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#135049 - 09/08/04 08:55 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow, what an interesting thread!

Chen you posted earlier in this thread and wrote that you only use about 10 hand strikes and about 4 different kicks. What would these be? As a beginner should I learn as much as possible and once I have a good base narrow it down to say 4 kicks. Or should I pick 4 kicks and focus on them solely?
If everyone, not only Chen, offer there input I would greatly appreciate it!!

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#135050 - 09/08/04 03:17 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
JKD is the system of no system.

To understand this, realize that the notion of 'styles' is bullshit. A style is but a slice of reality.

A style implies a beginning and an end. A style is defined as much by what it isn't as what it is. A style has a beginning and an end. Otherwise it wouldn't BE a style as it would have no way of comparing itself against other styles. In other words, there would have to be differences between a style and another style. If there are no differences, then there are no styles. In reality, there ARE no differences because, we only have two arms and two legs. There are only so many ways of hitting, joint locking and just little infinitesimal variations between them.

JKD is different for everyone. This main idea is, JKD cannot be taught, only discovered. It's a process and not a product. A teacher simply cannot teach you how to be you -- only you can do that. He can show you HOW to discover this and ultimately thats what a good coach will do.

I can show you technique. I can coach that technique and provide the environment for you to train it, but ultimately whether it becomes something you absorb or reject is up to you. However, JKD is NOT ABOUT specific techniques, because, anything that WORKS FOR YOU is a JKD technique. The key being, that YOU can make it work. Lee said after all that, "efficiency is anything that scores".

Lee realized that most fighting arts try to paint a picture of fighting as some sort of rocket science. He understood that fighting is just a natural act that becomes contrived and made rigid, pouring this natural state into a mold of what we think and believe fighting "should be like". When this happens it becomes contrived instead of natural. This is what most formal styles of martial arts become -- contrived and unnatural.

Lee sought to do the opposite and free his followers from forms, dead patterns and other contrived molds. He wanted them to just experience the "what is" of fighting and to develop themselves as fighters accordingly.

Sure we know that there are right ways of doing things and wrong ways of doing things. We know this because we have engaged in the "what is" of fighting with resisting, alive, opponents. We have seen and experienced firsthand the truth in combat. And this is what JKD is all about. And it's also why it is different for each individual, because truthfully no two people are never going to fight the same way. So is there really a system, or is there not?

...but what do I know....we're all just children along the path .


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 09-07-2004).]
[/QUOTE]

So if Bruce Lee believed that whatever works for a person is a jkd technique then why did he contridict himself by teaching againsed using many techniques and training methods of other styles such as kata and the stances of traditional arts like karate, when thos methods undoutedly work for some peoplr?

Also,I think Bruce Lee underestimated the importance of such things as kata which can be almost essential training tools when the meaning of the kata are understood. Traditional techniques are very effective and useful when used in the right context.
Bruce lee was only exposed to the sporterized forms of karate and so didn't understand the real purpose and meaning of kata and other traditional methods.
Although I do admit he was very succesful in training people and his philosphy of using only what is useful and discarding the rest is much better than being confind to a set of techniques.
(sorry for the long read)

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#135051 - 09/08/04 03:46 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


No offense to jkd practitioners(if there is such a thing)but the philosophy of jkd is the MA version of hedinism. Hedinism-if it feels good do it
jkd-do what you want if you like it and it works for you.
Again no offense to jkd practitioners

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#135052 - 09/08/04 05:05 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stormdragon:

So if Bruce Lee believed that whatever works for a person is a jkd technique then why did he contridict himself by teaching againsed using many techniques and training methods of other styles such as kata and the stances of traditional arts like karate, when thos methods undoutedly work for some peoplr?
[/QUOTE]

I said that JKD wasn’t about specific techniques, meaning that JKD isn’t limited to certain things. Lee preached that some things work better than others, but if I person could do something, it’s senseless to change him IF (and that’s a big if) it was a benefit and not a detriment.

The method is more important. Lee himself said that JKD wasn’t “about petty technique”. It’s HOW you train more so than WHAT you train. In this manner, it’s easy to see that some techniques aren’t going to make the cut. This is because aliveness (which Lee believed in) shows what is possible for a person to execute and what isn’t.

Lee didn’t believe in dead patterns and forms, especially during the latter years. That’s why those things weren’t practiced. Those aren’t techniques so much as they are dance moves.

The stances and forms of karate, kung fu, etc., etc., are ultimately shown to be ineffectual within the crucible of alive training. For this reason they aren’t practiced. It’s a matter of SHOWING what isn’t workable and not just relying on theory. Much technique falls by the wayside when held up to the light in this manner. Much was dropped by former classically trained practitioners. Those techniques mentioned would not have made the cut. Again, if it had worked, it would not have been discarded. But as I said, this has to be shown instead of just being theorized over.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stormdragon:

Also,I think Bruce Lee underestimated the importance of such things as kata which can be almost essential training tools when the meaning of the kata are understood. Traditional techniques are very effective and useful when used in the right context.
[/QUOTE]

Kata = dead patterns. There is NO person now, living or dead, who needs to do kata or ANY other form to become an effective fighter. In fact, kata can get in the way of becoming an effective fighter due to wasted time. This can be logically seen in the fact that no boxers, wrestlers, BJJ fighters or MMA guys ever do kata and yet have succeedly wildly in routinely defeating classical martial artists in MMA events.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stormdragon:

Bruce lee was only exposed to the sporterized forms of karate and so didn't understand the real purpose and meaning of kata and other traditional methods.
[/QUOTE]

Again, kata serves no purpose in the development of fighting ability and can actually detract from it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stormdragon:

Although I do admit he was very succesful in training people and his philosphy of using only what is useful and discarding the rest is much better than being confind to a set of techniques.
(sorry for the long read)
[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Discarding what doesn’t work and keeping only what does is important, but it’s ultimately an individual’s place to determine this.


-John

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#135053 - 09/08/04 07:06 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lethal Striker:
Wow, what an interesting thread!

Chen you posted earlier in this thread and wrote that you only use about 10 hand strikes and about 4 different kicks. What would these be? As a beginner should I learn as much as possible and once I have a good base narrow it down to say 4 kicks. Or should I pick 4 kicks and focus on them solely?
If everyone, not only Chen, offer there input I would greatly appreciate it!!
[/QUOTE]

You're going to get as many different opinions as the people that you ask. If you want my opinions regardining kicking -- DON'T kick! See what I mean? As far as hand techniques, choose those they you can reasonably spar with. If there are some that you can't spar with, limit your time with them -- you don't want huge time investments in "theory-based" technique or "vital point" strikes.


-John

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#135054 - 09/08/04 09:02 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


I would have to disagree with the don't kick comment. There is nothing better than punching high and bringing your opponents guard up, and then immediately slamming a stomp kick to their knees. The opponent is normally so focused on what's coming at his upper body they aren't ready for their knee to get smashed. Try a cutting round house to the knee or any stomp kick to the ankle. Even more effective on the street is a nice sharp toe kick to the shin (providing you have strong shoes on), Think of how much it hurts to bump your shin into the corner of a low table in the middle of the night, Now imagine that table coming at you at a devastating speed with intent behind it, or grinding your foot straight down the shin and ripping up the skin. Kicks are very effective when low and often come as a complete surprise. I don't know anyone who can fight with broken knees, shredded shins, and twisted (or smashed) ankles.

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#135055 - 09/09/04 05:57 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

I would have to disagree with the don't kick comment. There is nothing better than punching high and bringing your opponents guard up, and then immediately slamming a stomp kick to their knees.
[/QUOTE]

I have a few questions for you:

1. How do you PRACTICE this move?
2. Wouldn’t you prefer hands over feet? Doesn’t it seem like a good idea to use our feet for what they’re for (moving around) instead of lifting one leg off the ground where your base becomes unstable?
3. Have you never tried to kick someone in the knee and it FAILED?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

The opponent is normally so focused on what's coming at his upper body they aren't ready for their knee to get smashed.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, if they’re knees are flexed, they won’t GET smashed. They only way one can really “smash” someone’s knees is if they are standing straight as a bone and have locked their legs out. No one I have ever SEEN fights that way though. A FLEXED knee is a HARD knee to smash.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

Try a cutting round house to the knee or any stomp kick to the ankle. Even more effective on the street is a nice sharp toe kick to the shin (providing you have strong shoes on),
[/QUOTE]

I would disagree. Have you ever heard of the “adrenaline rush”? It makes a person’s pain tolerance go through the roof. I would suggest trying to knock a guy out instead of just trying to “hurt” him a little.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

Think of how much it hurts to bump your shin into the corner of a low table in the middle of the night, Now imagine that table coming at you at a devastating speed with intent behind it, or grinding your foot straight down the shin and ripping up the skin.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, and I have zero adrenaline pumping in the middle of the night either. It makes a HUGE difference. If someone kicks me in the shin, I’d probably feel it AFTER the fight, or tomorrow or something, but not during. You’re going to have to knock me out to get me to quit fighting. There are no such knock-out points on the shins. Wouldn’t you rather have them quit fighting altogether instead of NOW being only more enraged and wanting to tear your head off? I know I would.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

Kicks are very effective when low and often come as a complete surprise. I don't know anyone who can fight with broken knees, shredded shins, and twisted (or smashed) ankles.
[/QUOTE]

See, there you go again with theory. Sure, those shots look good on paper, but you’re taking the HUMAN FACTOR out of the equation by stating such things as; “I don’t know ANYONE who can fight…”, etc. Let me tell you something – I DO! I know a guy who got his forearm broke blocking a punch. Do you know what he did? He ended up knocking the other guy out! I could tell you a LOT of stories about REAL tough people doing some amazing things; while having been stabbed and shot!!! If THAT doesn’t make a person quit fighting, little pissy kicks to the shins aren’t going to.

It would probably be a good idea to actually KNOW of what you speak before going out into internet land and talking about things that you’re not really sure of, and trying to advise others of things you’ve either never tried, or haven’t tried on enough people. Just some friendly advice. That's why I say, TEST EVERYTHING. But you can't just test it once and it expect such stuff to work on everyone you meet. That's more than dangerous.


-John



[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 09-09-2004).]

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#135056 - 09/09/04 09:23 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks for the advice John!!!

Would it be useful for me to use a kick sort of like a jab? Not a knockout but a mans to an end.

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#135057 - 09/09/04 03:59 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow, you were pretty adamant about that John.

You missed my point though. Kicking low when someone is blocking high. How do you cut down a tree, not at the top, but from the bottom. How do you bring down a tall building, best bet is to blow out it's supports, near it's base. How do you topple over a table, take out one of it's legs. Go for the roots, that was my point, it doesn't matter what you do to them, as long as they are gone. Why would I waste my time trading punches with someone who is guarding their head and upper body, why do I need to try and get through their guard when they have a perfectly open pair of legs. Joints are easily broken, no matter how much you think you can avoid it. Let someone hit you in the knee with a baseball bat and see if you can still get up and chase them. I don't care how much adrenaline you have, if you can't stand up.

Where do you get off insulting me?

I'm not spouting theory, I'm talking about what hurts. 7 out of 10 times in a fight, not a tournament, you end up against some idiot who watches boxing and Kung fu movies and such and that's all they know, why do you need to knock them out when you can just disable them. I'll tell you, when you're in a crowded bar or something along that line, and there are a bunch of witnesses the last thing you want is for everyone to be telling the cops you just off and whaled on some guy, knocking his teeth out and splattering blood everywhere. No I would and have always prefered to be a bit more discreet. These at home martial artists and fighters just wont know what hit them. It's the element of surprise. Sure they can block out the pain when they are expecting it, but if they swing at your head and end up on the ground grabbing their knee, ankle, whatever, they wont get back up, unless they are crazy or wasted, and at that point, what the hell are you still doing standing there?

Maybe smash was the wrong word, dislocate might be better. I'm not talking about destroying the knee, just disabling it, same concept as dislocating the shoulder or elbow, if it cannot be moved, it cannot hurt you.

Oh and you practice this move or any move like this on someone holding a 100 lb heavy bag on the ground, against the leg, if you can bend the heavy bag and make your partners knee turn in, you can probably go through the average persons leg. With a stomp kick, didn't you ever lean a 2x4 against a wal and try to break it in half by stomping on it when you were a kid. And why would your base become unstable if you have decent balance and know how to kick properly, plus i'm not talking about standing there and sticking one leg behind your head, I mean, lifting your knee to your waste and just driving your body weight through the leg with your heal, nice, fast, and efficient. Done right, it's just like taking a step, only their leg ends up under foot. Go at an angle, and your set. Come on use some common sense. For a JKD practitioner you sure seem to be stuck in a mold. No offense. Thanks for your input though.

[This message has been edited by tsai's kung fu (edited 09-09-2004).]

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#135058 - 09/09/04 07:05 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

Wow, you were pretty adamant about that John.
[/QUOTE]

I was hoping I’d not sounded harsh – the internet has a way of overly dramatizing what we type.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

You missed my point though. Kicking low when someone is blocking high. How do you cut down a tree, not at the top, but from the bottom. How do you bring down a tall building, best bet is to blow out it's supports, near it's base. How do you topple over a table, take out one of it's legs. Go for the roots, that was my point, it doesn't matter what you do to them, as long as they are gone. Why would I waste my time trading punches with someone who is guarding their head and upper body, why do I need to try and get through their guard when they have a perfectly open pair of legs. Joints are easily broken, no matter how much you think you can avoid it. Let someone hit you in the knee with a baseball bat and see if you can still get up and chase them. I don't care how much adrenaline you have, if you can't stand up.
[/QUOTE]

A baseball bat and a kick are two different things. Besides, you have to HIT me with either first before I’ll go down. Sounds like an oversimplification but it’s not.

I understand your points but I just feel that there are a lot of better ways to go about dealing with an opponent than by picking up the feet. Not a whole lot is going to change my opinion on that.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

Where do you get off insulting me?
[/QUOTE]

Where did I insult you? About spouting theory? If the shoe fits wear it. It sounded to me as if you were spouting theory and I called you on it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

I'm not spouting theory, I'm talking about what hurts. 7 out of 10 times in a fight, not a tournament, you end up against some idiot who watches boxing and Kung fu movies and such and that's all they know, why do you need to knock them out when you can just disable them.
[/QUOTE]

But again, how do you PRACTICE these tactics? You’ve not bothered to answer this question yet.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

I'll tell you, when you're in a crowded bar or something along that line, and there are a bunch of witnesses the last thing you want is for everyone to be telling the cops you just off and whaled on some guy, knocking his teeth out and splattering blood everywhere. No I would and have always prefered to be a bit more discreet.
[/QUOTE]

Personally, I’m not going to be “picky” about how I go about dismantling someone, if the situation came down to that. The “real world” (as so many of the so-called ‘street’ guys like to put it) doesn’t offer such pleasant choices.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

These at home martial artists and fighters just wont know what hit them. It's the element of surprise. Sure they can block out the pain when they are expecting it, but if they swing at your head and end up on the ground grabbing their knee, ankle, whatever, they wont get back up, unless they are crazy or wasted, and at that point, what the hell are you still doing standing there?
[/QUOTE]

Sounds great on paper and, quite easy to do from behind a keyboard. Of course, arm-chair martial artists ALWAYS talk about “what they would do to this guy, or to that guy”. It’s just all so easy. Just cut and paste fighting.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

Maybe smash was the wrong word, dislocate might be better. I'm not talking about destroying the knee, just disabling it, same concept as dislocating the shoulder or elbow, if it cannot be moved, it cannot hurt you.
[/QUOTE]

How do you practice it? How do you know, to what degree, it will be effective?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

Oh and you practice this move or any move like this on someone holding a 100 lb heavy bag on the ground, against the leg, if you can bend the heavy bag and make your partners knee turn in, you can probably go through the average persons leg.
[/QUOTE]

Finally an answer, and it’s what I figured you’d say. Ever heard the expression, “Boards don’t hit back”? Well there you have it guy. Standing there and kicking a stationary target and thinking that it’s how you’re going to pull it off in a fight.

Nice try. Can I have your stereo?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

With a stomp kick, didn't you ever lean a 2x4 against a wal and try to break it in half by stomping on it when you were a kid.
[/QUOTE]

No. I never planned on fighting sticks and boards.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

And why would your base become unstable if you have decent balance and know how to kick properly…
[/QUOTE]

Because the other person will be fighting you back and not just standing there. I’m telling you personally, that if a guy tried to kick me, that would be the last thing he did before his ass met the ground. That’s a promise. Once there, he wouldn’t be getting back up with the same amount of teeth he went down with.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:


…plus i'm not talking about standing there and sticking one leg behind your head, I mean, lifting your knee to your waste and just driving your body weight through the leg with your heal, nice, fast, and efficient. Done right, it's just like taking a step, only their leg ends up under foot. Go at an angle, and your set. Come on use some common sense.
[/QUOTE]

I’m not knocking kicking overall. I AM saying however, that it’s the weakest choice of fighting tools that are available. Sure, you may have some power in the legs, but the costs overrun the benefits. They are slower to move, slower to use in combinations (especially compared to hands), the upset your base, they limit your counters…..what more do I need to say?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

For a JKD practitioner you sure seem to be stuck in a mold. No offense. Thanks for your input though.

[/QUOTE]

Yep, the mold of time, knowledge and most importantly, experience of the “what is”. No offense taken. Your points just speak of the lack of the aforementioned. No offense.


-John

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