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#135029 - 08/13/04 09:45 PM JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


You know, i have heard and seen so many people who claim to study JKD as a style. Is'nt JKD more of a philosophy, the abandoment of a system, using what works effectively, no matter what system it came from. Am I wrong to think that JKD should not be considered a system in and of itself, but more of a philosophy that should be followed by the practitioner? How you you rely on a system that is all about abandoning a system. Don't get me wrong I love the concept of it, the ideals behind it, everything about it, I just have problems calling JKD a system, and I'm not sure that Bruce Lee would disagree with me. Granted it had to be named a system for recognition, but i believe that that was the only reason it became a system. I really am interested in what the forum members have to say about this and I eagerly await replies, but please keep it serious, I think this is a very big issue in the MA world and very open to debate.

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#135030 - 08/13/04 10:08 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
How about this quote from Lee himself:


[QUOTE]

On JKD not being a style

I have not invented a "new style," composite, modified or otherwise that is set within distinct form as apart from "this" method or "that" method. On the contrary, I hope to free my followers from clinging to styles, patterns, or molds. Remember that Jeet Kune Do is merely a name used, a mirror in which to see "ourselves". . . Jeet Kune Do is not an organized institution that one can be a member of. Either you understand or you don't, and that is that.

...Finally, a Jeet Kune Do man who says Jeet Kune Do is exclusively Jeet Kune Do is simply not with it. He is still hung up on his self-closing resistance, in this case anchored down to reactionary pattern, and naturally is still bound by another modified pattern and can move within its limits. He has not digested the simple fact that truth exists outside all molds; pattern and awareness is never exclusive.

Again let me remind you Jeet Kune Do is just a name used, a boat to get one across, and once across it is to be discarded and not to be carried on one's back.
[/QUOTE]


I think that sums it all up. If the creator says JKD isn't a style, then it's not a style.

-John

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#135031 - 08/14/04 02:53 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


You guys are both right. Bruce Lee himself said: "Learning Jeet Kune Do is not a matter of seeking knowledge or accumulating stylized pattern, but discovering the cause of ignorance" - Tao of Jeet Kune Do, Bruce Lee

JKD is whatever you make of it, what ever you bring to it. Eg. I have done Karate and ninjitsu,I am doing muay thai and Capoeira.

My "style" is taking the best from all my different experiences. Flexibility and fluint movements from Capoeira , channeling of power from Karate, pressure points and limb breaking techniques from ninjitsu, physical conditioning and strong kicks from muay thai. Taking all this and forming my own JKD, my own "style".

I think people who refers to JKD as a style has "sheep mentality" of doing this when that happens etc. which goes totally against Bruce Lee's philosophy of style of no style, beoming, as he puts it, autonomous robots and not self aware. I better stop here, coz I can keep going for ages. Best of luck to you fellow martial artists. May you have the courage to change what you can and the strength to accept the things you cannot
Axè

- Carlo

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#135032 - 08/14/04 03:37 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


JKogas:

I checked out your homepage, listed under your profile. I notice that you teach JKD. Since I can't figure another way to ask this, what do you teach? Or, what might one of your class workouts consist of (minus warm up)?

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#135033 - 08/14/04 09:50 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
What we "teach" are the three ranges of stand-up fighting (formerly kicking and punching ranges), clinch fighting (formerly "trapping" range) and ground fighting (formerly "ground" fighting, oddly enough, lol) as is normally taught within most JKD curriculums.

We have found through experience, that certain delivery systems work more efficiently to train these ranges than do others.

For us these are: (mind you, we use the more useful elements from these systems)

*Stand-up: Western boxing, muay Thai and savate.

*Clinch: Greco-Roman and freestyle wrestling, muay Thai and elements of judo.

*Ground: Brazilian jiu-jitsu (almost entirely) along with western wrestling and catch-as-catch-can.

*Weapons: Stick fighting and empty hand knife/blunt instrument defenses.

That answers the technical question about 'what' we train, but I'd like to also give a little insight into 'how' we train as well.

There are several ways in which we might structure our classes. Regardless, you can guarantee that you'll be training (in an alive manner) to deal with punching, clinching and ground fighting. Sometimes (depending on the class) we will isolate ranges to work certain things more. In other words, just training stand-up, just training the clinch or the ground.

For example, you may come in and work on nothing but punching and kicking (again, the punching of western boxing and the kicking of muay Thai and savate). Since we value having better "hand" skills than "foot" skills, we will isolate the boxing range during training more than the kicking.

But that depends as well. There are an infinite number of variables that you can apply to training and drilling, limited only by a coaches imagination. For example; sometimes when we're training a guys hand skills on the focus pads, he has to be able to defend both kicking and takedown attempts while he's working his combos. Mind you, that's just the stand-up training.

Sometimes we combine stand-up and clinch (to include takedowns from the clinch). A good example of this is, one man will attempt to do nothing but punch and maintain the stand-up range. His partner cannot punch, but CAN close the distance and try to tie-up/control the position in the clinch. If the guy gets good position, he can attempt a takedown. Of course, the guy who is just doing stand-up, can sprawl, etc., to defend the takedown. This is a great drill to develop the countering skills of BOTH men at the same time, while maintaining completely separate and antagonistic strategies.

Sometimes we will put it all together to include fighting for submission on the ground (to include strikes) after the takedown. This would occur more within our JKD '201' sessions.

The JKD 101 sessions might just teach the technical aspects (how to punch, how to kick, how to do a body lock or inside tie-up, etc) and would include some low-level drilling against resistance (going light). This session serves to groove mechanics. The 201 sessions offer more resistance and high-level drilling.

Where does it end? lol. The sky's the limit for us. Also it really should be said that, we aren't limited to what 'techniques' will use during our training sessions. In other words, we don't care about "where" they come from (as far as art is concerned), we only care about whether they are practicable and are high percentage. We don't care about theoretical techniques which can't be fully practiced with a resisting partner.


-John

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#135034 - 08/14/04 05:24 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


John,

Do you rely on any "traditional" methods of teaching/training? And/or does your training aspire to the "do" aspects/virtues of traditional Asian training?

It is Jeet Kune "DO", this has always implied a "Way" of spiritual development on some level for the practitioner.

- KiDoHae [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif[/IMG]

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#135035 - 08/14/04 06:02 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Ultimately it's all about the underlying spiritual aspects. JKD is a vehicle for the destruction of the ego. When the ego has been destroyed, greater evolution of the character can be obtained, but not until such ego things have been worked through.

Hard training has a way of allowing a person to work through various fears and hang-ups regarding violence, etc. After a person has faced such things over time, they become less and less. As a person becomes less fearful, he/she becomes more at peace and as a result, less of a burden on society as a whole. Thus, not only is good hard training better for the ego (creating a healthier person), it's pro-social as well.

However.....some methods of training can actually reinforce a fragile ego and can make an insecure person even more paranoid and insecure, or at least, not benefit such a person in any meaningful way. I've seen this personally. I also see it played out all over the internet on a near daily basis.


-John

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#135036 - 08/14/04 06:07 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by KiDoHae:

Do you rely on any "traditional" methods of teaching/training?
[/QUOTE]


Don't know if I answered this particular question for you or not. Could you define what you mean by "traditional"?


-John

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#135037 - 08/14/04 09:22 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


John

It is really cool that you train JKD. It is quite sad that it is not taught here in New Zealand. I mean I try to follow the instructions from the books I have, but it is always good to have someone helping you fine tune your technique which makes quite a big difference in setting a strong foundation to work from. My knowledge of JKD philosophy is through self study and I, eventhough have been doing martial arts, on and off, since I was 9, am still such a novice.
All the best


Axé

Buda

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#135038 - 08/15/04 07:39 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Your training sounds very intense, and useful. It sounds to me that JKD is, in it's own right, just a title given to the idea of MMA. Maybe that is a good answer to the topic discussion. JKD, philosophy or style. I think both would suffice as an adequate answer. It's both the philosophy of not anticipating or depending on one move, but it's also a style of MMA.

How do you acquire techniques that you teach? I'm not trying to be offensive in saying this, but, it sounds like collecting moves. How do you keep your training from falling into this category of simply collecting moves?

In any case, your class sounds excellent. Next time I'm in NC, I will be stopping by. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Respectfully,

Greg

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#135039 - 08/15/04 07:59 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Often it is little more than technique collecting. However, the techniques must meet certain requirements. It must be flexible, unpredictable, economical, fluid, and most importantly, it must be tested against resisting opponents to prove its effeectiveness.

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#135040 - 08/15/04 08:09 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Technique collection is an interesting thing. I see a distinction between technique collection and functional technical ability. What's the difference you may ask? The concept of daily decrease has everything to do with it.

I'll give you some examples.

Guy number one:
*Learns 20 escapes from the mount. He's (too) busy learning as many escapes as possible. Knowing MORE is all that is important to him. As a result, he doesn't have any time to actually TRAIN them in an alive manner. He's too busy assembling his "collection" of mount escapes to develop skill at them (training against resistance during drilling and sparring).

Guy number two:
*Learns only 3 escapes from the mount, but can chain them together into combinations based upon his opponent's resistance.

Because he's only learned 3 escapes, he's got plenty of time to drill them until they become second nature. He becomes HIGHLY skilled as a result and consequently, not many people can hold him down in the mount position for very long, if at all.

Look at some differences between the two.

*Guy number one can "show" you his twenty (and counting) escapes from the mount. When the time comes to perform though, he has a hard time and his technique falls apart because of the limited amount of time devoted to actually TRAINING each one (there are after all, only so many hours in a day).

*Guy number 2 can't show you a whole lot of mount escape "techniques", but he can damned sure get OUT of the mount when an opponent gets it on him.

And that's the difference between mere "collection" and training. There's a difference between "knowledge" and "knowing".

This is a great example of what daily decrease is all about. I "am" guy number two. I know three basic escapes and a few variations of them. But, I can get out of the position by chaining each of the three together based upon what my opponent does.

Do I want to know "more" techniques? Perhaps in time, after I've mastered the basics to a high degree, I'll add a few more basics in. Mastery is nothing but the skilled execution of the basics after all.

That approach is ANTI technique collection. Simplicity of training and daily decrease facilitate skill development in the modern fighter. There's just no NEED to know a lot of techniques. There's only a need to know a few and to MASTER them.

Then you're not the jack of all trades, master of none.


Good post by the way.


-John

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#135041 - 08/15/04 10:24 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


JKogas:

Excellent answer! By giving examples you've answered my question without actually needing to say that your guy #2. From what I've seen on your site, and heard you say, it sounds like you have a top notch school.

Bravo.


Chen Zen:

Congrats on the new forum and moderator position. I was lost for a little while, because I couldn't find this discussion thread in the MA talk. Nice suggestion to open a new forum and again congrats on your new position as moderator.


About my answer to the discussion. What do you guys think about that definition? Is it hitting the nail on the head, or am I missing something. I only have a limited knowlege of JKD, thats why I want to know if my grasp of JKD is correct or not.

[This message has been edited by OklahomasGreg (edited 08-15-2004).]

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#135042 - 08/15/04 11:10 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Greg, thanks. I would say that you were right in saying its a little of both, philosophy and style. But the style is ever changing so its not a set system. Virtually every practitioners JKD is different.

John, excellent work. I see other guys doing kata with 30 to 50 techniques and thinking to myself, "how could you sit and learn all those movements in all those kata" ? I use about 10 different hand strikes, about four kicks, and now Im covering the grappling. This even is excessive to other JKD practitioners Ive met. I have a deep seeded desire for variety but as soon as Ive learned them Ive moved on to something else. Im now at the same set Ive been at for about four years.

You also made a good point about basics. Often times the outcome of training, the "BB", becomes the focus instead of the training itself. Technique wise you could learn everything you need to know about fighting ina tradtional atmosphere. Its simply refining the basics, making them your own, thats how you become a master.

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#135043 - 08/16/04 01:23 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


So, then I guess that my training in stances is almost pointless then. I'm constantly practicing my stances and forms, but I would never use the blocks or stances that I practice in a fight, uless it was just an idiot that I was fighting. I see that building leg strength in stances is a plus, but other than that, it seems pointless to practice a deep front stance and a low block.

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#135044 - 08/16/04 07:31 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:

Don't know if I answered this particular question for you or not. Could you define what you mean by "traditional"?


-John
[/QUOTE]

John,

Thanks for asking that. Like everyhting else, I guess, what I percieve as "traditional" is really only what I percieve, this may or may not even be true for most people. Those of us who have been praticing MAs for some time understand that as you progress you conquer your demons one-by-one. And deal with things that utliamtely hinder you not just as a "fighter" but as a person. They are, after all, one and the same.

You basically answered the question. As you did not mention it, am I correct in assuming that meditative practice and breathing are not a part of improving performance on any level? Not everyone places stock in these methods. I am making no judgement one way or the other.

- KiDoHae [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif[/IMG]



[This message has been edited by KiDoHae (edited 08-16-2004).]

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#135045 - 08/16/04 06:08 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by KiDoHae:

John,

Thanks for asking that. Like everyhting else, I guess, what I percieve as "traditional" is really only what I percieve, this may or may not even be true for most people. Those of us who have been praticing MAs for some time understand that as you progress you conquer your demons one-by-one. And deal with things that utliamtely hinder you not just as a "fighter" but as a person. They are, after all, one and the same.
[/QUOTE]

Traditional is pretty much anything rigid and fixed. Wouldn’t you say? The dictionary defines traditional as: A mode of thought or behavior followed by a people continuously from generation to generation; a custom or usage.

Thus, nearly everything can be “traditional”. Tradition however, is often followed blindly and without critical thought. I’m naturally contemptuous of such a thing.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by KiDoHae:

You basically answered the question. As you did not mention it, am I correct in assuming that meditative practice and breathing are not a part of improving performance on any level? Not everyone places stock in these methods. I am making no judgement one way or the other.

- KiDoHae [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif[/IMG]


[/QUOTE]

Meditation and breathing can be good things I believe, depending. I like to practice breathing, but in a challenging way. I like to hinder my breathing so that I learn to breath under duress and maintain composure. One method of doing this is to lie on one’s back and stretch your legs back over your head until your toes touch or nearly touch the floor atop your head. Stay in such a position for as long as possible. That’s an excellent breathing exercise and one that I employ as part of my warm up.


-John

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#135046 - 08/16/04 07:28 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow such interesting replies to my topic!
I guess my entire point was that those who train and study JKD as a system are missing the basic fundamental nature of JKD. That people who teach JKD as a system are misleading. No offense to those who teach it as a philosophy and not a style. Taking a move or combination and saying this is JKD is just not what it's all about. The abandonment of style, the integration of everything one "knows" into a body of knowledge and experience that transends the traditional beliefs and structures, creating something that is nothing, out of everything. Thank you for your replies it calms some of my worries about those who come into my school and say I trained with a JKD master and then watch them get all mixed up because they are still stuck in form and tradition. I study traditional Shaolin Chuan Fa Kung Fu but one of the things we drill into our students is that it doesn't matter which strike you throw when confronted as long as something effective comes out. It's not about style, but about thought, or better yet, the abandonment of thought and the acceptance of instinct, more so, taking the techniques you've been taught and ingraingin them into your being through training so that when the time comes, you are more than ready and don't need to think about your reaction.

On another note, Stance work is effective and useful, not only building leg strength but balance and such. I live in Chicago, it gets real snowy and I cannot tell you how many times i have slipped on the ice and landed in a stance, completely by instinct. Or jumped and misread the distance and caught myself in a stance. Once stances are ingrained, you notice you take them often, how many times have you had to move something heavy and it slipped, you caught it because your body dropped into a low stance. I seem to do this often, but maybe it's just me. Even menial things like not falling on your *** when your chair rolls out from under you and landing in a horse instead. Maybe i'm just clumsy sometimes and my stance3s help me. I don't know.

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#135047 - 09/07/04 11:15 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


The term "Jeet kune do" itself implies a system[AKA Wayv of the Intercepting Fist].Bruce lee had a system as much as he didn't like to admit it. He taught specific techniques and methods based on many systems, primairly Wing chun, Boxing, fencing[whithout the weapons of course]and taekwondo.
Even though he taught people to find what works for them he still taught people specific mrthods so JKD really is a philosophy and system at the same time like most other martial arts.

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#135048 - 09/07/04 09:16 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
JKD is the system of no system.

To understand this, realize that the notion of 'styles' is bullshit. A style is but a slice of reality.

A style implies a beginning and an end. A style is defined as much by what it isn't as what it is. A style has a beginning and an end. Otherwise it wouldn't BE a style as it would have no way of comparing itself against other styles. In other words, there would have to be differences between a style and another style. If there are no differences, then there are no styles. In reality, there ARE no differences because, we only have two arms and two legs. There are only so many ways of hitting, joint locking and just little infinitesimal variations between them.

JKD is different for everyone. This main idea is, JKD cannot be taught, only discovered. It's a process and not a product. A teacher simply cannot teach you how to be you -- only you can do that. He can show you HOW to discover this and ultimately thats what a good coach will do.

I can show you technique. I can coach that technique and provide the environment for you to train it, but ultimately whether it becomes something you absorb or reject is up to you. However, JKD is NOT ABOUT specific techniques, because, anything that WORKS FOR YOU is a JKD technique. The key being, that YOU can make it work. Lee said after all that, "efficiency is anything that scores".

Lee realized that most fighting arts try to paint a picture of fighting as some sort of rocket science. He understood that fighting is just a natural act that becomes contrived and made rigid, pouring this natural state into a mold of what we think and believe fighting "should be like". When this happens it becomes contrived instead of natural. This is what most formal styles of martial arts become -- contrived and unnatural.

Lee sought to do the opposite and free his followers from forms, dead patterns and other contrived molds. He wanted them to just experience the "what is" of fighting and to develop themselves as fighters accordingly.

Sure we know that there are right ways of doing things and wrong ways of doing things. We know this because we have engaged in the "what is" of fighting with resisting, alive, opponents. We have seen and experienced firsthand the truth in combat. And this is what JKD is all about. And it's also why it is different for each individual, because truthfully no two people are never going to fight the same way. So is there really a system, or is there not?

...but what do I know....we're all just children along the path .


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 09-07-2004).]

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#135049 - 09/08/04 08:55 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow, what an interesting thread!

Chen you posted earlier in this thread and wrote that you only use about 10 hand strikes and about 4 different kicks. What would these be? As a beginner should I learn as much as possible and once I have a good base narrow it down to say 4 kicks. Or should I pick 4 kicks and focus on them solely?
If everyone, not only Chen, offer there input I would greatly appreciate it!!

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#135050 - 09/08/04 03:17 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
JKD is the system of no system.

To understand this, realize that the notion of 'styles' is bullshit. A style is but a slice of reality.

A style implies a beginning and an end. A style is defined as much by what it isn't as what it is. A style has a beginning and an end. Otherwise it wouldn't BE a style as it would have no way of comparing itself against other styles. In other words, there would have to be differences between a style and another style. If there are no differences, then there are no styles. In reality, there ARE no differences because, we only have two arms and two legs. There are only so many ways of hitting, joint locking and just little infinitesimal variations between them.

JKD is different for everyone. This main idea is, JKD cannot be taught, only discovered. It's a process and not a product. A teacher simply cannot teach you how to be you -- only you can do that. He can show you HOW to discover this and ultimately thats what a good coach will do.

I can show you technique. I can coach that technique and provide the environment for you to train it, but ultimately whether it becomes something you absorb or reject is up to you. However, JKD is NOT ABOUT specific techniques, because, anything that WORKS FOR YOU is a JKD technique. The key being, that YOU can make it work. Lee said after all that, "efficiency is anything that scores".

Lee realized that most fighting arts try to paint a picture of fighting as some sort of rocket science. He understood that fighting is just a natural act that becomes contrived and made rigid, pouring this natural state into a mold of what we think and believe fighting "should be like". When this happens it becomes contrived instead of natural. This is what most formal styles of martial arts become -- contrived and unnatural.

Lee sought to do the opposite and free his followers from forms, dead patterns and other contrived molds. He wanted them to just experience the "what is" of fighting and to develop themselves as fighters accordingly.

Sure we know that there are right ways of doing things and wrong ways of doing things. We know this because we have engaged in the "what is" of fighting with resisting, alive, opponents. We have seen and experienced firsthand the truth in combat. And this is what JKD is all about. And it's also why it is different for each individual, because truthfully no two people are never going to fight the same way. So is there really a system, or is there not?

...but what do I know....we're all just children along the path .


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 09-07-2004).]
[/QUOTE]

So if Bruce Lee believed that whatever works for a person is a jkd technique then why did he contridict himself by teaching againsed using many techniques and training methods of other styles such as kata and the stances of traditional arts like karate, when thos methods undoutedly work for some peoplr?

Also,I think Bruce Lee underestimated the importance of such things as kata which can be almost essential training tools when the meaning of the kata are understood. Traditional techniques are very effective and useful when used in the right context.
Bruce lee was only exposed to the sporterized forms of karate and so didn't understand the real purpose and meaning of kata and other traditional methods.
Although I do admit he was very succesful in training people and his philosphy of using only what is useful and discarding the rest is much better than being confind to a set of techniques.
(sorry for the long read)

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#135051 - 09/08/04 03:46 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


No offense to jkd practitioners(if there is such a thing)but the philosophy of jkd is the MA version of hedinism. Hedinism-if it feels good do it
jkd-do what you want if you like it and it works for you.
Again no offense to jkd practitioners

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#135052 - 09/08/04 05:05 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stormdragon:

So if Bruce Lee believed that whatever works for a person is a jkd technique then why did he contridict himself by teaching againsed using many techniques and training methods of other styles such as kata and the stances of traditional arts like karate, when thos methods undoutedly work for some peoplr?
[/QUOTE]

I said that JKD wasn’t about specific techniques, meaning that JKD isn’t limited to certain things. Lee preached that some things work better than others, but if I person could do something, it’s senseless to change him IF (and that’s a big if) it was a benefit and not a detriment.

The method is more important. Lee himself said that JKD wasn’t “about petty technique”. It’s HOW you train more so than WHAT you train. In this manner, it’s easy to see that some techniques aren’t going to make the cut. This is because aliveness (which Lee believed in) shows what is possible for a person to execute and what isn’t.

Lee didn’t believe in dead patterns and forms, especially during the latter years. That’s why those things weren’t practiced. Those aren’t techniques so much as they are dance moves.

The stances and forms of karate, kung fu, etc., etc., are ultimately shown to be ineffectual within the crucible of alive training. For this reason they aren’t practiced. It’s a matter of SHOWING what isn’t workable and not just relying on theory. Much technique falls by the wayside when held up to the light in this manner. Much was dropped by former classically trained practitioners. Those techniques mentioned would not have made the cut. Again, if it had worked, it would not have been discarded. But as I said, this has to be shown instead of just being theorized over.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stormdragon:

Also,I think Bruce Lee underestimated the importance of such things as kata which can be almost essential training tools when the meaning of the kata are understood. Traditional techniques are very effective and useful when used in the right context.
[/QUOTE]

Kata = dead patterns. There is NO person now, living or dead, who needs to do kata or ANY other form to become an effective fighter. In fact, kata can get in the way of becoming an effective fighter due to wasted time. This can be logically seen in the fact that no boxers, wrestlers, BJJ fighters or MMA guys ever do kata and yet have succeedly wildly in routinely defeating classical martial artists in MMA events.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stormdragon:

Bruce lee was only exposed to the sporterized forms of karate and so didn't understand the real purpose and meaning of kata and other traditional methods.
[/QUOTE]

Again, kata serves no purpose in the development of fighting ability and can actually detract from it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stormdragon:

Although I do admit he was very succesful in training people and his philosphy of using only what is useful and discarding the rest is much better than being confind to a set of techniques.
(sorry for the long read)
[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Discarding what doesn’t work and keeping only what does is important, but it’s ultimately an individual’s place to determine this.


-John

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#135053 - 09/08/04 07:06 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lethal Striker:
Wow, what an interesting thread!

Chen you posted earlier in this thread and wrote that you only use about 10 hand strikes and about 4 different kicks. What would these be? As a beginner should I learn as much as possible and once I have a good base narrow it down to say 4 kicks. Or should I pick 4 kicks and focus on them solely?
If everyone, not only Chen, offer there input I would greatly appreciate it!!
[/QUOTE]

You're going to get as many different opinions as the people that you ask. If you want my opinions regardining kicking -- DON'T kick! See what I mean? As far as hand techniques, choose those they you can reasonably spar with. If there are some that you can't spar with, limit your time with them -- you don't want huge time investments in "theory-based" technique or "vital point" strikes.


-John

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#135054 - 09/08/04 09:02 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


I would have to disagree with the don't kick comment. There is nothing better than punching high and bringing your opponents guard up, and then immediately slamming a stomp kick to their knees. The opponent is normally so focused on what's coming at his upper body they aren't ready for their knee to get smashed. Try a cutting round house to the knee or any stomp kick to the ankle. Even more effective on the street is a nice sharp toe kick to the shin (providing you have strong shoes on), Think of how much it hurts to bump your shin into the corner of a low table in the middle of the night, Now imagine that table coming at you at a devastating speed with intent behind it, or grinding your foot straight down the shin and ripping up the skin. Kicks are very effective when low and often come as a complete surprise. I don't know anyone who can fight with broken knees, shredded shins, and twisted (or smashed) ankles.

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#135055 - 09/09/04 05:57 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

I would have to disagree with the don't kick comment. There is nothing better than punching high and bringing your opponents guard up, and then immediately slamming a stomp kick to their knees.
[/QUOTE]

I have a few questions for you:

1. How do you PRACTICE this move?
2. Wouldn’t you prefer hands over feet? Doesn’t it seem like a good idea to use our feet for what they’re for (moving around) instead of lifting one leg off the ground where your base becomes unstable?
3. Have you never tried to kick someone in the knee and it FAILED?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

The opponent is normally so focused on what's coming at his upper body they aren't ready for their knee to get smashed.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, if they’re knees are flexed, they won’t GET smashed. They only way one can really “smash” someone’s knees is if they are standing straight as a bone and have locked their legs out. No one I have ever SEEN fights that way though. A FLEXED knee is a HARD knee to smash.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

Try a cutting round house to the knee or any stomp kick to the ankle. Even more effective on the street is a nice sharp toe kick to the shin (providing you have strong shoes on),
[/QUOTE]

I would disagree. Have you ever heard of the “adrenaline rush”? It makes a person’s pain tolerance go through the roof. I would suggest trying to knock a guy out instead of just trying to “hurt” him a little.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

Think of how much it hurts to bump your shin into the corner of a low table in the middle of the night, Now imagine that table coming at you at a devastating speed with intent behind it, or grinding your foot straight down the shin and ripping up the skin.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, and I have zero adrenaline pumping in the middle of the night either. It makes a HUGE difference. If someone kicks me in the shin, I’d probably feel it AFTER the fight, or tomorrow or something, but not during. You’re going to have to knock me out to get me to quit fighting. There are no such knock-out points on the shins. Wouldn’t you rather have them quit fighting altogether instead of NOW being only more enraged and wanting to tear your head off? I know I would.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

Kicks are very effective when low and often come as a complete surprise. I don't know anyone who can fight with broken knees, shredded shins, and twisted (or smashed) ankles.
[/QUOTE]

See, there you go again with theory. Sure, those shots look good on paper, but you’re taking the HUMAN FACTOR out of the equation by stating such things as; “I don’t know ANYONE who can fight…”, etc. Let me tell you something – I DO! I know a guy who got his forearm broke blocking a punch. Do you know what he did? He ended up knocking the other guy out! I could tell you a LOT of stories about REAL tough people doing some amazing things; while having been stabbed and shot!!! If THAT doesn’t make a person quit fighting, little pissy kicks to the shins aren’t going to.

It would probably be a good idea to actually KNOW of what you speak before going out into internet land and talking about things that you’re not really sure of, and trying to advise others of things you’ve either never tried, or haven’t tried on enough people. Just some friendly advice. That's why I say, TEST EVERYTHING. But you can't just test it once and it expect such stuff to work on everyone you meet. That's more than dangerous.


-John



[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 09-09-2004).]

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#135056 - 09/09/04 09:23 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks for the advice John!!!

Would it be useful for me to use a kick sort of like a jab? Not a knockout but a mans to an end.

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#135057 - 09/09/04 03:59 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow, you were pretty adamant about that John.

You missed my point though. Kicking low when someone is blocking high. How do you cut down a tree, not at the top, but from the bottom. How do you bring down a tall building, best bet is to blow out it's supports, near it's base. How do you topple over a table, take out one of it's legs. Go for the roots, that was my point, it doesn't matter what you do to them, as long as they are gone. Why would I waste my time trading punches with someone who is guarding their head and upper body, why do I need to try and get through their guard when they have a perfectly open pair of legs. Joints are easily broken, no matter how much you think you can avoid it. Let someone hit you in the knee with a baseball bat and see if you can still get up and chase them. I don't care how much adrenaline you have, if you can't stand up.

Where do you get off insulting me?

I'm not spouting theory, I'm talking about what hurts. 7 out of 10 times in a fight, not a tournament, you end up against some idiot who watches boxing and Kung fu movies and such and that's all they know, why do you need to knock them out when you can just disable them. I'll tell you, when you're in a crowded bar or something along that line, and there are a bunch of witnesses the last thing you want is for everyone to be telling the cops you just off and whaled on some guy, knocking his teeth out and splattering blood everywhere. No I would and have always prefered to be a bit more discreet. These at home martial artists and fighters just wont know what hit them. It's the element of surprise. Sure they can block out the pain when they are expecting it, but if they swing at your head and end up on the ground grabbing their knee, ankle, whatever, they wont get back up, unless they are crazy or wasted, and at that point, what the hell are you still doing standing there?

Maybe smash was the wrong word, dislocate might be better. I'm not talking about destroying the knee, just disabling it, same concept as dislocating the shoulder or elbow, if it cannot be moved, it cannot hurt you.

Oh and you practice this move or any move like this on someone holding a 100 lb heavy bag on the ground, against the leg, if you can bend the heavy bag and make your partners knee turn in, you can probably go through the average persons leg. With a stomp kick, didn't you ever lean a 2x4 against a wal and try to break it in half by stomping on it when you were a kid. And why would your base become unstable if you have decent balance and know how to kick properly, plus i'm not talking about standing there and sticking one leg behind your head, I mean, lifting your knee to your waste and just driving your body weight through the leg with your heal, nice, fast, and efficient. Done right, it's just like taking a step, only their leg ends up under foot. Go at an angle, and your set. Come on use some common sense. For a JKD practitioner you sure seem to be stuck in a mold. No offense. Thanks for your input though.

[This message has been edited by tsai's kung fu (edited 09-09-2004).]

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#135058 - 09/09/04 07:05 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

Wow, you were pretty adamant about that John.
[/QUOTE]

I was hoping I’d not sounded harsh – the internet has a way of overly dramatizing what we type.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

You missed my point though. Kicking low when someone is blocking high. How do you cut down a tree, not at the top, but from the bottom. How do you bring down a tall building, best bet is to blow out it's supports, near it's base. How do you topple over a table, take out one of it's legs. Go for the roots, that was my point, it doesn't matter what you do to them, as long as they are gone. Why would I waste my time trading punches with someone who is guarding their head and upper body, why do I need to try and get through their guard when they have a perfectly open pair of legs. Joints are easily broken, no matter how much you think you can avoid it. Let someone hit you in the knee with a baseball bat and see if you can still get up and chase them. I don't care how much adrenaline you have, if you can't stand up.
[/QUOTE]

A baseball bat and a kick are two different things. Besides, you have to HIT me with either first before I’ll go down. Sounds like an oversimplification but it’s not.

I understand your points but I just feel that there are a lot of better ways to go about dealing with an opponent than by picking up the feet. Not a whole lot is going to change my opinion on that.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

Where do you get off insulting me?
[/QUOTE]

Where did I insult you? About spouting theory? If the shoe fits wear it. It sounded to me as if you were spouting theory and I called you on it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

I'm not spouting theory, I'm talking about what hurts. 7 out of 10 times in a fight, not a tournament, you end up against some idiot who watches boxing and Kung fu movies and such and that's all they know, why do you need to knock them out when you can just disable them.
[/QUOTE]

But again, how do you PRACTICE these tactics? You’ve not bothered to answer this question yet.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

I'll tell you, when you're in a crowded bar or something along that line, and there are a bunch of witnesses the last thing you want is for everyone to be telling the cops you just off and whaled on some guy, knocking his teeth out and splattering blood everywhere. No I would and have always prefered to be a bit more discreet.
[/QUOTE]

Personally, I’m not going to be “picky” about how I go about dismantling someone, if the situation came down to that. The “real world” (as so many of the so-called ‘street’ guys like to put it) doesn’t offer such pleasant choices.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

These at home martial artists and fighters just wont know what hit them. It's the element of surprise. Sure they can block out the pain when they are expecting it, but if they swing at your head and end up on the ground grabbing their knee, ankle, whatever, they wont get back up, unless they are crazy or wasted, and at that point, what the hell are you still doing standing there?
[/QUOTE]

Sounds great on paper and, quite easy to do from behind a keyboard. Of course, arm-chair martial artists ALWAYS talk about “what they would do to this guy, or to that guy”. It’s just all so easy. Just cut and paste fighting.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

Maybe smash was the wrong word, dislocate might be better. I'm not talking about destroying the knee, just disabling it, same concept as dislocating the shoulder or elbow, if it cannot be moved, it cannot hurt you.
[/QUOTE]

How do you practice it? How do you know, to what degree, it will be effective?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

Oh and you practice this move or any move like this on someone holding a 100 lb heavy bag on the ground, against the leg, if you can bend the heavy bag and make your partners knee turn in, you can probably go through the average persons leg.
[/QUOTE]

Finally an answer, and it’s what I figured you’d say. Ever heard the expression, “Boards don’t hit back”? Well there you have it guy. Standing there and kicking a stationary target and thinking that it’s how you’re going to pull it off in a fight.

Nice try. Can I have your stereo?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

With a stomp kick, didn't you ever lean a 2x4 against a wal and try to break it in half by stomping on it when you were a kid.
[/QUOTE]

No. I never planned on fighting sticks and boards.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

And why would your base become unstable if you have decent balance and know how to kick properly…
[/QUOTE]

Because the other person will be fighting you back and not just standing there. I’m telling you personally, that if a guy tried to kick me, that would be the last thing he did before his ass met the ground. That’s a promise. Once there, he wouldn’t be getting back up with the same amount of teeth he went down with.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:


…plus i'm not talking about standing there and sticking one leg behind your head, I mean, lifting your knee to your waste and just driving your body weight through the leg with your heal, nice, fast, and efficient. Done right, it's just like taking a step, only their leg ends up under foot. Go at an angle, and your set. Come on use some common sense.
[/QUOTE]

I’m not knocking kicking overall. I AM saying however, that it’s the weakest choice of fighting tools that are available. Sure, you may have some power in the legs, but the costs overrun the benefits. They are slower to move, slower to use in combinations (especially compared to hands), the upset your base, they limit your counters…..what more do I need to say?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

For a JKD practitioner you sure seem to be stuck in a mold. No offense. Thanks for your input though.

[/QUOTE]

Yep, the mold of time, knowledge and most importantly, experience of the “what is”. No offense taken. Your points just speak of the lack of the aforementioned. No offense.


-John

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#135059 - 09/10/04 10:14 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Because the other person will be fighting you back and not just standing there. I’m telling you personally, that if a guy tried to kick me, that would be the last thing he did before his ass met the ground. That’s a promise. Once there, he wouldn’t be getting back up with the same amount of teeth he went down with.

What if Wanderlai Silva was attempting to kick you? Or someone of his caliber.

[This message has been edited by Lethal Striker (edited 09-10-2004).]

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#135060 - 09/10/04 12:19 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm not arguing with you John, there are of course many other options. I'm not saying stay solely to kicking. Just that kicks should not be completely discounted. I have been in many fights, and i have used kicks and won. I would never throw a kick above the waist. It's only low kicks that really work in a fight, high kicks are slow and throw you off balance, but a kick that never gets higher than the waist, including the chamber comes twice as fast as a kick that comes high. I guess to sum up my entire point, a nice strong low kick to the roots of any person, coming while they are distracted blocking high, will more often than not, end the confrontation. Maybe I just haven't been in enough fights with stone cold psychotic well trained killing machines who can fight like cornered wild animals that can chew their arms and legs off and then tear through their captor. I'm talking about the person most people end up fighting, the drunk idiot on Saturday night who just wont accept an apology and has to look tough in front of his friends and girlfriend.

By the way, I'm not an arm chair martial artist, I'm the Administrative Director of Tsai's Kung Fu International, I work out about 3 hours a day 5-6 days a week. I'm by no means a master, but I can handle my own, and I would never suggest something unless I have tried it and found it to be true. Low kicks have saved my butt quite a few times, maybe it's just because I have long, fast, legs. But then isn't that the point of JKD, Taking what you know, and through experience, utilizing whatever works best for you?

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#135061 - 09/10/04 08:26 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lethal Striker:
"Because the other person will be fighting you back and not just standing there. I’m telling you personally, that if a guy tried to kick me, that would be the last thing he did before his ass met the ground. That’s a promise. Once there, he wouldn’t be getting back up with the same amount of teeth he went down with."

What if Wanderlai Silva was attempting to kick you? Or someone of his caliber.
[/QUOTE]


Well first off, I can’t beat everyone. Silva is a pro fighter with incredible attributes. But, he’s not as much a kicker as many think. He does throw a few, but it’s not his kicking that puts people away. It’s his punching and his knees. I’ll take my chances with a pure kickboxer any day.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

I'm not arguing with you John, there are of course many other options. I'm not saying stay solely to kicking.
[/QUOTE]

Nor am I arguing with you. I’m not saying to never throw a kick. As such I would never completely discount them. My arguments against them have already been made and I stand by them. I won’t go through them again just to try and hammer a point home.

Test everything you do against “quality” opponents in all ranges.


-John

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#135062 - 09/14/04 12:50 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
http://cruciblegym.tripod.com/id48.htm

John, when you train clinch do you allow for neck position like in the picture above or is this just the way you guys do it?

Also, I couldnt help but notice how to footing, forgive me for saying this, is a little short, is this normal procedure in your style of clinch grappling and if so why?

It looks like you guys ar drilling plumm and knee strike.

I might, on Saturday, get a lend of a digital camera and get a few positions for you to try out.... dont worry I am genuinely not trying to pick at you.

I am a little confident that theres a few techniques I could share with ya.

...by the way, you dont look that old [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

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#135063 - 09/14/04 05:36 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
I’m not knocking kicking overall. I AM saying however, that it’s the weakest choice of fighting tools that are available. Sure, you may have some power in the legs, but the costs overrun the benefits. They are slower to move, slower to use in combinations (especially compared to hands), the upset your base, they limit your counters…..what more do I need to say?[/QUOTE]


I think this must be one of the most ignorant (no offence and I'm sure I wont offend you [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]) comments yet.

[QUOTE]it’s the weakest choice of fighting tools that are available[/QUOTE] for you!!! and anyone who cannot kick!

Fact remains, if you know how to kick well, hard and fast it wont be as easy as [QUOTE]if a guy tried to kick me, that would be the last thing he did before his ass met the ground. That’s a promise. Once there, he wouldn’t be getting back up with the same amount of teeth he went down with.[/QUOTE]

how do you know that? we "kickers", especially the Thai kind (well at least those who train authentic Thai fighting) train long and hard at nuetralisations, takedowns from leg catch and counters to leg catch. Have you really ever been with a man who can kick well? I doubt that very much Jay with you previous comments.

I have seen a man being KO'd in a Night Club called Bubbles (many who have been to chaing Mai will know this notorious night club) by a high roundhouse to the face! Thats standing cold, kicking high and fast with power and being intoxicated. I myself have absolute ZERO problems with kicking cold, I can litterally wake up out of bed and kick a bag and make it look good.

The weakest choice of fighting tools available are not roundhouse kicks thats a complete ignorant comment John. Honestly mate, I think you gotta train with someone who can kick, I think you gotta spar with someone who can actually kick well and you'll probably be saying "hmm... well you know what maybe I was wrong in assuming that would be the last thing he did before his ass met the ground".

Thats a stupid comment. Sorry man, it is.

There are half arsed kickers and then there are kickers. A good kicker can use his legs like you can your hands.

Its not as easy to catch a leg, mate you can be a professional wrestler for all I care but it is not as easy when I know thats what you will try to do, there are only so many ways to catch a leg and we know them all!

You should know that the more you think about attempting something the more of a chance you wont do it.

rule number one make him think I will then do different!

You can catch the leg of a half arsed kicker and do what you want. I am VERY confident you have not sparred or fought with a good kicker.

You say some really great stuff then you say stuff that really is odd to hear.

[QUOTE]Sure, you may have some power in the legs, but the costs overrun the benefits. They are slower to move, slower to use in combinations (especially compared to hands), the upset your base, they limit your counters…..what more do I need to say?[/QUOTE]

aw man, haha. some power!!! haha, dude if you aint conditioned to take a full powered kick to your leg you are going down!! Many a MMA student with no conditioning of the legs FEELS those low kicks and does not like them one bit. Many a man has been killed outright with leg kicks, kidneys burst, brains rolled, ribs broken, arms broken, legs broken... nah man kicks are very weak indeed! yep kicks are very slow indeed, so slow infact that they simply just do them for sheer fun in a professional Thaiboxing fight, so slow that the fighters just allow each other to get killed and seriously injured by them becaus ethey look good and dont really have much power....

[QUOTE]slower to use in combinations (especially compared to hands), the upset your base, they limit your counters…..what more do I need to say[/QUOTE]

I have here plenty of fights where good punchers have found it very difficult keeping it up with good kickers, I have fights here where GOOD punchers have their weapons taken from them by good kickers a good puncher cannot not harm a good kickers weapons of choice, arms can ponly take so much puncihment before they decide to stop working... you should know that if you have fought NHB and anything which has ALL ranges of fighting.

as for the counters and combos, utter crap man. I cannot believe what I am reading. there are 15-25 hit combos (not that I'd do them but that is an example) where kicking is part or the hits.

ok.... It would have been better if you said "I personally find that due to my lack of ability to kick well kicking for me and my students is OUR weakest area in fighting"

because if kicking was so weak and slow it would not be in Muay Thai fights and remember in a Muay Thai fight leg catch and takedown from catch is a favored technique by majority of Pro Muay fighters.

Kicking is strong, fast and very useful to disable and obliterate your opponent. Punching is useful but by no means does it compare to kicking, together punching and kicking are awsome tools.

I dunno.

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#135064 - 09/14/04 05:49 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
If you want my opinions regardining kicking -- DON'T kick! See what I mean? As far as hand techniques, choose those they you can reasonably spar with. If there are some that you can't spar with, limit your time with them -- you don't want huge time investments in "theory-based" technique or "vital point" strikes.


-John

[/QUOTE]

My advice as an active fighter is, DO KICK but make sure you bring those hands up before landing a nicely targeted low roundhouse to the thigh, aaahh the sweet tears of pain and agony, or if you want bring thos ehands up with a few short punches and then slam a hard earned roundkick to the mid section... hmm... I do believe I will be saying to someone lying on the ground "breath man you'll be ok in a moment"

Learn to kick well, dont just half arse it for the sake of it but learn it well. Its an art form and a devastating art at that. Used as follow up or part of a combonation it can end fights pretty damn quickly. without them you are just removing one powerful weapon, why would anyone want to do that?? I suppose those who simply cannopt get it or dont want to spend the time developing a "good" kick prefer to stick to punching.

1 hour a day kicking, being coached by a quality kicker, working punch kick combos, low kick combos "through target" low round kicks which will litterally take you off the ground if you dont know what it is or when it is coming. Kidney kicks, inside leg kicks followed by punch combos...


....John man how the hell can you say such nonsense??? its beyond me.

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#135065 - 09/14/04 07:24 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
How can I say it muay Thai???

Easily in three words -- highly efficent grapplers.

Besides, in most crowded barrooms and nightclubs here in the US, you simply won't have a great deal of room to move around. They are dark, crowded with people AND furniture, making it difficult to maintain balance TO BEGIN WITH, nevermind when you're attempting a KICK.

Personal preference; leave the feet on the ground.


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 09-14-2004).]

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#135066 - 09/14/04 07:49 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Honestly John, in some clubs, you can't even move to order a drink. You're not that old, are you?

If you have got the room to grapple , you can kick.

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#135067 - 09/14/04 08:40 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

Honestly John, in some clubs, you can't even move to order a drink. You're not that old, are you?
[/QUOTE]

This, I realize. Yes, I'm old as well [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

If you have got the room to grapple , you can kick.
[/QUOTE]

Standing grappling requires little room, nor does boxing. I still prefer in either case to keep the feet on the floor where I can use them for what they were intended.


-John



[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 09-14-2004).]

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#135068 - 09/15/04 04:01 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
if I can touch you I can kick you. If you know how to kick right you can kick a person without a problem, where you target is entirely up to you. When I extend my lead arm and touch whoever there is with it I can kick them.

Its a very easy thing to do and shouldnt be thought of as difficult. Its understandable why people chose not to do it... when a person is proficient at kicking then there are no worries about doing it. Obviously you think when and where you will hit but thats with everything.

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#135069 - 09/15/04 05:33 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

if I can touch you I can kick you. If you know how to kick right you can kick a person without a problem, where you target is entirely up to you. When I extend my lead arm and touch whoever there is with it I can kick them.
[/QUOTE]

Well, I've always said that we have the baddest motherf*ckers walking the earth right here on this little ol' forum!

So this doesn't apply to YOU muay Thai -- just to all the MORTALS walking around.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Its a very easy thing to do and shouldnt be thought of as difficult.
[/QUOTE]

Sure......(there's a foot of space between you and the next person. Add to that, tables, chairs, etc., and it's "easy to do")

Certainly Muay Thai, it's easy for PLASTIC MAN!


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Its understandable why people chose not to do it... when a person is proficient at kicking then there are no worries about doing it. Obviously you think when and where you will hit but thats with everything.
[/QUOTE]

Sorry bro, picking one foot off the ground is just not as safe as leaving them ON the ground. This is not going to change just because someone is skilled in kicking! NO way, shape or form.

I am not arguing against kicking overall, but in the frentic "what is" of assault & battery, I prefer for myself and those I teach to leave their feet on the ground. The last thing you want to do is be looking up at the ceiling. That's generally what happens when people (except for the immortals on THIS forum) start throwing kicks in real fights.

You're not going to change my opinion bro. If you want to debate this, we can until the stars FALL man.


-John

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#135070 - 09/15/04 07:28 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
Well, I've always said that we have the baddest motherf*ckers walking the earth right here on this little ol' forum!

So this doesn't apply to YOU muay Thai -- just to all the MORTALS walking around.
[/QUOTE]

How hard is to undertsand that I am neither trying to make myself out to be the Baddest Mofo around... thats laughable!

I know that a man who knows how to kick well can do it from within arms reach! I think many "kickers" will agree with me.

[QUOTE]Sure......(there's a foot of space between you and the next person. Add to that, tables, chairs, etc., and it's "easy to do")

Certainly Muay Thai, it's easy for PLASTIC MAN![/QUOTE]

erm... ok, did I not say "Obviously you think when and where you will hit but thats with everything." and I think you meant Rubber man.

I aint going to try and kick a man when my leg will obviously bounce of a table or crash into a pole... I think you know as much as I do that kicking has its place in selfdefense and it is far from a weak tool. And just to clarify, you can kick quite easily with little space between you and your opponent. Quite easily. Your ignorance in kicking is shining John just as my ignorance in ground fighting shone brightly some time ago.

[QUOTE]Sorry bro, picking one foot off the ground is just not as safe as leaving them ON the ground. This is not going to change just because someone is skilled in kicking! NO way, shape or form.[/QUOTE]

So you teach your boys not to kick? they have absolutely no conditiong in the legs for kicking? You cant feel kicking unless you kick, your shins will be raw your thighs will feel the pain quite sharply unless you take kicks. I think you are not getting the whole idea, when and how to kick is just as important as kicking.

If I am going to kick someone I will so damn obvioulsy think before I do, when the situation tells me Im better not kicking then I wont but when I feel for one second I can whip out a nice thigh kick or kidney shot then I am doing it and the guy without the knowledge of how painful these kicks can be, he is going to continue trying for a few seconds before he gives up with pain... ...does that make sense, when the "situation" tells me that its ok to kick then I will kick and the guy who doesnt know about my kick coming his way is not going to like it one bit when my kick lands on a part of his body which he needs to keep himself moving - the legs!

...how do I know this? Because I have done it and know that it works. I kick you hard on the thigh, it takes a few moments, brief seconds for the pain to register, you carry on for a few breif moments... your leg begins to feel that pain tremedously and your leg gives up! adrenalin or not it will give up! If it doesnt happen with the first initial strike the second will almost always do it unless you are accustomed to kicking, the funny thing is in a fight ring or not, when a man feels pain all concentration goes to that area, he doesnt want to be kicked there again I can tell you, thoughts race, the pain is something to be felt before you can critique the usefulness of a kick, trust me on that. I could parylise your leg with one kick John and you'd not be walking for a week and I could do that kick from arms lenght away from you. I myself have been there and been hobbling around... ANY man who has taken a thigh kick will agree, until you have felt it and expeienced the sheer amount of damage ONE thigh kick can do then you dont know what its like to be hurt by a kick. I know what its like to be hurt by a kick and a punch, out of the two I'll take the punch thank you.
http://members.aol.com/Thaiboxing2000/ <--- read down how Maurice Smith used kicking in NHB.

Theres a nerve runing through your leg and if you land a nice kick on that (which to be honest is just as risky as punching in regards to accuracy) Your leg is giving up unless you can take that kick and theres only one way to develop the conditioning required to withstand those type of kicks, by kicking and being kicked and knowing what its like to crumble under extreme pain and that is not an exaggeration.

Kideny shot kick, done this and winded. Again it takes a few seconds for the winded reaction to kick in but when it does it usually ends the fight. Boxers for some reason tend to punch, hmm... why is that?

guys trained in fighting usually know to look out for other things flying at them so with these guys it tends to be a little more difficult to land certain shots, any shots be it kick punch or fart. But with the inexpereinced and inept its a funny site to see when they punch and you whip a KICK into their kidney. First reaction is like a deep grunt, then you know its just a matter of moments before the reaction finally kicks in, one bang and maybe follow up with a few punches and he's going down....

....fighting is fighting. If you can do it and the opening is there then take it.

Kicking is a very feasable tool in street defense. Some folks can kick like lightening some cant kick for dogs poo.

One foot on or not it is still a wonderfull weapon and one I will never neglect. I train hard at my kicking ability, A lot of work has gone into developing my kicking power and speed, it odes not come easy and you cannot expect to get good at kicking without putting in the hard work but when you do develop that kick it really is something else.

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#135071 - 09/15/04 07:44 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
http://members.aol.com/ThaiRing/faqs.html

A Mixed Martial Artist comments:

[QUOTE]The first time an opponent lands a hard Thai kick on your legs, you will get a wake up call more painful than shin conditioning. Mentally tell yourself that this is the initiation process. In time your shins will be properly conditioned. There are ointments that may alleviate some of the pain. Use them as needed. But understand that no oitment will make the process painless[/QUOTE]

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#135072 - 09/15/04 06:47 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


If you train to kick, then kick, if you train to punch, then punch, if you train for both, use both. Kicking is only as effective as the kicker, same with punches. The only time a kick should leave the kicker looking up at the ceiling is when they are point fighting, and training to lean their body back in order to avoid taking a point. Some one who kicks in combat, not sport, will kick with their weight, leaning in if anything, a well placed stomp kick is simply an exagerated step. driving all of your force momentum, and weight into and through the target. Back to the JKD topic, read Bruce Lee's Fighting Technique. Every page has something about the effectiveness of hard, fast, low kicks. and 90% of the picutres are of him Kicking people in the knee. Seems like he believed in kicks too, didn't seem to throw him off balance.

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#135073 - 09/15/04 08:52 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi all

I study a system that is very similar to JKD and holds many of the same principals.....if it works for you, use it....
We do not limit ourselves to a style.....we have no style....your body type is not my body type...I need to find what works for me, not what works for you.....I need to find what is true for me

One of the things that I have noticed, is that every one tries to push their truth onto others..
I love muay thai, its a great sport and can be very effective......but ultimately, what we learn today is a sport!!!
The low kick in muay thai is a fundamental technique....and I'll say that it is an effective one....however, the person you are kicking in the ring has "agreed" to fight using muay thai rules...they have agreed to the "space cushion" that we associate with ring sports......they have agreed to use the "stick and move" principal....not everyone in the street will agree to these rules....

Even while in the Thai clinch.....why would I allow myself to "trade" knees and elbows...when I can poke my thumb through my opponents eye (this goes for ground grappling as well)......this is clearly not legal in the ring.....but we are not specifically talking about the ring....The Thai grapple is also the perfect position to have a judo type shoot performed on the grappler.....a sport mentality can be a problem at times....

Kicking is only a physical fragment of martial arts......some arts are more street effective than others.
It depends on what you are after.....sure, you can action a jumping spinning kick in the street if you like....but there is a high degree of risk associated with this technique.....many street effective systems don't bother teaching high risk manoeuvres like this one .....for obvious reasons.....

Also.....in this age of court battles.....how will you as a martial artist, convince a jury that you HAD to kick your non martial artist assailant in the head (causing damage) for self defence.....
Hhhmmmm.....food for thought??!!

Humbly
The Wolf

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#135074 - 09/16/04 06:55 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:
Hi all

I study a system that is very similar to JKD and holds many of the same principals.....if it works for you, use it....
We do not limit ourselves to a style.....we have no style....your body type is not my body type...I need to find what works for me, not what works for you.....I need to find what is true for me[/QUOTE]

hmm... good points but this ideology is the fundamentals of fighting. I am a kicker, clinch/grappler another person from the same gym is more a puncher, that is style.

[QUOTE]One of the things that I have noticed, is that every one tries to push their truth onto others..[/QUOTE]

true but fighgting is fighting no matter what and there are rules to fighting inside or outside the ring.


[QUOTE]I love muay thai, its a great sport and can be very effective......but ultimately, what we learn today is a sport!!![/QUOTE]

Modern Muay Thai that we witness in a ring is not that old, 80 years or so. A good Muay teacher will be able to teach you the Art form Muay, i.e. Muay Thai - Muay Chao Chuerk - Muay Man Mudh - Muen changad cheng chok. Then ontop of that you have what is known as Pahuyuth, used in the same sense as Kung-Fu, Karate, Bando etc. Muay Thai is only a fraction of what Thailand has to offer, it isnot a martial art but comes from a Martial Art, Muay Thai (Boran) was a way to fight safely without too many deaths.


[QUOTE]The low kick in muay thai is a fundamental technique....and I'll say that it is an effective one....however, the person you are kicking in the ring has "agreed" to fight using muay thai rules...they have agreed to the "space cushion" that we associate with ring sports......they have agreed to use the "stick and move" principal....not everyone in the street will agree to these rules....[/QUOTE]

good points, again I recommend that you watch some fights where the two fighters dont agree to use the stick and move principal, the reason people actualy do trade is because:

1 - one fighting knows that he must not charge unless he knows he can.

2 - usually the other knows he is fighting another who also knows not to charge so they chose to tactically fight.

3 - they know its a sport they are competing in with rounds.

[QUOTE]Even while in the Thai clinch.....why would I allow myself to "trade" knees and elbows...when I can poke my thumb through my opponents eye (this goes for ground grappling as well)......this is clearly not legal in the ring.....but we are not specifically talking about the ring....The Thai grapple is also the perfect position to have a judo type shoot performed on the grappler.....a sport mentality can be a problem at times....[/QUOTE]

again true with certain points, Thai clinch comes from the battle fields. Eye gouging, biting and all forms of nasty little things are in Muay. Again, the fighter with more fight experience andbetter training will always have the upper hand in almost all fights.

[QUOTE]Kicking is only a physical fragment of martial arts......some arts are more street effective than others.[/QUOTE]

Muay Thai is not a martial art, wasnt intended to be either, it is a form of fighting inside a regulated ring where two people can test each others fighting skills inside clinch and using strikes. The Martial Art of Thailand is combat effective although there are not many elephants running around our streets there are still many techniques which are very effective outside a regulated arena.

[QUOTE]It depends on what you are after.....sure, you can action a jumping spinning kick in the street if you like....but there is a high degree of risk associated with this technique.....many street effective systems don't bother teaching high risk manoeuvres like this one .....for obvious reasons.....[/QUOTE]

If you want to learn how to fight FAST then in my opinion Thaiboxing, Boxing, MMA, Koyokishun(sp), FCKickboxing... any style of fighting that has you actively sparring and competing regularly will be more effective. For example, when I train Thaiboxing but leave out the important parts like "good" pad feeding, sparring and sparring drills (clinch grapple also) and competing I'll be left with a class where I do warm ups, strecthing and fitness training. I will be wearing Muay Thai shorts etc, making some movements that i see in Muay Thai fights and what not.

ok now on the other hand training consists of all of the above but with the added important parts, i.e. the good padfeeding, the sparring etc etc.

one guy from one gym and one from the other, stick em anywhere in the world except under water and my money goes on the guy coming from the gym where sparring, good pad feeding etc is taught.


I have used Muay Thai outside the ring and walked away quite ok. In fact I didnt even need to use any other technique other than elbow and knee it was that effective.

"it was that effective"


what was that effective?

the conditioning, the training, the fight training, the competition fighting where I gained experience.

You can take any fighting system and add to it the training methods used in Muay Thai gyms and I can guarantee the boys being trained will benifit quite a bit.

I see Silat boys in our gym sometimes on Saturday mornings, a couple of us in one room and they are in the next room. Just the way they train not teh system. They hear us puffing and panting and thumps and bangs of people being thrown to the floor etc, a few crys of aginy when bone connects bone by accident, swear words because things get quite frantic... sweat n blood and hard bloody work!

The silat boys must think we're absolutely nuts. I've peaked through a little hole between the door and wall to see them calmly going through what looks like a Tai Chi dance but sitting on the ground. Theres no sweat, people could be wearing jackets and they'd still be cold. In my opinion the 3 of us could probably take on the whole silat class! (I dont mean to sound arrogant)

I rarely hear em work hard.

Now the same system but make em work hard like we do and the "street effective" Silat that they do will now become really dangerous, as it sits they do not focus on fight training and when it comes to fight time the lack of expeirence in a stressful and pressuring situation will be their downfall, eye gouges or biting, it doesnt matter, they will not be able to cope with the sudden release of adrenalin and the whole change, both mentally and phyisical, the body goes through at time of fight.




[This message has been edited by MuayThai (edited 09-16-2004).]

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#135075 - 09/16/04 07:17 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks for taking the time to respond Muay Thai...

I think you make some good points....even though we have strayed from the original topic a bit

You mentioned that at your club, you have fellow students that have adapted different "styles"....specifically that you yourself prefer to kick and that your fellow student prefers to punch......(or at least, that was my interpretation) this is closer to the philosophy of JKD that the philosophy of Muay Thai.
Especially considering that when the powers that be forced boxing gloves onto the Thai's, they dropped their hand skills in silent protest.....
This is the truth that I was talking about....your truth, is not your fellow students truth....it's good to see that your class has adopted this philosophy......because not many schools do !!

In my humble opinion.....it is very dangerous to believe that kickboxing, muay thai, and even boxing for that matter....are forms of self defence......yes, they may be used to protect yourself....but against who???
I think your perception of the silat class is not correct (in my humble opinion)..

I'll probably regret this...but....sparring is not real !!!! When was the last time you saw a street fight last more than 15 seconds?? The nature of sparring can often be....You have a go....I have a go.....I make contact, my opponent makes contact again...and this goes on til the end of the "round".....This is not True.....I would not like any street fight that I was in to be like this....I would much prefer.......My assailant has a go....and I end it right NOW.

The pad work that is done in Muay Thai classes is much more beneficial than the sparring aspect......why I hear you ask.....glad you asked [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]
When we hit pads....we are doing so in a full contact environment...our distancing changes....we follow through with our strikes....there is no concept of protecting our partner because they are safe....and hard strikes are usually encouraged (relevant to body size of course)....This programs your response and set up muscle memory....full contact muscle memory.

If all you ever practice is touch contact sparring.....you will program your response for the wrong distancing....when we experience an adrenal dump....our body reverts to what it knows best and if that is touch contact sparring, we are in for a painful ride.

I think you are right in saying that Muay Thai is fast to learn....there are only really a handful of techniques and you can become proficient in learning them quickly....I think this is a strong point of muay thai....but also in the equation is the fact that you are learning a modified sport form of muay thai with western boxing principals mixed in....like "stick and move"...I think we should all be conscious that this can actually be a negative in a street fight....people do not spar on the street....(unless both parties agree to do so)...have you ever sparred under handicapped rules...if we asked on person to spar using muay thai rules and asked the other to aim for a takedown ....what do we think would happen....my guess is a take down...we see this all the time in the UFC...thai boxers come up against greco roman wrestlers...it doesn't matter how much the thai boxer wants to remain standing....there is going to be a takedown!!!!!

Thai boxing is fantastic to watch and a beautiful art from....but I'll have to concur that it's not the be all and end all....especially on the street (my humble opinion)
And sparring for that matter is not the only way to learn fighting skill....
Question......how long can you be a proficient muay thai boxer? This form of fighting is really for the fanatically fit and dare I say.....a younger age group!!! Yes there has been reports of thai boxers still fighting into their 50's.....but these are exceptional cases I think...
What about the average 50 year old...maybe carring an injury....maybe not a flexible and he was before....maybe carrying a few extra kilos.....is muay thai or kicking head height their truth..(just to bring it back on track for a sec)...

Another point...
Commando's and SAS train for war....they train hard....the DO NOT spar!!!!!

Humbly
The Wolf

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#135076 - 09/17/04 04:06 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Muai Thai is so individual that there are exactly as many
styles as there are fighters[/QUOTE]


Muay Thai has clinch grappling that is (as I have recently found out) practically the same as Greco Roman wrestling but th eonly difference is that in Muay Thai you are taught to strike in clinch using knees, elbows and in some aspect the head! If you see a Thaiboxer who cannot standup clinch the I am sorry to say he knows only 50% of what Muay Thai is. I have had this arguement loads of times but the only real way to settle it is to have a clinch with me or someone trained fully in Muay Thai. As I have said 50% strikes 50% standing grappling.

[QUOTE]but I'll have to concur that it's not the be all and end all....especially on the street (my humble opinion)[/QUOTE]

Muay Thai boxing and even boxing alone is plenty in order to defend yourself in the street. The training and actual expeirence of fighting is what is important. How have I defended myself on the street using Muay Thai, which may I add, is only a ring sport? It is not the be all and end all, I am not saying that, you are reading very wrong or it is my bad grammar. Thaiboxing is a ring sport which comes from a battlefield fighting system. A good Thaiboxing teacher will be able to teach you both. However you do not need to use more than a punch knee elbow or grappling to win any fight where there are no weapons. Tell me what else you need.

[QUOTE]You mentioned that at your club, you have fellow students that have adapted different "styles"....specifically that you yourself prefer to kick and that your fellow student prefers to punch......(or at least, that was my interpretation) this is closer to the philosophy of JKD that the philosophy of Muay Thai.[/QUOTE]

I wasnt thinking JKD but the way you put it seems as tho JKD came BEFORE Muay Thai, well... if JKD is the child of Bruce Lee then Muay Thai (Muay Burma, Muay Cambodia, Muay Laos, Silat etc) has been around a lot longer than he was so "styles" (or no fixed style)has been around a lot longer than you think because this is the way WE have always trained, my trainers, my trainers trainers etc etc... every fighter has his own unique style of fighting and a good trainer will help develop that that is why in a Muay Thai class everyone does different again that is why the best way for Muay Thai to be taught is one-on-one tuition. Sorry to offend or insult but where I come from and with what I train this JKD philosophy seem nothing new.

[QUOTE]but also in the equation is the fact that you are learning a modified sport form of muay thai with western boxing principals mixed in....like "stick and move"...I think we should all be conscious that this can actually be a negative in a street fight....people do not spar on the street....(unless both parties agree to do so)...have you ever sparred under handicapped rules...[/QUOTE]

Ok firstly we, nor boxers or any full contact fighters for that matter, do not spar in a fight. Sparring is HIGHLY important to develop reflex action and timing, without sparring then its a long journey.


[QUOTE]I think you are right in saying that Muay Thai is fast to learn....there are only really a handful of techniques and you can become proficient in learning them quickly....I think this is a strong point of muay thai....[/QUOTE]
http://www.muaythai.com

Yep theres a only a handful of techniques in Muay Thai. The reason why Muay Thai is easy to learn is not beacuse there's "apparently" only a hadnful of techniques, its because each technique is stripped down to become as simple as it can become, it is trained in a manner so that when you come to actual fighting you will have a little experience behind you to be able to deliver that technique. Simplicity is the key to Muay Thai. Dude what is your expeirence in Muay Thai? thanks for answering.

by the way, the techniques only represent what striking techniques can be found in Muay Thai - only 50% of what Muay Thai is.

[QUOTE]if we asked on person to spar using muay thai rules and asked the other to aim for a takedown ....[/QUOTE]

Ok... are we talking authentic Muay Thai or the 50% kind that most gyms seem to be producing. with me adding takedowns is ok, no problem, I havnt cross trained but there are as I have said quite a lot of takedowns and standing grappling in Muay Thai - I am afraid your ignorance in Muay Thai is showing. You probably know only 50% of what I do so you should really have no opinion on the matter until you experience full OUR standing grappling first hand.


[QUOTE]what do we think would happen....my guess is a take down...we see this all the time in the UFC...thai boxers come up against greco roman wrestlers...it doesn't matter how much the thai boxer wants to remain standing....there is going to be a takedown!!!!![/QUOTE]

Most western Thaiboxing gyms, not all but its quite a high number, Panya Kraitus once mentioned about the standard of Muay Thai being taught in many countries was very low. It comes as no suprise when I see, and I have done this to many Muay Thai students my self and quite easily, guys training in Muay Thai being thrown around and controlled. Randy Couture uses Thai clinch and Burmese also Greco. Thai Burmese and Greco are very similar. do some research. In fact Now many MMA schools are taking Thai and Greco clinch, the schools who are lucky enough to have had good tuition in Thai standup clinch (which is an art initself) will benifit.

I think you must understand, if I take a mixed martial artist and this MMA has neglected a part of training, i.e. graound grappling and I put him against some with ground grappling... who would win? Think of a Thaiboxer who cant clinch grapple as a Thaiboxer who trains in 50% of what Thaiboxing is.

Understand?

UFC fighters, or the ones who enter the ring using Thaiboxing always seem to surprise me, why is that? well because I see a guy using certain techniques from Thaiboxing but I dont see, majority of times, a Thaiboxer. Most people assume Thaiboxing to be strike strike strike... it is not and I am quite confident in saying this, it is 50% strike and 50% standing grapple.

Again I am setting your facts straight. I know that Muay Thai is not the be all and end all but I do know that it works on the street, whether you chose to agree or not [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] it doesnt take away the fact that a proficient Thaiboxer or boxer will do quite ok on the dreaded street.

as for the silat guys, yes I am quite sure they are neglecting an area of training which qill help them progress at fighting.

YOU NEED SPARRING!!!


[QUOTE]Question......how long can you be a proficient muay thai boxer? This form of fighting is really for the fanatically fit and dare I say.....a younger age group!!! Yes there has been reports of thai boxers still fighting into their 50's.....but these are exceptional cases I think...
What about the average 50 year old...maybe carring an injury....maybe not a flexible and he was before....maybe carrying a few extra kilos.....is muay thai or kicking head height their truth..(just to bring it back on track for a sec)...[/QUOTE]

How old are you?

How long is a piece of string? Sandy Holt is 41 and still proficient in Thaiboxing, master Sken is 50 and still VERY proficient in Thaiboxing... I am 28 and feel MUCH stronger now than when I was 20.

Dude, the average 50 year old male is not out on the town, the average 50 year old is not having to defend himself... in fact, in reality neither is the majority of the worlds population! This argument is a dead one. You clearly have no understanding of Thai fighting arts, I am sorry to say that mate... I also see in your profile that you live in Melbourne, I've been twice to Australia and funnily enough both times there I was in fights. The standard of Muay Thai in Sydney is kind of ok, you know its hard for me to click out of this when I have trained in authentic Muay Thai, you know what I mean? its hard for me to go in reverse when I have experienced what it really is.

I see you also train in MMA... I assume you're a 50% man when it comes to Thaiboxing.

Please check out:
http://www.pahuyuth.de/indexe.htm

and
http://www.thaing.net

Both fighting "systems" are very very much geared towards each individual fighters STYLE of fighting. Pahuyuth is the entire fighting system from Thailand, Bando is teh entire fighting system from Burma, both with ground fighting and weapons. JKD philosophy seems to be fundamental of these systems... but yet these systems have been around a lot longer than JKD!

I will not be surprised if you havent heard of one or both of these systems.




[This message has been edited by MuayThai (edited 09-17-2004).]

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#135077 - 09/17/04 04:25 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:
Another point...
Commando's and SAS train for war....they train hard....the DO NOT spar!!!!!
[/QUOTE]


haha, Commando's and SAS do spar dude. What do you think hand to hand drills are? what do you think they just go all out with each other. Dont be stupid, no one wants to be hurt in training. Theres a time for sparring and a time for pressure testing.

And anyway, what do SAS and Commando's have to with Muay Thai and JKD philosophy? hahaha.

And anyway i forgot what this thread is about so I seemed to have hijacked it....

...sorry folks just ignore my post! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

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#135078 - 09/17/04 12:39 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


You did'nt completely hijack the thread.
You commented on the ability to abandon style and use what works for you being a part of Muay Thai that has been around for a long time. Well, i agree. The idea of abandoning style, using what works and the like have been present in fighting forever. It is my honest opinion that anyone who has ever used a Martial Art for it's original purpose, Martial Combat, had to adopt this philosophy or get killed. In the early centuries, when there were wars going on everywhere, and guns had nothing to do with them, the soldiers would use what worked to get themselves home alive. It goes all the way back to Roman Times. The primary battles that Rome lost were against those who had no style. The Romans were very strict in their formations and movements, against another, less organized group, this intimidation factor was what helped them win, but once there patterns were known, and they failed to adapt, they started to lose. JKD just brought the idea into the limelight. Think about it, traditional forms oriented Kung Fu, being used against any other style is not very effective because the practitioner is stuck in patterns, blocking and punching at a set pace and order, as soon as the enemy notices the pattern, as long as they can adaot, the fight is over with the form fighter dead. Remeber, the Martial Arts were designed to kill, not subdue, not win points. The only way to survive in any situation, not just fighting, is the ability to adapt.

You made a good point with that.

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#135079 - 09/19/04 09:58 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi all

Where has your hostility come from Muay Thai?
I'm 32....but what does age or rank have to do with anything on a discussion forum?
Are you trying to pull rank?
If so, I humbly bow to you.....obviously my post hit a nerve there.....no offence intended....

Now....I do not claim to be an expert on thai boxing....I do not pretend to be one either. I admire your knowledge of the Thai arts....It's inspiring.....that's for sure....I have a passing interest in Muay Thai and practice many techniques from Muay Thai in my current system (no system)...I haven't overly studied the last 2000 years in relation to Muay Thai....but I know what I see today.....and what I see today is a sport.
I have a different perception to you on many things....I respect yours....I humbly ask that you respect mine...

Sparring is only important in the sporting paradigm...it has no use anywhere else....yes it can create vision....but sparring is not the only way. I prefer muscle memory...so that the average citizen can protect them selves under an adrenal dump.....your point about many people never being in a street fight is valid.....but martial artists should be confident that what they use will protect them...as I mentioned....muay thai will protect you against a certain opponent....not all.

Stick and move will not aid any commando or SAS soldier in what there objective is...the main objective is to incapacitate the assailant....not out score the opponent.

Commado's do not spar! Practicing drills is not sparring....I feel that there is a difference...in fact practicing drills can be linked to kata...there are set movements, set patterns, although drill work can also be done in a spontaneous manner.....I still believe that it's not sparring. (my view)

The reason that Elite soldiers do not spar is because sparring teaches bad habits in relation to hand to hand combat....the distancing is wrong....there are moments in sparring where both opponents do not engage .....there is no follow through....there is an obligation to protect your sparring partner......Soldiers need to be programmed in a different way...touch contact sparring is useless....infact, full contact ring fighting is also useless to their objective...one of the things that military hand to hand combat teaches is finger/hand dismemberment..."hands produce weapons"...so incapaciting hands/fingers is a common drill.....how can you spar using these techniques...I believe that this type of drill is not sparring....there is not a leg check to be seen....there is no jab or hook here.....no points....there is no round and there is no rules...

If you consider drill work to be a form of sparring....that is your opinion and you are entitled to it....but I have my own views and I feel that drill work and sparring are two completely different things...

You mentioned that no one want's to get hurt at training....of course this is true...so how can you spar using techniques that a taught to kill??? It would be very dangerous to use killer techniques in an unrehearshed "spar"..

Once again I maintain that it is dangerous, and somewhat naive to think that ring sports are self defence systems.....yes you can use boxing and kick boxing to protect yourself....but not against everyone.....(just to make a point....you can blind anyone by poking them in the eyes.....you won't always drop everyone using a low leg kick)...I like to train for the most difficult situation....in the hope that it never arrises.....What if there is a 200kg (not sure what that is in pounds) monster (maybe a kickboxer) that has an upper body as large as a house.....wanting to beat me up....what if I can't get out of the confrontation....what if my adrenaline dump has me unclear......what will I have to rely on in this case....I don't think it will be my kickboxing skills.....what ever is programmed into my muscle memory will be my response under these conditions.......
If that happens to be touch contact sparring....I'm in trouble.....

Oh....and another point, most if not all ring sports are one on one......what about if there is 2 of these monsters....what then?
No sarcasm intended....just making a point....
It was not my intention to put down muay thai in any way....I love the sport myself....I did however want to make the distinction between, a sport and ....and reality based training...

It's all about perception
The Wolf

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#135080 - 09/20/04 03:21 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Oh....and another point, most if not all ring sports are one on one......what about if there is 2 of these monsters[/QUOTE]

Pearmount I think it was in Sydney Australia, two people in one go, I won and one had a stick. I used Muay Thai THE RING SPORT.

Drill sparring is not like Kata, it is where you litterally spar in a resisting manner a new technique then you spar (free spar) once you have developed that technique. Yes Commandos and SAS (you talking british here) do drills, of course they do. What do you think they do? just theoretically talk about their training then hope it works during conflict... mate, c'mon. haha.

Ring sport has its place in selfdefense. I know for 100%. You take an all round ring fighter with a years fight experience and pit him against a 3rd degree black belt in some system but the bb hasnt ever fought but he has like 20 years experience in training selfdefense, who do you think will win?

fighting is whats important. There is a slight difference between street fighting and comeptitive fighting, again I know I have been there done it and bought the T-shirt. Its funny how a ring sport always seems to help me out.

Sparring and resistance (be it in pad work or whatever) is the key to good training, this is what develops teh reflex needed to fight. Then fighting is what develops your ability to actually fight.... I totally disagree with you by saying sparring is usless... that is, in my opinion, utter nonsense. You may "humbly" learn the hard way some day. I think you need to fight a trained ring fighter on the dreaded street to fully understand how effective these ring fighters can actually be on the street. I have heard this arguement a bajillion times, usually from people who have never competed so have absolute ZERO knowledge of what its like to either fight in a ring and with someone highly skilled and not to mention very fit. I have fought inside and outside... to me the risks are higher outside the ring but the hitting is the same

goodluck with your theroy training.

My post may seem aggressive, well sorry about that. I aint but if you want to look at that way feel free to do so.

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#135081 - 09/20/04 10:39 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


The guy with the stick must not of trained with sticks.

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#135082 - 09/20/04 05:43 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I’m getting into this one…..

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Now....I do not claim to be an expert on thai boxing....I do not pretend to be one either. I admire your knowledge of the Thai arts....It's inspiring.....that's for sure....I have a passing interest in Muay Thai and practice many techniques from Muay Thai in my current system (no system)...I haven't overly studied the last 2000 years in relation to Muay Thai....but I know what I see today.....and what I see today is a sport.

Sorry to have to disagree with your view of “sport”. Sport training is CRITICAL for fighting ability. Why? Because it creates PERFORMANCE ABILITY, something completely lacking in dead patterns and dead training methods.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Sparring is only important in the sporting paradigm...it has no use anywhere else....
[/QUOTE]

Unless of course, one’s ability to perform,(i.e., execute technique against an alive, resisting opponent is important) – then sparring becomes VERY important.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

yes it can create vision....but sparring is not the only way. I prefer muscle memory...so that the average citizen can protect them selves under an adrenal dump.....
[/QUOTE]

Ah yes, muscle memory. It’s assumed that thousands of repetitions of a technique can create muscle memory, but, when it’s trained in a dead manner without the ALL important attribute of timing, then you might as well just hit a non moving makiwara all day long. You’ll achieve the same results – zero ability to fight.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Stick and move will not aid any commando or SAS soldier in what there objective is...the main objective is to incapacitate the assailant....not out score the opponent.
[/QUOTE]

Has nothing to DO with outscoring. It has EVERYTHING to do with dealing with someone that is actually FIGHTING BACK – something not addressed within “dead” training methods.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Commado's do not spar! Practicing drills is not sparring....I feel that there is a difference...in fact practicing drills can be linked to kata...there are set movements, set patterns, although drill work can also be done in a spontaneous manner.....I still believe that it's not sparring. (my view)
[/QUOTE]

If they do not spar, then their training is contrived – no matter how realistic the drills appear to be. If there is no sparring, there is no “real” resistance. If there is no real resistance, how can you expect the training to be realistic? Sparring isn’t training so much as it is TESTING your ability against non-compliant opposition, (although there IS an tremendous learning experience found in sparring). Sparring teaches what you are “capable” of doing when someone is fighting you back. It tests your ability to perform. Opting OUT of sparring is just a cop-out. Saying that your training is “for street only” is often just an excuse to not step up.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

The reason that Elite soldiers do not spar is because sparring teaches bad habits in relation to hand to hand combat....the distancing is wrong...
[/QUOTE]

How do you acquire proper distancing when using some “contrived” training method? And, how is THAT distance correct when a NON compliant opponent is offering real resistance? Can’t you see how contrary that thinking is?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

.there are moments in sparring where both opponents do not engage .....there is no follow through....there is an obligation to protect your sparring partner......Soldiers need to be programmed in a different way...touch contact sparring is useless....infact, full contact ring fighting is also useless to their objective...one of the things that military hand to hand combat teaches is finger/hand dismemberment...
[/QUOTE]

How do you go about practicing such techniques, if not by PRETENDING to do them? How can ANY amount of pretension create a reality? How can such “fantasy martial arts” produce realistic performance integrity?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

You mentioned that no one want's to get hurt at training....of course this is true...so how can you spar using techniques that a taught to kill??? It would be very dangerous to use killer techniques in an unrehearshed "spar"..
[/QUOTE]

SO, the option is to PRETEND to train, and have some false notion (not too mention false confidence) that pretend training is going to get it done in the real world. The fact is, anyone training in a pretend manner would be taken APART by a “sport” guy in the ring AND on the street. The reason is because of the attributes developed via alive training that CANNOT in any way, shape or form, be replicated through fantasy training.

Of course, street guys KNOW that they would get their asses handed to them in the ring. Then you end up hearing such utter nonsense as, “You might BEAT me with rules, but without rules I’d kick your…..”, and other such bullshit. The fact is, that without rules, the sport guys wouldn’t just “win”, they KILL the guy without performance ability.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Once again I maintain that it is dangerous, and somewhat naive to think that ring sports are self defence systems.....yes you can use boxing and kick boxing to protect yourself....but not against everyone.....(just to make a point....you can blind anyone by poking them in the eyes
[/QUOTE]

How do you know you can even HIT the eyes? What if you miss? Why can’t a boxer hit the eyes as well? Why is it always ASSumed that sport fighters can’t fight dirty? That kind of assumption can run up your hospital bills…


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

.....you won't always drop everyone using a low leg kick)...I like to train for the most difficult situation....in the hope that it never arrises.....What if there is a 200kg (not sure what that is in pounds) monster (maybe a kickboxer) that has an upper body as large as a house.....wanting to beat me up....what if I can't get out of the confrontation....what if my adrenaline dump has me unclear......what will I have to rely on in this case....I don't think it will be my kickboxing skills.....what ever is programmed into my muscle memory will be my response under these conditions.......
If that happens to be touch contact sparring....I'm in trouble.....
[/QUOTE]

If it happens to be training culled from dead patterns and PRETEND methods, you’re in even MORE trouble.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Oh....and another point, most if not all ring sports are one on one......what about if there is 2 of these monsters....what then?
[/QUOTE]

Well, honestly how you train your delivery systems is entirely up to the individual. It’s fairly easy for guys who train athletically (read, “sportively”) to add another person to the mix and train for that situation. It should go without saying that it’s unrealistic to believe that a lone individual is capable of defeating multiple skilled, conditioned, and committed attackers. This isn’t Hollywood…..(methinks someone’s been watching too many kung fu movies lately)


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

I did however want to make the distinction between, a sport and ....and reality based training...
[/QUOTE]

How one can make the argument that pretend training is realistic, and real training is pretend, is WAY beyond me.

-John

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#135083 - 09/20/04 05:55 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
One more quote to completely disassemble [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Even while in the Thai clinch.....why would I allow myself to "trade" knees and elbows...when I can poke my thumb through my opponents eye (this goes for ground grappling as well)......
[/QUOTE]

How would you do this from a good clinch, when your whole body will be completely controlled? How will it be possible when you haven’t the ability to use your arms in any effective way?

Now, when I clinch with you and have controlled your body, I’ll have free reign to launch whatever strikes I want, be they punches, elbows, knees, takedowns, or…..EYE GOUGING – all from the vantage point of a controlled tie-up. See the point?

As far as ground grappling is concerned, if you TRY to gouge the eyes, you’d only put your arms out of position and into peril. Obviously you’re not much of a grappler or you’d have known that already. Go ahead and try to gouge out a skilled grapplers eyes, lol. You’ll end up choked out or have your arms broken for trying.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

this is clearly not legal in the ring.....but we are not specifically talking about the ring....The Thai grapple is also the perfect position to have a judo type shoot performed on the grappler.....a sport mentality can be a problem at times....
[/QUOTE]

Not if you understood proper tie-ups. You’d realize that the forearm must be cleared before you can launch any kind of effective shot – but then again as I said previously, you’re obviously not a grappler and would have no understanding of such things.

Remember this tough guy – what you don’t know is what you’ll get beaten with. Clearly that is clinch and ground....

-John

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#135084 - 09/20/04 06:32 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


And here I was hoping that my first posts on this forum would get on your good side!!

I've read your posts before....and I like some of your points ....it's human nature to want to defend yourself....or your systems.....I can appreciate this....

But is there a need for the "tough guy" tag...and the derogatory tone.... I have in no way been disrespectful..... I choose not to operate at that level...
Many of your points are valid....however, I will not be swayed in my opinion by petty name calling John....

Do you get a kick out of the way you treat people.....was I fresh meat on the forum for you to attack....there are many ways to put your point accross.....the way you have chosen to address my points show's your character...once again, I choose not to operate at that level...
I thought and still think that there are points worthy of debate...however, I can see that I would need to take your petty verbal abuse along the way....and I choose not to!

Thanks for you time

The Wolf

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#135085 - 09/20/04 07:53 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


OK....but who said I was a combat guy....your pretty quick to judge aren't you?
I'm not a combat guy ....although I may practice their mind set to a small degree.

But it's interesting that you would label what is taught to our most elite soldiers and protectors as "bullshit"...
If this is the case John.....and everyone else is doing it wrong....(and no one else seems to have the same experience as you)....why don't you take the opportunity to offer your services to teach the various armies of the world to clinch and ground grapple.....

It never ceases to amaze ME how completely one eyed people can be....

The Wolf

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#135086 - 09/20/04 08:46 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

OK....but who said I was a combat guy....your pretty quick to judge aren't you?
[/QUOTE]

I can only go by your posts man. In those, you specify a "combat" approach vs. "sport" approach. What else am I to think?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

I'm not a combat guy ....although I may practice their mind set to a small degree.
[/QUOTE]

I'm not a combat guy either and I as well practice their mind-set to a small degree. Perhaps we've something in common.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

But it's interesting that you would label what is taught to our most elite soldiers and protectors as "bullshit"...
[/QUOTE]

I have trained alongside elite soldiers and I have had police and SWAT team guys training in my gym. I'm pretty familiar with their ranks. They all prefer to train alive, just like so many more of them do every day as they begin to see the shortcomings of dead patterns and compliant resistance.

It's interesting to note that they've all pretty much said the same things: That what you're taught in the service, is just enough to get you killed. I could not agree more with them.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

If this is the case John.....and everyone else is doing it wrong....
[/QUOTE]

Everyone IS NOT doing it wrong "The Wolf", (why is everyone having to use an alias around here???) as I spoke of briefly in my last paragraph. Many more such organizations are adopting alive (read, sportive/athletic training vs. resisting partners/opponents) methods of training. It's only common sense.

Certainly there are still places where LEO stuff and other such training uses dead patterns, etc., but this is surely being replaced with much more effecient methods found within combat sports.

WHY is it more efficient? For the simple reason that bad guys in the real world resist. They do not "play along" as people do when training dead patterns and kata. There is no room in the real world for contrived training methods.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

(and no one else seems to have the same experience as you)
[/QUOTE]

Oh but you're wrong. I'm just a flunky compared to some guys out there! Matt Thornton, Paul Sharp, Adam Singer, Luis Gutierrez, Tom Oberhue....the list goes ON and on, ALL can whip MY hiney, lol. That's a short list. A VERY short list.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

....why don't you take the opportunity to offer your services to teach the various armies of the world to clinch and ground grapple.....
[/QUOTE]

Those people I have mentioned already are. Trust me, word is getting out. Watch and see....


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:
It never ceases to amaze ME how completely one eyed people can be....

The Wolf
[/QUOTE]

By one-eyed, do you mean, experienced? Because, I have experienced BOTH methods which have been discussed here. That's why I have the perspective to label one less effective than the other. I trained using dead patterns and "combat drills" for most of my adult life. I'm 39 now. 8 years ago my training changed for the better when I was handed my ASS by a "sport" guy. I've never looked back.

And it gets better every day!


By the way, I thought we were going to be "nice"???


-John [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 09-20-2004).]

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#135087 - 09/20/04 08:49 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


OK so the thread is continuing to get carried away. Anyone interested in bringing it back on topic? Jeet Kune Do? System or Philosophy? it was going well for awhile and then kept getting distracted.
My view on the subject is that JKD is a philosophy that has been present in all martial arts for all time, when it comes to true effectiveness, Bruce Lee made the idea popular and named it, people started to study him, and then JKD became a style in and of itself, contradicting the entire principle behind it.
The idea of formlessness and using what one knows best is the ultimate end to martial arts. Being able to take everything one has learned and weed out all the pointless (to the individual) crap, and use whatever kept you alive on the battlefield. Scroll up to my post about the Roman army in this thread for elaboration.
Comments?

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#135088 - 09/20/04 08:57 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Threads are going to get hijacked every once in awhile. But it’s a good debate. Wolf, if you’d like to create another thread, please feel free. Or, to tsai's kung fu, please feel free as well.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

OK so the thread is continuing to get carried away. Anyone interested in bringing it back on topic? Jeet Kune Do? System or Philosophy? it was going well for awhile and then kept getting distracted.
[/QUOTE]

I think Lee clearly stated it himself by saying that he had in fact, NOT created another style.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

My view on the subject is that JKD is a philosophy that has been present in all martial arts for all time, when it comes to true effectiveness, Bruce Lee made the idea popular and named it, people started to study him, and then JKD became a style in and of itself, contradicting the entire principle behind it.
[/QUOTE]

I agree COMPLETELY with that sentiment! I will say however, that there are certain circles who do continue to live by the principles upon which JKD was founded. Those groups DO exist, but you do have to look for them.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsai's kung fu:

The idea of formlessness and using what one knows best is the ultimate end to martial arts. Being able to take everything one has learned and weed out all the pointless (to the individual) crap, and use whatever kept you alive on the battlefield. Scroll up to my post about the Roman army in this thread for elaboration.
Comments?
[/QUOTE]


Well said. But you see, the notion of "weeding out" the pointless CRAP, is the crux of the debate between "THE WOLF" and I. How else is a person to weed out if one doesn't TEST what it is he's learning? What's the acid test for one's technique and one's ability if not through competition of one form or another against an alive, resisting partner or opponent? The sportive, athletic approach IS the "battlefield"!


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 09-20-2004).]

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#135089 - 09/21/04 09:00 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
I think I gotta agree with the "test it" debate.

Take away what is useless.


Ok, I am training hard at something, I am already quite proficient at what I do but now I am being shown (maybe from a different instructer) something new, a new combo or technique. I will first learn the movements of that technique, I will go through these movements with my partner then I will drill them. My idea of a drill is taking only the chosen technique and sparring with it adding no other technique, developing timing and reflex for the chosen technique THEN I free spar with all my techniques.

now thats all well and good. But what if this new technique I am being shown seems to take a little time to get to grips withand we havnt even started drills or sparring yet? We've all been there, standing there in class or the gym and you're shown a technique that is so complicated and tricky that its dificult doing it even without any resistance! These techniques, in my opinion, should be removed from fighting arts and thrown in the bin forever! they have no place in fighting as they are too complicated and require way too much concentration to apply so therefore are a hinderance on the practitioner... unless you simply want to leartn them for the sake of cultural heritage etc then thats fine but for fighting KEEP IT SIMPLE.

Street fighting vs Sportive.

Ok, the wolf, you seem to be pretty confident in saying that street defense training is superior to sport. Ok I will try to seperate the two. Street defense is training in fouling techniques and teaching AWARENESS to the practitioner... in other words self defense training teaches the student to be aware of the possability of bites, gouges, multiple opponents and weapons. Ok, thats great stuff and I totally agree that sport training does not teach you to be aware of these risks. Now then, self defense teaches one to defend himself and fight if need be, sport training teaches one to defend himself and fight NOT if need be but because he must fight. Self defense practitioners are usually not the greatest of athletes... usually, in comparision to a sportive fighter the difference in cardio and muscle strength is almost always huge.

So now on one side you have a pure combative practitioner training in fouling technqiues and deadly moves and on the other side a pure sportive fighter trained highly in the art of fighting. Ok said about adrenal dump... lemme ask you a question The Wolf, who do you think will be more comfortable with the adrenalin dump? the sport guy or the combative self defense guy? out of teh two who do you think will be more than comfortable when fists and feet start flying?

The thing is, sport guys who dont train fouling will undoubtably learn the hard way that fouling is done outside the ring but what a sport guy has is fantastic phyisical condition, fight experience, experience in what works and what doesnt and expeirence with adrenalin dump... it doesnt take long to program the mind into accepting fouling techniques but it takes quite some time to gain fight experience and learn how to handle adrenalin dump.

Now the British SAS and Commando's always do EVERYTHING in a sparring way. They bin what is useless, they train in such a way that its very similar to the conditons of combat. I know this as my father was sergeant in a particular regiment of the British army, I have grown up around military and I myself have lived in a Barrack block because of it.

Of course infantry train in a non specific set way, they have foundations to work from but they are not that stupid to simply follow a set pattern. They know every situation is unique but they also know that certain tools work for certain situations but its knowing when and how to use them thats important. The same in a fight anywhere be it outside teh ring or not. If you train properlly and train in different scenarios you will then become familiar with the versatility of particular tools, i.e. the punch, kick, knee, elbow, bite etc etc and so on. Sport training is good training because it develops your ability to fight, now take sport training (without changing the way the training is conducted) add into it fouling technqiues... now you have a good self defense structure... fouling techniques and being aware of them are the base of self defense, by simply adding these into your already efficient training program you will benifit mor ethan the man who does not spar, train in a resiting manner and/or pressure test (as John puts it).

resistance - drills

free sparring

pressure testing (fighting)

without these elements in your training you will be on a long journey to become a good fighter.

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#135090 - 09/21/04 11:39 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote :"Well said. But you see, the notion of "weeding out" the pointless CRAP, is the crux of the debate between "THE WOLF" and I. How else is a person to weed out if one doesn't TEST what it is he's learning? What's the acid test for one's technique and one's ability if not through competition of one form or another against an alive, resisting partner or opponent? The sportive, athletic approach IS the "battlefield"!"


-John and MuayThai
I dont mean my questions to be silly or rude. I have alot of respect you guys and your approachs. I don't know if I would agree that it "IS the battlefield" maybe one of them. I think life in general is a pretty good test and probably just as much a battlfield as the ring.
As for weeding out the pointless crap. I know that you guys are serious and think deeply. I was wondering , what if after years of competeing or overcoming resisting opponants one might look back and find it pointless? Is it the testing of your abilities that is the point?
oldman


[This message has been edited by oldman (edited 09-21-2004).]

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#135091 - 09/21/04 01:04 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


I say the point is understanding yourself and your limitations. Knowing that you gave it your all, and did the best you could. KNowing that you learned something, and that you did something. You actually got off your butt and worked hard for something you really wanted, learned a skill you really desired, all fighting aspects aside, the point then becomes one of self recognition and actualization. To really know ones self.

"They" say that beginners are always training their bodies. Intermediate's are always perfecting their techniques through competition, To be truly advanced, everything is internal, and the entire idea of fighting for any reason becomes ludacris. The best master's fought until they found out what a master was. That's just what "they" say.

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#135092 - 09/21/04 05:06 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by oldman:


-John and MuayThai
I dont mean my questions to be silly or rude. I have alot of respect you guys and your approachs. I don't know if I would agree that it "IS the battlefield" maybe one of them. I think life in general is a pretty good test and probably just as much a battlfield as the ring.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your input, Oldman.

Certainly, it’s just but “one battlefield” (competitive training) but it is UNQUESTIONABLY the one that most time can be spent within. And, considering that battlefield experience (one’s own, not someone else’s) is what’s MOST important with regard to developing not just the technical proficiency of the fighter, but the fighting mindset as well; much more actual fight time can be garnered by way of athletic, competitive training (regardless of whatever rules one chooses to engage with) than can be obtained by actually going out on the ‘street’, where the competition is questionable and the consequences are severe. I think this is common sense.

Before I go on, please note that there are differences (although slight) between what is a “ring sport” and what is a “delivery system”. Circumstances dictate tactics, but delivery systems do not change. That’s a fundamental truth that combat guys haven’t yet grasped about us “sport” guys….

[QUOTE]Originally posted by oldman:

As for weeding out the pointless crap. I know that you guys are serious and think deeply. I was wondering , what if after years of competeing or overcoming resisting opponants one might look back and find it pointless?
[/QUOTE]

Considering the opposite, NEVER! I’ve really had too much fun (which is what it’s really all about) training athletically. I’ve gotten too many benefits (increased levels of performance ability, increased levels of fitness/conditioning, met so many really cool people with great, healthy attitudes). These things will stay with me for the rest of my years.

However, if I’d spent the next 25 years or so doing nothing but dead patterns, contrived partner drills using compliant resistance, I would without doubt, wonder if it was pointless! In fact, an honest person would KNOW it wasn’t worth it at all.

As mentioned, I’ve experienced BOTH methods of training. This is why I can speak on behalf of both. I’ve done scenario training, I’ve done “killing” techniques and it was ALL completely worthless when I went “tit for tat” against a sport guy who owned me in less than 30 seconds.

The dichotomy is stark between these methods. Consider that there are two fundamental methods of training:

1. Alive, athletic and non-compliant (sportive approach)
2. Dead, rigid, patterned and contrived (combat/street approach)

Now, after looking at it that way, it’s easy to see not only WHY I would chose the sportive approach, and why I would never wonder if it was worth it or not. After all, fighters FIGHT, they do not pretend to fight, as the vast majority of "street combat" guys do.

It’s just common sense.

Another thing that I’ve noticed about the “street/combat” crowd versus the “sport” crowd; Guys who spend all of their lives doing this combat training using scenario drills, contrived resistance, wearing camo fatigues, etc. all seem to walk through their lives (while armed to the TEETH) in paranoia – just waiting for the day when the attacker hiding in the bushes materializes. Of course that day may never come and even if it did, they’d likely not actually be prepared for it as a guy with a gun or a knife in your kidney rarely advertises himself coming. By the time it’s happened, it’s usually too late to do anything about OTHER THAN, hand over the wallet that he was asking for to BEGIN with (which is always the best option).

Consider also that these people are predators. They always come armed and often in numbers. Realistically speaking, there is NO martial art that will even the odds in that scenario!

It’s better to live life using the "self-preservation" mentality as opposed to the “self-defense” mindset. The former has you living in ways in which trouble is avoided (the PRO-active approach) while the latter has one “doing something ABOUT” trouble (the RE-active approach). Again it’s clear which is the most effective.

The “sport” guys (most of whom can certainly “handle themselves” on the street) all seem to have the healthier attitudes because their egos have been adjusted in positive ways. This is because they all KNOW that they can be beat at any given time. They know that there are people out there who deserve respect as opponents, because they’ve gone up against them. They learn that they aren’t necessarily a walking, talking “death machine” (although, I would put my hard earned money on them in a fight against a “camo wearing, kombat killer” ANY day of the week!)

This is directly OPPOSITE the ego-feeding ways of “pretend” training where, we always “win” (you know your roles in these drills ahead of time – there is no guessing as to whom the winner will be or what the outcome will be), we always “look good” while we “win” and we all leave the training center feeling like the worlds biggest bad-asses.

We’re all born into this world with our own unique hang-ups and insecurities. This is why so many of us venture forth to the martial arts. The sportive, athletic approach provides the greatest, most efficient vehicle of growing BEYOND those hang-ups and insecurities. This is demonstrated on a routine basis as I see guys personalities blossom after spending 6 months to a year (or more) training in this manner. Isn’t this truly the more “pro-social” method? Wouldn’t this be better than simply cranking out more insecure and paranoid, “death machines” and combat fatigue wearing “street fighters” using a fantasy-based martial arts method where nothing happens but the care and feeding of egos? I think that answer is obvious and again, is just common sense.

Again, it’s easy to see which approach would yield the healthiest attitudes.

We all mostly began our martial arts journey in an effort to develop ourselves as a functional, efficient fighter. We did this however for a variety of reasons. It would seem only sensible that, we can reach that state in the quickest time with optimal results by actually “doing” that for which we claim to train to BEGIN with – and that’s FIGHTING, not “pretending” to fight.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by oldman:


Is it the testing of your abilities that is the point?
[/QUOTE]

That's certainly ONE of them! We must, if we're sincerely seeking the truth, question everything we've been taught and told, as well as TEST each thing we learn rather than just accept them on faith. Besides, NO ONE ELSE has our best interests at heart other than we ourselves.


Thanks


-John Kogas

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 09-21-2004).]

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#135093 - 09/21/04 06:53 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
bjjchick Offline
Member

Registered: 12/08/03
Posts: 51
Loc: NC, USA
JKogas-

NICE job on the post. I do believe it is one of your best. Keep it up.

*bjjchick*

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#135094 - 09/21/04 06:56 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi gang

John you can be very articulate when you want to be....love your work...

I did want to make one point, I have also used various training methods...I hold ranks in muay thai and a freesytle karate and I'm now enjoying the freedom of a "street smart system".
Our main focus is drill work.....we do not spar....the theory is because sparring encourages long drawn out confrontations....and also teaches some bad habits relative to the street....ultimately we aim for a submission or bone break....quickly...as soon as the assailant throws a strike, we "swallow it" by entering and we diffuse the situation instantly by controlling the situation with either a choke/submission/etc...rather than keeping the space cushion associated with "stick and move" and ring sports...and trading blows.....There is plenty of pad work as we move through the ranks, that's mainly so that students will be able to read the strikes that come at them.....not because the aim is to create ring fighters....but to create muscle memory....
The more you see strikes coming at you....the more you will be able to read them.....and evade them

The point I'm trying to make is....while doing this constant pad work without any sparring.....I found out that I was "reprogrammed" the next time I did put the gloves on for sparring..(around 3 months later)....I found it hard to pull punches....mainly because the pad work is done in a full contact environment....I was loosing my sense of "control"....is this a bad thing??? I would much rather be programmed for a "full contact dynamic" in the street...not a touch contact dynamic...my distancing had improved...my evasion had improved......and all of this was because of pad work....not sparring!!!

This type of training is not for everyone.....I personally have no intention of ever fighting in a ring.....obviously, sparring is very necessary in the sporting world.....However,I can seen the negatives that sparring and sport for that matter has on various martial arts.....for example....when was the last time that you sparred and did not use the "stick and move" principal.....when was the last time you sparred with open hands.....when was the last time you sparred someone who was not using the same rules as you.....when was the last time you sparred without a time limit..... I've never seen a street fight last more that 15 seconds!!! hmmmm food for thought.....and can I also say that drill work is not always as orchestrated as we think....partners doing drills can offer resistance too....a random attack that needs to be dealt with is often employed.

Yes....sparring is a valid tool in learning vision....but it's not the only way....and I think we should all be conscious that sparring does actually hold negative points as well......

The Wolf

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#135095 - 09/21/04 08:39 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Hi gang

John you can be very articulate when you want to be....love your work... [QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:


Thanks. Apologies for harsh words from earlier posts….

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

I did want to make one point, I have also used various training methods...I hold ranks in muay thai and a freesytle karate and I'm now enjoying the freedom of a "street smart system".
Our main focus is drill work.....we do not spar....the theory is because sparring encourages long drawn out confrontations
[/QUOTE]

Those long, drawn out confrontations are important in their own right for all of the reasons stipulated earlier and, mustn’t be overlooked.

I DO understand your point about wanting to end a confrontation quickly – SO DO WE! And we practice for that as well. That program is called the ISR (intercept, stabilize, resolve). But that program doesn’t not replace standard training. The athletes who practice both approaches are much better than do the guys who practice the ISR alone. This is solely because of the attributes developed through sparring. That’s one clear example of why it’s important.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

....and also teaches some bad habits relative to the street....ultimately we aim for a submission or bone break....quickly...as soon as the assailant throws a strike, we "swallow it" by entering and we diffuse the situation instantly by controlling the situation with either a choke/submission/etc
[/QUOTE]

The question becomes, how do you TRAIN that without sparring it? You see, I’ve seen COUNTLESS people try practicing such things in dead manners and when they attempted to roll with us live, they were tapped like BABIES! This is because they had no attributes! They had no “game”, if you will. This can’t be created through dead patterns and contrived resistance. It’s not possible. There are too many cases where this has been proven, seen and experienced.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

...rather than keeping the space cushion associated with "stick and move" and ring sports...and trading blows.....There is plenty of pad work as we move through the ranks, that's mainly so that students will be able to read the strikes that come at them
[/QUOTE]

Read the strikes that come at them, yet there are unable to train the all important aspect of COUNTER FIGHTING. The timing just won’t be there as how you’ve described. TIMING is perhaps the single most important attribute of an efficient fighter.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

...not because the aim is to create ring fighters....but to create muscle memory....[b[/QUOTE]

Yes, I’m all too aware of this muscle memory concept. I just don’t agree with you though. Muscle memory created through dead patterns is different than is muscle memory created through alive patterns against real resistance. That’s what you’re just not seeing.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

The more you see strikes coming at you....the more you will be able to read them.....and evade them
[/QUOTE]

That’s EXACTLY why sparring becomes so important! You’ve just said as much yourself without even realizing.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

The point I'm trying to make is....while doing this constant pad work without any sparring.....I found out that I was "reprogrammed" the next time I did put the gloves on for sparring..(around 3 months later)....I found it hard to pull punches....mainly because the pad work is done in a full contact environment
[/QUOTE]

My friend, I’ve been a pad trainer for more than 15 years. I’ve known guys who did NOTHING but pad training. Can you guess what happened to these pad trainers when they finally got into the ring against guys who’d done pad work and tons of sparring?? They were DECIMATED! I can’t stress this enough. I’ve seen it happen with my own eyes. ZERO attributes.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

....I was loosing my sense of "control"....is this a bad thing??? I would much rather be programmed for a "full contact dynamic" in the street...not a touch contact dynamic...my distancing had improved...my evasion had improved......and all of this was because of pad work....not sparring!!!
[/QUOTE]

Pad training teaches basics. After a few weeks, you should drop the pads and spar. You’ll see (and feel) the difference in seconds. Pads are ok and teach tools, but they don’t accurately develop the tools AS YOU’LL USE THEM, unless you spar. It’s like standing beside a pool and pretending to swim compared to getting into the water and doing actual SWIMMING. Which is going to make you a better swimmer??? It’s just COMMON SENSE my friend.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

This type of training is not for everyone.....I personally have no intention of ever fighting in a ring.....obviously, sparring is very necessary in the sporting world.....However,I can seen the negatives that sparring and sport for that matter has on various martial arts.....for example....when was the last time that you sparred and did not use the "stick and move" principal.....when was the last time you sparred with open hands.....when was the last time you sparred someone who was not using the same rules as you.....when was the last time you sparred without a time limit..... I've never seen a street fight last more that 15 seconds!!!
[/QUOTE]

Friend, sparring takes many forms. But merely TELLING you about it isn’t going to properly relay what I’m saying. Have you ever done any vale tudo sparring? If not, I’d recommend it. The experience is going be the teacher, not the words FROM the teacher, get it? That’s what you’re robbing yourself of if you don’t spar.

Sparring should have variable rules. Don’t try and pigeon hole sparring as just one thing, or one way. You’ll miss the boat by doing that. Find a good MMA coach who can show you these things.

I understand that fights don’t last that long, but unless you actually TEST your technique, you’ll not know how well YOU can fight or if you’re any good at all. That’s what sparring is for man, it’s just a TEST! Take it for what it is.

You may be surprised to learn that 90% of what we do is drilling. That’s insanely important (alive drilling that is). However, to not test is ridiculous! Sparring is that test. Do you not test yourself?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

hmmmm food for thought.....and can I also say that drill work is not always as orchestrated as we think....partners doing drills can offer resistance too....a random attack that needs to be dealt with is often employed.
[/QUOTE]

Sounds as if you’re getting closer to sparring there bro [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Yes....sparring is a valid tool in learning vision....but it's not the only way....and I think we should all be conscious that sparring does actually hold negative points as well......

The Wolf
[/QUOTE]

Sparring does more than teach vision, it teaches the “what is” of fighting, without which you won’t be able to actually APPLY fighting skill or develop attributes for fighting.

Sparring holds VERY few negative points and that then, depends only on how it’s done (any given TKD sparring class is a bad example for the most part).


-John

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#135096 - 09/21/04 10:29 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi again

No appology is required John, I'm happy to be having this discussion...and thank you for your input...

I think we may have a different opinion on what sparring is!!
I consider a LIVE mini scenario to be a drill...for example....the attacker throws a flurry of punches (LIVE punches)....and the student needs to control this...in some manner...

Although this is live....I don't consider this to be sparring....especially because it ends up in some type of control.....not a continuous structure of trading blows...

Yes I do spar on occasion (muay thai, kickboxing, boxing)and I can only really speak of my own experience...the pad work has definately improved my fighting skill (or ability to spar) without actually learning sparring (if that makes sense).....

But still there are limits...
I can visualise an opportunity for takedowns and a type of control....yet the "rules" that we are sparring by forbid me to do so....

It's the notion that some techniques are "forbiden" or "restricted" that is programmed into students that regularly spar that is part of the problem...
I believe that you fight the way you train...especially under the influence of an adrenal dump....when your gross motor skills are diminished....you can only rely on what comes naturally (muscle memory)...some people call this instinct....

If the assailant has no concept of martial arts (generally, street thugs don't have the discipline to study martial arts)....they will have no concept of sparring...they will not agree to the rules.....they have no concept of stick and move....they are not honorable enough to avoid groin strikes (eyes, throat).....

Sparring (specifically ring sparring)is not the only method of reality type training...

What do you think?

The Wolf

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#135097 - 09/22/04 01:05 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


John,
Thanks for your response to my questions.
I'd like to take a moment to clarify something I wrote. When I wrote

"I think life in general is a pretty good test and probably just as much a battlfield as the ring."

I did not mean fighting in the street as a test of effectiveness. I'm not a Combat survival kind of guy. I'm more of a dead forms occaisional Gracie seminar guy. beside Green camo pants make my butt look big. What I meant was daily life as a test of our will and character. You know squabbles with the first, second or third wife. Going to work, paying for college or new wheels for the house. Stuff like that.
As I said earlier you are obviosly a deep thinker. What I was hoping to get to was somthing you have touched on before. You refer to the "truth of fighting" and the "what is" of fighting. I'm glad to hear that you place fun as one of the priorities of your training also.
I guess a question that I have for you is about the "truth" as it is expierienced in other arts. Not other fighting arts but arts such as sculpture, economics,medicine, and dance. As an example, the "truth of music" or the "truth of plumbing". How do you imagine your expierience of your art differs from the expieriences of people practicing those other pursuits?
It seems to me that the only limitation to your approach is adding the words "of fighting" after the word "truth".

oldman


[This message has been edited by oldman (edited 09-22-2004).]

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#135098 - 09/22/04 04:36 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:
I hold ranks in muay thai [/QUOTE]

How can you hold ranks in Muay Thai? I am VERY confident that there are no such things in Muay Thai. Individual gyms do "create" a grading structure for teh sake of class but they are meaningless outside of the gym where they are created. Unless you are ranked in the Offical fighter Rankings...

....I dunno, grading doesnt exist in Muay Thai.

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#135099 - 09/22/04 05:20 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

I think we may have a different opinion on what sparring is!!
I consider a LIVE mini scenario to be a drill...for example....the attacker throws a flurry of punches (LIVE punches)....and the student needs to control this...in some manner...[/QUOTE]

This is called sparring. When someone throws punches at you, unpredictable wild punches and YOU are forced to defend and/or counter then this is called sparring.

[QUOTE]Although this is live....I don't consider this to be sparring....especially because it ends up in some type of control.....not a continuous structure of trading blows...[/QUOTE]

Mate, I dont know your expeirence but buy the way you talk you OBVIOUSLY have never traded with or even tried to take a proficient ring fighter. Sport fighters do not necessarily want to trade blows. For example, my Kru in Thailand KO'd a man in 30 seconds because he had another 2 fights in teh same week and didnt want to be injured. The fact is this, unless you come against an incompetant man then you are more than likely gonna trade for a bit. Two skilled "experienced" fighters will more than likely trade blows inside or outside a ring.

[QUOTE]Yes I do spar on occasion (muay thai, kickboxing, boxing)and I can only really speak of my own experience...the pad work has definately improved my fighting skill (or ability to spar) without actually learning sparring (if that makes sense).....[/QUOTE]

How long have you been doing the pad work? Lemme explain something, not meaning to sound patronising, its great that you have learned that GOOD pad work is part fo what makes up good training but you are forgeting teh most important part of FIGHT training, this is sparring and actually being tested under extreme pressure, i.e. fighting. Fighting in a ring or not, it does NOT matter. You are expeirencing the effects a fight has onyour mentality and phyisiology. You expeirence everything even if your rules keep you to kicking and punching. Its this experience of the emotions and adrenalin dump which helps the student to become accustomed to the effects a fight has on your body. Without this experience you are simply guessing and hoping.

[QUOTE]But still there are limits...
I can visualise an opportunity for takedowns and a type of control....yet the "rules" that we are sparring by forbid me to do so....[/QUOTE]

Again you misunderstand the concept of fighting and sparring. When I spar in Muay Thai we tend do have long drawn out rounds, 5-10 rounds, basicly we have a rest inbetween to talk about things with each other, technique etc. We spar pretty fast but keep the contact to around 50-60% as the techniques in Muay Thai can injure you pretty fast. 50% strikes 50% clinch grappling, the grappling part we allow all takedowns and throws. The previous sunday I actually did some MMA NHB sparring with two guys from one of the MMA class, I love sparring with different people of different wieghts etc, I mean its great and really teaches me a lot about idividuals "ways" how they move their weight etc. My ground work is pretty basic, I can escape a gaurd and get the arm bar that the position you hold after escaping the gaurd (side mount is it?) allows for, I can jaw lock the opponent when I am in his gaurd (Naban Jawlock) and do a few other things like bite and defend against bite but as far as ground fighting goes I would say I am weak. But i do it nonethless because it (NHB - Muay Thai sparring) builds dynamic strength, sharp reflex and instinct, it helps to develop that very important "will" to win, the survival instinct that you need to win a fight. I am much lighter then the MMA guys but I am still doing it.

[QUOTE]It's the notion that some techniques are "forbiden" or "restricted" that is programmed into students that regularly spar that is part of the problem...[/QUOTE]

In a sense you're right but how do you train deadly techniques??? You cant so its always best to rely on whats proven and works.

[QUOTE]I believe that you fight the way you train...especially under the influence of an adrenal dump....[/QUOTE]

If you find that adrenal dump affects your ability during a fight then you are what "ring fighters" call, INEXPERIENCED!

[QUOTE]when your gross motor skills are diminished....you can only rely on what comes naturally (muscle memory)...some people call this instinct....[/QUOTE]

Insinct for fighting doesnt come easily, developed through hard training (being pushed beyond your limits) and sparring then it is born through fighting.

[QUOTE]If the assailant has no concept of martial arts (generally, street thugs don't have the discipline to study martial arts)....they will have no concept of sparring...they will not agree to the rules.....[/QUOTE]

And do you think a ring fighter with a bit of fight experience is totally bound by the rules of a ring outside the ring? You are forgeting, most ring fighters have lives outside of fighting, the walk teh street and they usually tend to come from hard areas. This is a stupid arguement. I have countless BOXER (only using their fists) friends who have cleaned the pavemewnt with many thugs.

[QUOTE]they will have no concept of sparring[/QUOTE] Not only that but they will also have no concept of technical fighting, well tuned skills, accurate hitting, strong body and knwoledge of the grappling areas and striking withing grappling. Unless these guys are talented fighters (which there are gusy likethat without any formal training) they are doomed at the hands of a ring fighter. Street thugs tend to telegraph attacks, the swing wildly and dont know how to fight. A ring fighter, only a simply boxer, will have a field day with an incompetant street thug.... again this is generalising because you do get the occasional thug who can and knows exactly how to fight.


[QUOTE]they have no concept of stick and move....they are not honorable enough to avoid groin strikes (eyes, throat).....[/QUOTE]

stick and move happens because two fighters confront each other and know they are equally skilled. Groin strikes are not that easy to get off and throat strikes and eye strikles are equally as complicated unless in a dominant position, i.e. head neck tie for headbutt or underhook where you can bite.

[QUOTE]Sparring (specifically ring sparring)is not the only method of reality type training...[/QUOTE]

Its not reality training but it teaches you how to fight!! Reality training should be done in the same manner but without rounds and maybe one more person added into the mix. The differences between street fighting and sport fighting are small. The differences between sport fight training and street combat training seem to be very huge... who would you think has the edge in a street fight? would it be a pure combative street fighting student or would it be a proficient Thaifighter, MMA, or Boxer etc?


You have valid opinions but you are failing to recognise the importance of sparring and actually fighting, what us sport folks do. As I said before, there is a Silat class in our gym on saturday, I respect them totally and I actually believe Silat (when trained properlly) is useful but mate, I am not s**ting you... they wouldnt stand a chance against our most proficient ring fighters and thats even when all rules have been removed, not a chance!! In fact I am thinking about how aggressive and how strong some of the guys are then I think about the "street trained" students... mate I think the look on one of our fighters faces alone would be enough to scare them away!

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#135100 - 09/22/04 06:33 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi guys

The form of Muay Thai that I studied is taught by the largest martial arts organization in Australasia....we have a singlet colour ranking system....we were one of the first to introduce this and many other clubs are starting to follow suit...
I train with the Chief Instructor who is a former WKA champion and title holder (among other things)....but enough about that....my rank is recognised in this organisation only....

I think we actually agree with each other on many points...maybe the interpretation of the word "sparring" is a little different...

I will have to humbly bow out of this thread because I think we will never agree on certain points and niether of us will change our minds on the issue....it's been a good discusssion and I look forward to having many more with you guys....
Can we agree to disagree??

The Wolf

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#135101 - 10/04/04 09:32 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Why does every thread end up in a conversation about Muay Thi kicks??
Or is this not the JKD forum?

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#135102 - 10/04/04 09:56 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
Lethal Striker

I dont know you so cant really say what is what with you.

If you talk about fighting then obviously there will be a time when MMA, Muay Thai and Boxing are almost alwasy mentioned in the converstaion. Think about it, if you feel insecure or threatend by someone talking about something that is as effectvie as it is simple then you gotta get the gloves on and try it out, I mean not to disrespect you just trying to explain why Muay Thai, MMA, Boxing is almost always mentioned when "fighting" is spoken about.

A Muay Thai kick, whether I studied Muay Thai or not or whether you like to agree or not is undoubtably the most feared kick in the martial arts world... now wouldnt it be quite sensible to ask for evasive techniques or counters to a kick that is so feared... and LS, if you do not fear this kick then you havnt felt what it can do!

I am not an academically clever guy but I have something what most academically educateded folks dont have, generally speaking. It doesnt matter how eloquently you write, it doesnt matter how your grammar is, it really doesnt matter if you can read or write where fighting is concerned. This is the beauty of fighting, you can read and theorise about fighting, you can make everything you say sound great and you can even hold master degrees in science of the body etc but all this will not enable you to fight nor will it help you understand what its like to fight, there are fighters and then there are guys who study fighting arts but really have no clue as to what fighting is.

ok, off point just slightly.....

You see me talk about Muay Thai or fighting, why is that ask yourself? Well I can give you one answer, its because I know it works and I have tried it and I have tested it inside and outside of the ring. Anyone I know who also studies Thai fighting arts can give 100% marks for its effectiveness and simplicity... this is not the be all and end all but mate it works and that fact will remain until it fails to do what it was created for. Biased or not, my opinions will be gone when I die but the effectivness of Muay Thai will more than likely still be around and there will be plenty more firey men with the same passion I have for MT....

it works LS, thats a proven fact. EVERY standup art has consistantly been defeated with rules or without rules by Muay Thai fighters. Sanshou was inspired by Muay Thai just as filipino boxing was also inspired by Muay Thai... sorry I should correct that, Siamese fighting arts and Burmese fighting arts have consistantly defeated almost every other asian fighting art during conflict and sports tournements. Those are facts.

Thai kick is mentioned because Thai kick is hard and sore and it is a concern to some fighters who have felt what it can do. My advice is fight to feel what its like then criticise, until then assumptions and guesses mean nothing.

Now I know those comments will attract a lot of flack but its water of a ducks back.

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#135103 - 10/04/04 12:16 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


MT, I should of put a smiley face in my last post. It was more tongue and cheek than anything else.

Allthough that I have never felt a real MT kick I agree with you that it is the most feared kick, based on what I have read. Unfortunately tone is hard to establish on message boards, or at least it is for me.

When I question you or your MT it is because I am interested in learning. I love to learn, not just about sport fighting, or MA's about anything and everything.
Out of curiosity do you have a clip of any of you matches? Preferably one that you have won.

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#135104 - 10/04/04 01:37 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
Lethal Striker

Mate, if anyone meets me in person they will soon realise that I am very easy going. Just excuse the grammar msitakes and my way of writing, I know it can be confusing sometimes as it does confuse me when I re read it! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#135105 - 10/04/04 10:48 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Actually for simple power I think the stepping side kick can weild more damage done. Not to discredit Muay Thai. Being a FORMER Muay Thai fighter let me ask you this: Can Muay Thai withstand such arts that train in Muay Thai, and other systems as well? Probably not. JKD utilizes Muay Thai but it takes it further by incorporating Boxing, Wing Chun, and grappling from not only the stand up position but the ground as well. Not to discredit Muay Thai, it is a good art, but knees and elbows and arcing kicks do little against an opponent determined to put you on your back in a grappling mindset. Personally I wouldnt take it as a core art but instead as a good basis to start my own art.

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#135106 - 10/05/04 06:09 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
Chen Zen

Your opinoon is that the stepping side kick is stronger, thats cool, I have a different opinion, in fact in my last fight the guy I fought used a stepping side kick, get me some webspace and I will upload the exact part of the fight where he does his stepping side kick... to be honest, I fear a Thai roundkick more.

Muay Thai is basicly two 1/4's of what fighting is (Clinch/standup grappling and striking) the other 2 1/4's can be found in Pahuyuth, Krabi-Krabong, Bando, JuiJitsu or whatever else groundfighting and weapon art there is. Muay Thai is not a martial art it comes from a martial art. When you train in the Martial art of either Burma or Thailand then you really have no need to cross train, well in my opinion it can help by cross training in other fighting arts so as to learn how to defend against such arts but its not entirely necessary. Why should it be necessary to crosstrain when the martial art you train in is effective in all ranges of fighting??? (effective in all ranges, that is it is effective - it works) other than to know what you are fighting (know thy enemy) Maybe cross training is an opyion for those who dont have schools which teach such arts in their entirety... that is understandable. I would say argue with Randy Couture, ask him what he thinks of Burmese arts, ask Phil Dunlap what he things of Thai fighting arts, ask Tony More the same question... there ar emany MMA champions who have experienced and cross trained in such arts and are living proof that they work although these arts are not their base they ahve expeirenced them.

Muay Thai alone is VERY effective. When the practitioner of Muay Thai trains hard and uses the evasive and counter techniques which Muay Thai has to offer in order to evade or counter any technique from Muay Thai or similar attacks then you will see the beauty in Muay Thai.

Muay Thai is not a ground fighting sport, Muay Thai is not a martial art it is a sport which comes from a Martial Art... dude how many time must I repeat this??

I am very aware of the weakness of Muay Thai and I am very aware of the strengths of Muay Thai but I am also aware that what I train in is a sport taken from a martial art which is that bit more brutal and more combat ready... I am aware of that, I am also aware that any fight I have been in has been quickly stopped due to my skills in Muay Thai.

if what you want to talk about is fighting then thats what I am talking about, Muay Thai is fighting.

and so to keep it on topic, I think the philosophy of JKD is solid, its not new but its solid. I'll say from what I have experience in (that being Thai fighting and actually fighting) the philosophy of jkd can be seen in almost all performance sports.
JKD is a great way to categorise what was meant by its creator, Bruce did not create the already present concept of "binning whats not needed" but he did create JKD, the term used for describing the action of dispelling unusefull techniques... a bit like Matt Thorntons "Alive", its not new but he did come up with a way to describe the action of training in a productive and progressive resisiting way.

[This message has been edited by MuayThai (edited 10-05-2004).]

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#135107 - 10/05/04 04:08 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


According to John Little, author of the JKD series endorsed by the BL estate Bruce disbanned his schools and the physical art of JKD in 1971. JKD is a philosophy.
JB

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#135108 - 10/05/04 10:03 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Sure you can say that JKD is a philosophy but philosophy only? No. Although Bruce wished differently the JKD curriculum, including the Jun Fan curriculum is still being taught practiced and used in competitions worldwide. This very fact negates it being solely a philosophy.

Muay Thai, I meant not to discredit Muay Thai's abilities in creating solid fighters. However, being competent and being complete are not the same. I loved MT and still use some of it but the fact that you have to seek further instruction from an outside source to be competent on the ground show that Muay Thai isnt a complete art. It seems you have found something that you like and that has worked for you. Thats good just dont let it blind you to the fact that there are other things out there.

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#135109 - 10/06/04 09:02 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


JKogas

Why do you value punching more than kicking. I thought you could intercept much better using kicks???

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#135110 - 10/06/04 12:04 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


to start off, ive read a lot of crap in this thread from people who don't know what they're talking about.

jeet kune do, the way of the intercepting FIST, not foot. to the post above me.

someone said that bruce lee incorporated tkd, no he didnt. he never really took tkd. he thought it was crap. theres not one kick or punch that only tkd uses that bruce took to make jkd.

and JKD isnt 'what you want it to be' perse. there are certain techniques to it and if you go against those techniques, youre not doing jeet kune do. sorry, youre not. and if you take 4 different types of fighting, like karate, capoiera, tkd, and muay thai or whatever, and mix them together, thats not jkd. thats some really ****ed up style of your own. not saying it wont work, im sure its probably amazing and works but its NOT JEET KUNE DO. jeet kune do has its own punches, kicks, stance, etc. if youre not doing those, then youre not doing jkd. i dont remember seeing bruce lee doing capoeira dance moves while fighting, doing a cartwheel or something. go up to steve golden or someone and tell them how because you took these 4 styles and mixed em together and now you go around telling people you know jkd, he will more than likely laugh at you for being an idiot.

you have to first take jeet kune do, and understand it fully before you can 'add whatever you want to it.' because if you add telegraphical punches, or some stupid hurricane kick or whatever, thats not jeet kune do and youre going directly against it. simple, direct, effective. thats "the formula" of jeet kune do. and if you use for instance, karate punches,thats not jeet kune do. jkd uses a more effective punch, not a sideways fist punch.

bruce closed down his schools because he didnt want people going around using his name to get young students to join up. thats what was happening and so he closed them down. amongst other things which i wont get into. if bruce thought it was 'just a philosophy,' why did he privately teach a handful of people in his own backyard?? if its just a philosophy they coulda read about in a book. so you dont know what youre talking about.

theres much controversy in the jkd world, and its people who make it worse by going around telling people they know all about jkd because they watched enter the dragon 6 times and read the tao of jeet kune do. i mean obviously since you read the 'tao' youre an expert.

so please, if you've never really taken original jkd for atleast a year. dont go around talking like you know all about it. you dont.

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#135111 - 10/06/04 02:33 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Studying JKD as a style with a concrete set of moves and techniques, with set forms, stances and curriculums, is not JKD that's just adding more nonsense. I in no way claim to be an expert or even a practitioner of JKD but I can say with certainty that adding set curriculums and techniques, that everyone should use if they are using JKD is the exact opposite and negates everything Lee intended. This is why the original thread was system or philosophy. How can you take an idea, involving the creation of a fast efficient fighter, and then say that there is only this way to do it? Who's to say what worked for Lee will work for me, what if i have short stumpy legs, and long gangly arms, (I don't) but what if? I would have to use different techniques than someone with gangly legs and short stumpy arms. In order to be an efficient fighter, one must train with what there body can or will do. Some body types are just not capable of doing the things that others can. A short 95 pound girl should not be able to move and lift people like a tall 200 pound man. A slightly overweight man, most likely, will not be able to move around someone like a short spry little guy. Why are so many people insisting that it's all about hand techniques, when you can clearly see hundreds of pictures of Lee kicking people in the knees in every book that has ever been published on JKD? Is it just stubborness, or are some of these people just dense? No offense really meant just venting here. Why do so many people have to be blind to common sense and reality?

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#135112 - 10/16/04 05:47 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Razwell:
JKogas

Why do you value punching more than kicking. I thought you could intercept much better using kicks???
[/QUOTE]

You can intercept very effectively with a lead jab (or even a straight right hand). Timing is the issue. Develop timing/the ability to read your opponents subtle intentions and you're good to go.

This isn't to say that you CAN'T intercept with a kick because you certainly can. I just don't like taking my feet off the floor in real fights.


-John

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#135113 - 10/29/04 11:49 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


JKogas...Most of the time i agree with you, but on this instance i think you are wrong. First of all, kicking is good, powerful, and allows you to do more. Just because you lift a leg off the ground doesn't mean you are screwed, you can support your self with your hands.

Also, by teaching JKD as you described, you are destroying it's name. It actually means that you should create your own moves during a fight that adapt to your opponent's attacks and defense. Using different moves from different "styles" is MMA, aka mixed martial arts, and destroys the essence of what Mr. Lee was teaching. Make your own moves, manipulate your opponents attacks, and use all variables(don't just use your hands for one purpose and your legs for another). Freedom of movement, the ability to adapt, the fluidness of water, and expand your knowledge of fighting. This is what JKD is all about. So do the hokey-pokey!

"****in' A"

Good Luck and Fight Well

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#135114 - 10/30/04 02:17 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
mcgee Offline
Member

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 118
Loc: Lexington,NC USA
For security the ulimitited living is turned into somthing dead,a chosen pattern that limits. To understand Jeet Kune Do, one ought to throw away all ideals, patterns, styles; in fact, he should throw away even the concepts of what is or isn't ideal in Jeet Kune Do. Can you look at a situation without naming it? Naming it, making it a word, causes fear.

-Bruce Lee
Tao of Jeet Kune Do
page 11.

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#135115 - 10/30/04 02:29 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mcgee:
For security the ulimitited living is turned into somthing dead,a chosen pattern that limits. To understand Jeet Kune Do, one ought to throw away all ideals, patterns, styles; in fact, he should throw away even the concepts of what is or isn't ideal in Jeet Kune Do. Can you look at a situation without naming it? Naming it, making it a word, causes fear.

-Bruce Lee
Tao of Jeet Kune Do
page 11.
[/QUOTE]

why didnt he just speak bloody english like anyone else.

Just say "if its crap dont use it"

I mean, ok, he was eccentric and all but holy bejeezus, like the man has to make everything out in riddles and wierd philosophical mumbo jumbo!

if it doesnt work then dont use it - jeet kune do summed up in 8 words.

And anyway, even if he wanted to make it sound all mystical and stuff by rearranging those 8 words into a book... it still was not a new concept! lol.

I just dont get Bruce Lee and to be honest I personally believe he was nuts! Maybe he was a little too full of himself, what he really needed to do was take his philosophy and his invincibility to Thailand and challenge them there. I reckon, just as all other stand up styles had been in those years, he would have been carried out of the ring using his rules or not.

no disrespect to all you who really idolise this man or really feel he was extraordinary.... I had to get it out.

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#135116 - 10/30/04 03:16 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
mcgee Offline
Member

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 118
Loc: Lexington,NC USA
Yea, I really feel the same way. That’s all that Zen and Taoism talking. I happen to be a Zen Christen and can tell you that’s exactly how they talk/write.

It just seems that so many people don't get it. I thought maybe Using his words may help, probably not.

JKD IS NOT A STYLE. Sorry to yell but I’m frustrated. No technique is JKD, No group of techniques are JKD, No style is JKD.

What Bruce did (his techniques) was Jun Fan
that’s what he called it. JKD was the philosophy he used to develop that, it was on going, never ending, Techniques came and techniques went. When something was found to work better and in most cases was simpler that was added and the other faded away THATS JKD!

If Bruce could see he's original students still doing pretty much what he was doing this many years later he would flip out.

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