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#135079 - 09/19/04 09:58 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi all

Where has your hostility come from Muay Thai?
I'm 32....but what does age or rank have to do with anything on a discussion forum?
Are you trying to pull rank?
If so, I humbly bow to you.....obviously my post hit a nerve there.....no offence intended....

Now....I do not claim to be an expert on thai boxing....I do not pretend to be one either. I admire your knowledge of the Thai arts....It's inspiring.....that's for sure....I have a passing interest in Muay Thai and practice many techniques from Muay Thai in my current system (no system)...I haven't overly studied the last 2000 years in relation to Muay Thai....but I know what I see today.....and what I see today is a sport.
I have a different perception to you on many things....I respect yours....I humbly ask that you respect mine...

Sparring is only important in the sporting paradigm...it has no use anywhere else....yes it can create vision....but sparring is not the only way. I prefer muscle memory...so that the average citizen can protect them selves under an adrenal dump.....your point about many people never being in a street fight is valid.....but martial artists should be confident that what they use will protect them...as I mentioned....muay thai will protect you against a certain opponent....not all.

Stick and move will not aid any commando or SAS soldier in what there objective is...the main objective is to incapacitate the assailant....not out score the opponent.

Commado's do not spar! Practicing drills is not sparring....I feel that there is a difference...in fact practicing drills can be linked to kata...there are set movements, set patterns, although drill work can also be done in a spontaneous manner.....I still believe that it's not sparring. (my view)

The reason that Elite soldiers do not spar is because sparring teaches bad habits in relation to hand to hand combat....the distancing is wrong....there are moments in sparring where both opponents do not engage .....there is no follow through....there is an obligation to protect your sparring partner......Soldiers need to be programmed in a different way...touch contact sparring is useless....infact, full contact ring fighting is also useless to their objective...one of the things that military hand to hand combat teaches is finger/hand dismemberment..."hands produce weapons"...so incapaciting hands/fingers is a common drill.....how can you spar using these techniques...I believe that this type of drill is not sparring....there is not a leg check to be seen....there is no jab or hook here.....no points....there is no round and there is no rules...

If you consider drill work to be a form of sparring....that is your opinion and you are entitled to it....but I have my own views and I feel that drill work and sparring are two completely different things...

You mentioned that no one want's to get hurt at training....of course this is true...so how can you spar using techniques that a taught to kill??? It would be very dangerous to use killer techniques in an unrehearshed "spar"..

Once again I maintain that it is dangerous, and somewhat naive to think that ring sports are self defence systems.....yes you can use boxing and kick boxing to protect yourself....but not against everyone.....(just to make a point....you can blind anyone by poking them in the eyes.....you won't always drop everyone using a low leg kick)...I like to train for the most difficult situation....in the hope that it never arrises.....What if there is a 200kg (not sure what that is in pounds) monster (maybe a kickboxer) that has an upper body as large as a house.....wanting to beat me up....what if I can't get out of the confrontation....what if my adrenaline dump has me unclear......what will I have to rely on in this case....I don't think it will be my kickboxing skills.....what ever is programmed into my muscle memory will be my response under these conditions.......
If that happens to be touch contact sparring....I'm in trouble.....

Oh....and another point, most if not all ring sports are one on one......what about if there is 2 of these monsters....what then?
No sarcasm intended....just making a point....
It was not my intention to put down muay thai in any way....I love the sport myself....I did however want to make the distinction between, a sport and ....and reality based training...

It's all about perception
The Wolf

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#135080 - 09/20/04 03:21 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Oh....and another point, most if not all ring sports are one on one......what about if there is 2 of these monsters[/QUOTE]

Pearmount I think it was in Sydney Australia, two people in one go, I won and one had a stick. I used Muay Thai THE RING SPORT.

Drill sparring is not like Kata, it is where you litterally spar in a resisting manner a new technique then you spar (free spar) once you have developed that technique. Yes Commandos and SAS (you talking british here) do drills, of course they do. What do you think they do? just theoretically talk about their training then hope it works during conflict... mate, c'mon. haha.

Ring sport has its place in selfdefense. I know for 100%. You take an all round ring fighter with a years fight experience and pit him against a 3rd degree black belt in some system but the bb hasnt ever fought but he has like 20 years experience in training selfdefense, who do you think will win?

fighting is whats important. There is a slight difference between street fighting and comeptitive fighting, again I know I have been there done it and bought the T-shirt. Its funny how a ring sport always seems to help me out.

Sparring and resistance (be it in pad work or whatever) is the key to good training, this is what develops teh reflex needed to fight. Then fighting is what develops your ability to actually fight.... I totally disagree with you by saying sparring is usless... that is, in my opinion, utter nonsense. You may "humbly" learn the hard way some day. I think you need to fight a trained ring fighter on the dreaded street to fully understand how effective these ring fighters can actually be on the street. I have heard this arguement a bajillion times, usually from people who have never competed so have absolute ZERO knowledge of what its like to either fight in a ring and with someone highly skilled and not to mention very fit. I have fought inside and outside... to me the risks are higher outside the ring but the hitting is the same

goodluck with your theroy training.

My post may seem aggressive, well sorry about that. I aint but if you want to look at that way feel free to do so.

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#135081 - 09/20/04 10:39 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


The guy with the stick must not of trained with sticks.

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#135082 - 09/20/04 05:43 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I’m getting into this one…..

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Now....I do not claim to be an expert on thai boxing....I do not pretend to be one either. I admire your knowledge of the Thai arts....It's inspiring.....that's for sure....I have a passing interest in Muay Thai and practice many techniques from Muay Thai in my current system (no system)...I haven't overly studied the last 2000 years in relation to Muay Thai....but I know what I see today.....and what I see today is a sport.

Sorry to have to disagree with your view of “sport”. Sport training is CRITICAL for fighting ability. Why? Because it creates PERFORMANCE ABILITY, something completely lacking in dead patterns and dead training methods.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Sparring is only important in the sporting paradigm...it has no use anywhere else....
[/QUOTE]

Unless of course, one’s ability to perform,(i.e., execute technique against an alive, resisting opponent is important) – then sparring becomes VERY important.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

yes it can create vision....but sparring is not the only way. I prefer muscle memory...so that the average citizen can protect them selves under an adrenal dump.....
[/QUOTE]

Ah yes, muscle memory. It’s assumed that thousands of repetitions of a technique can create muscle memory, but, when it’s trained in a dead manner without the ALL important attribute of timing, then you might as well just hit a non moving makiwara all day long. You’ll achieve the same results – zero ability to fight.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Stick and move will not aid any commando or SAS soldier in what there objective is...the main objective is to incapacitate the assailant....not out score the opponent.
[/QUOTE]

Has nothing to DO with outscoring. It has EVERYTHING to do with dealing with someone that is actually FIGHTING BACK – something not addressed within “dead” training methods.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Commado's do not spar! Practicing drills is not sparring....I feel that there is a difference...in fact practicing drills can be linked to kata...there are set movements, set patterns, although drill work can also be done in a spontaneous manner.....I still believe that it's not sparring. (my view)
[/QUOTE]

If they do not spar, then their training is contrived – no matter how realistic the drills appear to be. If there is no sparring, there is no “real” resistance. If there is no real resistance, how can you expect the training to be realistic? Sparring isn’t training so much as it is TESTING your ability against non-compliant opposition, (although there IS an tremendous learning experience found in sparring). Sparring teaches what you are “capable” of doing when someone is fighting you back. It tests your ability to perform. Opting OUT of sparring is just a cop-out. Saying that your training is “for street only” is often just an excuse to not step up.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

The reason that Elite soldiers do not spar is because sparring teaches bad habits in relation to hand to hand combat....the distancing is wrong...
[/QUOTE]

How do you acquire proper distancing when using some “contrived” training method? And, how is THAT distance correct when a NON compliant opponent is offering real resistance? Can’t you see how contrary that thinking is?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

.there are moments in sparring where both opponents do not engage .....there is no follow through....there is an obligation to protect your sparring partner......Soldiers need to be programmed in a different way...touch contact sparring is useless....infact, full contact ring fighting is also useless to their objective...one of the things that military hand to hand combat teaches is finger/hand dismemberment...
[/QUOTE]

How do you go about practicing such techniques, if not by PRETENDING to do them? How can ANY amount of pretension create a reality? How can such “fantasy martial arts” produce realistic performance integrity?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

You mentioned that no one want's to get hurt at training....of course this is true...so how can you spar using techniques that a taught to kill??? It would be very dangerous to use killer techniques in an unrehearshed "spar"..
[/QUOTE]

SO, the option is to PRETEND to train, and have some false notion (not too mention false confidence) that pretend training is going to get it done in the real world. The fact is, anyone training in a pretend manner would be taken APART by a “sport” guy in the ring AND on the street. The reason is because of the attributes developed via alive training that CANNOT in any way, shape or form, be replicated through fantasy training.

Of course, street guys KNOW that they would get their asses handed to them in the ring. Then you end up hearing such utter nonsense as, “You might BEAT me with rules, but without rules I’d kick your…..”, and other such bullshit. The fact is, that without rules, the sport guys wouldn’t just “win”, they KILL the guy without performance ability.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Once again I maintain that it is dangerous, and somewhat naive to think that ring sports are self defence systems.....yes you can use boxing and kick boxing to protect yourself....but not against everyone.....(just to make a point....you can blind anyone by poking them in the eyes
[/QUOTE]

How do you know you can even HIT the eyes? What if you miss? Why can’t a boxer hit the eyes as well? Why is it always ASSumed that sport fighters can’t fight dirty? That kind of assumption can run up your hospital bills…


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

.....you won't always drop everyone using a low leg kick)...I like to train for the most difficult situation....in the hope that it never arrises.....What if there is a 200kg (not sure what that is in pounds) monster (maybe a kickboxer) that has an upper body as large as a house.....wanting to beat me up....what if I can't get out of the confrontation....what if my adrenaline dump has me unclear......what will I have to rely on in this case....I don't think it will be my kickboxing skills.....what ever is programmed into my muscle memory will be my response under these conditions.......
If that happens to be touch contact sparring....I'm in trouble.....
[/QUOTE]

If it happens to be training culled from dead patterns and PRETEND methods, you’re in even MORE trouble.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Oh....and another point, most if not all ring sports are one on one......what about if there is 2 of these monsters....what then?
[/QUOTE]

Well, honestly how you train your delivery systems is entirely up to the individual. It’s fairly easy for guys who train athletically (read, “sportively”) to add another person to the mix and train for that situation. It should go without saying that it’s unrealistic to believe that a lone individual is capable of defeating multiple skilled, conditioned, and committed attackers. This isn’t Hollywood…..(methinks someone’s been watching too many kung fu movies lately)


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

I did however want to make the distinction between, a sport and ....and reality based training...
[/QUOTE]

How one can make the argument that pretend training is realistic, and real training is pretend, is WAY beyond me.

-John

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#135083 - 09/20/04 05:55 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
One more quote to completely disassemble [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Even while in the Thai clinch.....why would I allow myself to "trade" knees and elbows...when I can poke my thumb through my opponents eye (this goes for ground grappling as well)......
[/QUOTE]

How would you do this from a good clinch, when your whole body will be completely controlled? How will it be possible when you haven’t the ability to use your arms in any effective way?

Now, when I clinch with you and have controlled your body, I’ll have free reign to launch whatever strikes I want, be they punches, elbows, knees, takedowns, or…..EYE GOUGING – all from the vantage point of a controlled tie-up. See the point?

As far as ground grappling is concerned, if you TRY to gouge the eyes, you’d only put your arms out of position and into peril. Obviously you’re not much of a grappler or you’d have known that already. Go ahead and try to gouge out a skilled grapplers eyes, lol. You’ll end up choked out or have your arms broken for trying.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

this is clearly not legal in the ring.....but we are not specifically talking about the ring....The Thai grapple is also the perfect position to have a judo type shoot performed on the grappler.....a sport mentality can be a problem at times....
[/QUOTE]

Not if you understood proper tie-ups. You’d realize that the forearm must be cleared before you can launch any kind of effective shot – but then again as I said previously, you’re obviously not a grappler and would have no understanding of such things.

Remember this tough guy – what you don’t know is what you’ll get beaten with. Clearly that is clinch and ground....

-John

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#135084 - 09/20/04 06:32 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


And here I was hoping that my first posts on this forum would get on your good side!!

I've read your posts before....and I like some of your points ....it's human nature to want to defend yourself....or your systems.....I can appreciate this....

But is there a need for the "tough guy" tag...and the derogatory tone.... I have in no way been disrespectful..... I choose not to operate at that level...
Many of your points are valid....however, I will not be swayed in my opinion by petty name calling John....

Do you get a kick out of the way you treat people.....was I fresh meat on the forum for you to attack....there are many ways to put your point accross.....the way you have chosen to address my points show's your character...once again, I choose not to operate at that level...
I thought and still think that there are points worthy of debate...however, I can see that I would need to take your petty verbal abuse along the way....and I choose not to!

Thanks for you time

The Wolf

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#135085 - 09/20/04 07:53 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


OK....but who said I was a combat guy....your pretty quick to judge aren't you?
I'm not a combat guy ....although I may practice their mind set to a small degree.

But it's interesting that you would label what is taught to our most elite soldiers and protectors as "bullshit"...
If this is the case John.....and everyone else is doing it wrong....(and no one else seems to have the same experience as you)....why don't you take the opportunity to offer your services to teach the various armies of the world to clinch and ground grapple.....

It never ceases to amaze ME how completely one eyed people can be....

The Wolf

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#135086 - 09/20/04 08:46 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

OK....but who said I was a combat guy....your pretty quick to judge aren't you?
[/QUOTE]

I can only go by your posts man. In those, you specify a "combat" approach vs. "sport" approach. What else am I to think?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

I'm not a combat guy ....although I may practice their mind set to a small degree.
[/QUOTE]

I'm not a combat guy either and I as well practice their mind-set to a small degree. Perhaps we've something in common.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

But it's interesting that you would label what is taught to our most elite soldiers and protectors as "bullshit"...
[/QUOTE]

I have trained alongside elite soldiers and I have had police and SWAT team guys training in my gym. I'm pretty familiar with their ranks. They all prefer to train alive, just like so many more of them do every day as they begin to see the shortcomings of dead patterns and compliant resistance.

It's interesting to note that they've all pretty much said the same things: That what you're taught in the service, is just enough to get you killed. I could not agree more with them.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

If this is the case John.....and everyone else is doing it wrong....
[/QUOTE]

Everyone IS NOT doing it wrong "The Wolf", (why is everyone having to use an alias around here???) as I spoke of briefly in my last paragraph. Many more such organizations are adopting alive (read, sportive/athletic training vs. resisting partners/opponents) methods of training. It's only common sense.

Certainly there are still places where LEO stuff and other such training uses dead patterns, etc., but this is surely being replaced with much more effecient methods found within combat sports.

WHY is it more efficient? For the simple reason that bad guys in the real world resist. They do not "play along" as people do when training dead patterns and kata. There is no room in the real world for contrived training methods.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

(and no one else seems to have the same experience as you)
[/QUOTE]

Oh but you're wrong. I'm just a flunky compared to some guys out there! Matt Thornton, Paul Sharp, Adam Singer, Luis Gutierrez, Tom Oberhue....the list goes ON and on, ALL can whip MY hiney, lol. That's a short list. A VERY short list.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

....why don't you take the opportunity to offer your services to teach the various armies of the world to clinch and ground grapple.....
[/QUOTE]

Those people I have mentioned already are. Trust me, word is getting out. Watch and see....


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:
It never ceases to amaze ME how completely one eyed people can be....

The Wolf
[/QUOTE]

By one-eyed, do you mean, experienced? Because, I have experienced BOTH methods which have been discussed here. That's why I have the perspective to label one less effective than the other. I trained using dead patterns and "combat drills" for most of my adult life. I'm 39 now. 8 years ago my training changed for the better when I was handed my ASS by a "sport" guy. I've never looked back.

And it gets better every day!


By the way, I thought we were going to be "nice"???


-John [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 09-20-2004).]

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#135087 - 09/20/04 08:49 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


OK so the thread is continuing to get carried away. Anyone interested in bringing it back on topic? Jeet Kune Do? System or Philosophy? it was going well for awhile and then kept getting distracted.
My view on the subject is that JKD is a philosophy that has been present in all martial arts for all time, when it comes to true effectiveness, Bruce Lee made the idea popular and named it, people started to study him, and then JKD became a style in and of itself, contradicting the entire principle behind it.
The idea of formlessness and using what one knows best is the ultimate end to martial arts. Being able to take everything one has learned and weed out all the pointless (to the individual) crap, and use whatever kept you alive on the battlefield. Scroll up to my post about the Roman army in this thread for elaboration.
Comments?

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#135088 - 09/20/04 08:57 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Threads are going to get hijacked every once in awhile. But it’s a good debate. Wolf, if you’d like to create another thread, please feel free. Or, to tsai's kung fu, please feel free as well.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

OK so the thread is continuing to get carried away. Anyone interested in bringing it back on topic? Jeet Kune Do? System or Philosophy? it was going well for awhile and then kept getting distracted.
[/QUOTE]

I think Lee clearly stated it himself by saying that he had in fact, NOT created another style.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

My view on the subject is that JKD is a philosophy that has been present in all martial arts for all time, when it comes to true effectiveness, Bruce Lee made the idea popular and named it, people started to study him, and then JKD became a style in and of itself, contradicting the entire principle behind it.
[/QUOTE]

I agree COMPLETELY with that sentiment! I will say however, that there are certain circles who do continue to live by the principles upon which JKD was founded. Those groups DO exist, but you do have to look for them.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

The idea of formlessness and using what one knows best is the ultimate end to martial arts. Being able to take everything one has learned and weed out all the pointless (to the individual) crap, and use whatever kept you alive on the battlefield. Scroll up to my post about the Roman army in this thread for elaboration.
Comments?
[/QUOTE]


Well said. But you see, the notion of "weeding out" the pointless CRAP, is the crux of the debate between "THE WOLF" and I. How else is a person to weed out if one doesn't TEST what it is he's learning? What's the acid test for one's technique and one's ability if not through competition of one form or another against an alive, resisting partner or opponent? The sportive, athletic approach IS the "battlefield"!


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 09-20-2004).]

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