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#135059 - 09/10/04 10:14 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Because the other person will be fighting you back and not just standing there. Iím telling you personally, that if a guy tried to kick me, that would be the last thing he did before his ass met the ground. Thatís a promise. Once there, he wouldnít be getting back up with the same amount of teeth he went down with.

What if Wanderlai Silva was attempting to kick you? Or someone of his caliber.

[This message has been edited by Lethal Striker (edited 09-10-2004).]

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#135060 - 09/10/04 12:19 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm not arguing with you John, there are of course many other options. I'm not saying stay solely to kicking. Just that kicks should not be completely discounted. I have been in many fights, and i have used kicks and won. I would never throw a kick above the waist. It's only low kicks that really work in a fight, high kicks are slow and throw you off balance, but a kick that never gets higher than the waist, including the chamber comes twice as fast as a kick that comes high. I guess to sum up my entire point, a nice strong low kick to the roots of any person, coming while they are distracted blocking high, will more often than not, end the confrontation. Maybe I just haven't been in enough fights with stone cold psychotic well trained killing machines who can fight like cornered wild animals that can chew their arms and legs off and then tear through their captor. I'm talking about the person most people end up fighting, the drunk idiot on Saturday night who just wont accept an apology and has to look tough in front of his friends and girlfriend.

By the way, I'm not an arm chair martial artist, I'm the Administrative Director of Tsai's Kung Fu International, I work out about 3 hours a day 5-6 days a week. I'm by no means a master, but I can handle my own, and I would never suggest something unless I have tried it and found it to be true. Low kicks have saved my butt quite a few times, maybe it's just because I have long, fast, legs. But then isn't that the point of JKD, Taking what you know, and through experience, utilizing whatever works best for you?

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#135061 - 09/10/04 08:26 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lethal Striker:
"Because the other person will be fighting you back and not just standing there. Iím telling you personally, that if a guy tried to kick me, that would be the last thing he did before his ass met the ground. Thatís a promise. Once there, he wouldnít be getting back up with the same amount of teeth he went down with."

What if Wanderlai Silva was attempting to kick you? Or someone of his caliber.
[/QUOTE]


Well first off, I canít beat everyone. Silva is a pro fighter with incredible attributes. But, heís not as much a kicker as many think. He does throw a few, but itís not his kicking that puts people away. Itís his punching and his knees. Iíll take my chances with a pure kickboxer any day.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

I'm not arguing with you John, there are of course many other options. I'm not saying stay solely to kicking.
[/QUOTE]

Nor am I arguing with you. Iím not saying to never throw a kick. As such I would never completely discount them. My arguments against them have already been made and I stand by them. I wonít go through them again just to try and hammer a point home.

Test everything you do against ďqualityĒ opponents in all ranges.


-John

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#135062 - 09/14/04 12:50 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
http://cruciblegym.tripod.com/id48.htm

John, when you train clinch do you allow for neck position like in the picture above or is this just the way you guys do it?

Also, I couldnt help but notice how to footing, forgive me for saying this, is a little short, is this normal procedure in your style of clinch grappling and if so why?

It looks like you guys ar drilling plumm and knee strike.

I might, on Saturday, get a lend of a digital camera and get a few positions for you to try out.... dont worry I am genuinely not trying to pick at you.

I am a little confident that theres a few techniques I could share with ya.

...by the way, you dont look that old [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

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#135063 - 09/14/04 05:36 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
Iím not knocking kicking overall. I AM saying however, that itís the weakest choice of fighting tools that are available. Sure, you may have some power in the legs, but the costs overrun the benefits. They are slower to move, slower to use in combinations (especially compared to hands), the upset your base, they limit your countersÖ..what more do I need to say?[/QUOTE]


I think this must be one of the most ignorant (no offence and I'm sure I wont offend you [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]) comments yet.

[QUOTE]itís the weakest choice of fighting tools that are available[/QUOTE] for you!!! and anyone who cannot kick!

Fact remains, if you know how to kick well, hard and fast it wont be as easy as [QUOTE]if a guy tried to kick me, that would be the last thing he did before his ass met the ground. Thatís a promise. Once there, he wouldnít be getting back up with the same amount of teeth he went down with.[/QUOTE]

how do you know that? we "kickers", especially the Thai kind (well at least those who train authentic Thai fighting) train long and hard at nuetralisations, takedowns from leg catch and counters to leg catch. Have you really ever been with a man who can kick well? I doubt that very much Jay with you previous comments.

I have seen a man being KO'd in a Night Club called Bubbles (many who have been to chaing Mai will know this notorious night club) by a high roundhouse to the face! Thats standing cold, kicking high and fast with power and being intoxicated. I myself have absolute ZERO problems with kicking cold, I can litterally wake up out of bed and kick a bag and make it look good.

The weakest choice of fighting tools available are not roundhouse kicks thats a complete ignorant comment John. Honestly mate, I think you gotta train with someone who can kick, I think you gotta spar with someone who can actually kick well and you'll probably be saying "hmm... well you know what maybe I was wrong in assuming that would be the last thing he did before his ass met the ground".

Thats a stupid comment. Sorry man, it is.

There are half arsed kickers and then there are kickers. A good kicker can use his legs like you can your hands.

Its not as easy to catch a leg, mate you can be a professional wrestler for all I care but it is not as easy when I know thats what you will try to do, there are only so many ways to catch a leg and we know them all!

You should know that the more you think about attempting something the more of a chance you wont do it.

rule number one make him think I will then do different!

You can catch the leg of a half arsed kicker and do what you want. I am VERY confident you have not sparred or fought with a good kicker.

You say some really great stuff then you say stuff that really is odd to hear.

[QUOTE]Sure, you may have some power in the legs, but the costs overrun the benefits. They are slower to move, slower to use in combinations (especially compared to hands), the upset your base, they limit your countersÖ..what more do I need to say?[/QUOTE]

aw man, haha. some power!!! haha, dude if you aint conditioned to take a full powered kick to your leg you are going down!! Many a MMA student with no conditioning of the legs FEELS those low kicks and does not like them one bit. Many a man has been killed outright with leg kicks, kidneys burst, brains rolled, ribs broken, arms broken, legs broken... nah man kicks are very weak indeed! yep kicks are very slow indeed, so slow infact that they simply just do them for sheer fun in a professional Thaiboxing fight, so slow that the fighters just allow each other to get killed and seriously injured by them becaus ethey look good and dont really have much power....

[QUOTE]slower to use in combinations (especially compared to hands), the upset your base, they limit your countersÖ..what more do I need to say[/QUOTE]

I have here plenty of fights where good punchers have found it very difficult keeping it up with good kickers, I have fights here where GOOD punchers have their weapons taken from them by good kickers a good puncher cannot not harm a good kickers weapons of choice, arms can ponly take so much puncihment before they decide to stop working... you should know that if you have fought NHB and anything which has ALL ranges of fighting.

as for the counters and combos, utter crap man. I cannot believe what I am reading. there are 15-25 hit combos (not that I'd do them but that is an example) where kicking is part or the hits.

ok.... It would have been better if you said "I personally find that due to my lack of ability to kick well kicking for me and my students is OUR weakest area in fighting"

because if kicking was so weak and slow it would not be in Muay Thai fights and remember in a Muay Thai fight leg catch and takedown from catch is a favored technique by majority of Pro Muay fighters.

Kicking is strong, fast and very useful to disable and obliterate your opponent. Punching is useful but by no means does it compare to kicking, together punching and kicking are awsome tools.

I dunno.

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#135064 - 09/14/04 05:49 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
If you want my opinions regardining kicking -- DON'T kick! See what I mean? As far as hand techniques, choose those they you can reasonably spar with. If there are some that you can't spar with, limit your time with them -- you don't want huge time investments in "theory-based" technique or "vital point" strikes.


-John

[/QUOTE]

My advice as an active fighter is, DO KICK but make sure you bring those hands up before landing a nicely targeted low roundhouse to the thigh, aaahh the sweet tears of pain and agony, or if you want bring thos ehands up with a few short punches and then slam a hard earned roundkick to the mid section... hmm... I do believe I will be saying to someone lying on the ground "breath man you'll be ok in a moment"

Learn to kick well, dont just half arse it for the sake of it but learn it well. Its an art form and a devastating art at that. Used as follow up or part of a combonation it can end fights pretty damn quickly. without them you are just removing one powerful weapon, why would anyone want to do that?? I suppose those who simply cannopt get it or dont want to spend the time developing a "good" kick prefer to stick to punching.

1 hour a day kicking, being coached by a quality kicker, working punch kick combos, low kick combos "through target" low round kicks which will litterally take you off the ground if you dont know what it is or when it is coming. Kidney kicks, inside leg kicks followed by punch combos...


....John man how the hell can you say such nonsense??? its beyond me.

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#135065 - 09/14/04 07:24 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
How can I say it muay Thai???

Easily in three words -- highly efficent grapplers.

Besides, in most crowded barrooms and nightclubs here in the US, you simply won't have a great deal of room to move around. They are dark, crowded with people AND furniture, making it difficult to maintain balance TO BEGIN WITH, nevermind when you're attempting a KICK.

Personal preference; leave the feet on the ground.


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 09-14-2004).]

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#135066 - 09/14/04 07:49 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Honestly John, in some clubs, you can't even move to order a drink. You're not that old, are you?

If you have got the room to grapple , you can kick.

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#135067 - 09/14/04 08:40 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

Honestly John, in some clubs, you can't even move to order a drink. You're not that old, are you?
[/QUOTE]

This, I realize. Yes, I'm old as well [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

If you have got the room to grapple , you can kick.
[/QUOTE]

Standing grappling requires little room, nor does boxing. I still prefer in either case to keep the feet on the floor where I can use them for what they were intended.


-John



[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 09-14-2004).]

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#135068 - 09/15/04 04:01 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
if I can touch you I can kick you. If you know how to kick right you can kick a person without a problem, where you target is entirely up to you. When I extend my lead arm and touch whoever there is with it I can kick them.

Its a very easy thing to do and shouldnt be thought of as difficult. Its understandable why people chose not to do it... when a person is proficient at kicking then there are no worries about doing it. Obviously you think when and where you will hit but thats with everything.

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