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#135099 - 09/22/04 05:20 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

I think we may have a different opinion on what sparring is!!
I consider a LIVE mini scenario to be a drill...for example....the attacker throws a flurry of punches (LIVE punches)....and the student needs to control some manner...[/QUOTE]

This is called sparring. When someone throws punches at you, unpredictable wild punches and YOU are forced to defend and/or counter then this is called sparring.

[QUOTE]Although this is live....I don't consider this to be sparring....especially because it ends up in some type of control.....not a continuous structure of trading blows...[/QUOTE]

Mate, I dont know your expeirence but buy the way you talk you OBVIOUSLY have never traded with or even tried to take a proficient ring fighter. Sport fighters do not necessarily want to trade blows. For example, my Kru in Thailand KO'd a man in 30 seconds because he had another 2 fights in teh same week and didnt want to be injured. The fact is this, unless you come against an incompetant man then you are more than likely gonna trade for a bit. Two skilled "experienced" fighters will more than likely trade blows inside or outside a ring.

[QUOTE]Yes I do spar on occasion (muay thai, kickboxing, boxing)and I can only really speak of my own experience...the pad work has definately improved my fighting skill (or ability to spar) without actually learning sparring (if that makes sense).....[/QUOTE]

How long have you been doing the pad work? Lemme explain something, not meaning to sound patronising, its great that you have learned that GOOD pad work is part fo what makes up good training but you are forgeting teh most important part of FIGHT training, this is sparring and actually being tested under extreme pressure, i.e. fighting. Fighting in a ring or not, it does NOT matter. You are expeirencing the effects a fight has onyour mentality and phyisiology. You expeirence everything even if your rules keep you to kicking and punching. Its this experience of the emotions and adrenalin dump which helps the student to become accustomed to the effects a fight has on your body. Without this experience you are simply guessing and hoping.

[QUOTE]But still there are limits...
I can visualise an opportunity for takedowns and a type of control....yet the "rules" that we are sparring by forbid me to do so....[/QUOTE]

Again you misunderstand the concept of fighting and sparring. When I spar in Muay Thai we tend do have long drawn out rounds, 5-10 rounds, basicly we have a rest inbetween to talk about things with each other, technique etc. We spar pretty fast but keep the contact to around 50-60% as the techniques in Muay Thai can injure you pretty fast. 50% strikes 50% clinch grappling, the grappling part we allow all takedowns and throws. The previous sunday I actually did some MMA NHB sparring with two guys from one of the MMA class, I love sparring with different people of different wieghts etc, I mean its great and really teaches me a lot about idividuals "ways" how they move their weight etc. My ground work is pretty basic, I can escape a gaurd and get the arm bar that the position you hold after escaping the gaurd (side mount is it?) allows for, I can jaw lock the opponent when I am in his gaurd (Naban Jawlock) and do a few other things like bite and defend against bite but as far as ground fighting goes I would say I am weak. But i do it nonethless because it (NHB - Muay Thai sparring) builds dynamic strength, sharp reflex and instinct, it helps to develop that very important "will" to win, the survival instinct that you need to win a fight. I am much lighter then the MMA guys but I am still doing it.

[QUOTE]It's the notion that some techniques are "forbiden" or "restricted" that is programmed into students that regularly spar that is part of the problem...[/QUOTE]

In a sense you're right but how do you train deadly techniques??? You cant so its always best to rely on whats proven and works.

[QUOTE]I believe that you fight the way you train...especially under the influence of an adrenal dump....[/QUOTE]

If you find that adrenal dump affects your ability during a fight then you are what "ring fighters" call, INEXPERIENCED!

[QUOTE]when your gross motor skills are can only rely on what comes naturally (muscle memory)...some people call this instinct....[/QUOTE]

Insinct for fighting doesnt come easily, developed through hard training (being pushed beyond your limits) and sparring then it is born through fighting.

[QUOTE]If the assailant has no concept of martial arts (generally, street thugs don't have the discipline to study martial arts)....they will have no concept of sparring...they will not agree to the rules.....[/QUOTE]

And do you think a ring fighter with a bit of fight experience is totally bound by the rules of a ring outside the ring? You are forgeting, most ring fighters have lives outside of fighting, the walk teh street and they usually tend to come from hard areas. This is a stupid arguement. I have countless BOXER (only using their fists) friends who have cleaned the pavemewnt with many thugs.

[QUOTE]they will have no concept of sparring[/QUOTE] Not only that but they will also have no concept of technical fighting, well tuned skills, accurate hitting, strong body and knwoledge of the grappling areas and striking withing grappling. Unless these guys are talented fighters (which there are gusy likethat without any formal training) they are doomed at the hands of a ring fighter. Street thugs tend to telegraph attacks, the swing wildly and dont know how to fight. A ring fighter, only a simply boxer, will have a field day with an incompetant street thug.... again this is generalising because you do get the occasional thug who can and knows exactly how to fight.

[QUOTE]they have no concept of stick and move....they are not honorable enough to avoid groin strikes (eyes, throat).....[/QUOTE]

stick and move happens because two fighters confront each other and know they are equally skilled. Groin strikes are not that easy to get off and throat strikes and eye strikles are equally as complicated unless in a dominant position, i.e. head neck tie for headbutt or underhook where you can bite.

[QUOTE]Sparring (specifically ring sparring)is not the only method of reality type training...[/QUOTE]

Its not reality training but it teaches you how to fight!! Reality training should be done in the same manner but without rounds and maybe one more person added into the mix. The differences between street fighting and sport fighting are small. The differences between sport fight training and street combat training seem to be very huge... who would you think has the edge in a street fight? would it be a pure combative street fighting student or would it be a proficient Thaifighter, MMA, or Boxer etc?

You have valid opinions but you are failing to recognise the importance of sparring and actually fighting, what us sport folks do. As I said before, there is a Silat class in our gym on saturday, I respect them totally and I actually believe Silat (when trained properlly) is useful but mate, I am not s**ting you... they wouldnt stand a chance against our most proficient ring fighters and thats even when all rules have been removed, not a chance!! In fact I am thinking about how aggressive and how strong some of the guys are then I think about the "street trained" students... mate I think the look on one of our fighters faces alone would be enough to scare them away!

#135100 - 09/22/04 06:33 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy

Hi guys

The form of Muay Thai that I studied is taught by the largest martial arts organization in Australasia....we have a singlet colour ranking system....we were one of the first to introduce this and many other clubs are starting to follow suit...
I train with the Chief Instructor who is a former WKA champion and title holder (among other things)....but enough about rank is recognised in this organisation only....

I think we actually agree with each other on many points...maybe the interpretation of the word "sparring" is a little different...

I will have to humbly bow out of this thread because I think we will never agree on certain points and niether of us will change our minds on the's been a good discusssion and I look forward to having many more with you guys....
Can we agree to disagree??

The Wolf

#135101 - 10/04/04 09:32 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy

Why does every thread end up in a conversation about Muay Thi kicks??
Or is this not the JKD forum?

#135102 - 10/04/04 09:56 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
Lethal Striker

I dont know you so cant really say what is what with you.

If you talk about fighting then obviously there will be a time when MMA, Muay Thai and Boxing are almost alwasy mentioned in the converstaion. Think about it, if you feel insecure or threatend by someone talking about something that is as effectvie as it is simple then you gotta get the gloves on and try it out, I mean not to disrespect you just trying to explain why Muay Thai, MMA, Boxing is almost always mentioned when "fighting" is spoken about.

A Muay Thai kick, whether I studied Muay Thai or not or whether you like to agree or not is undoubtably the most feared kick in the martial arts world... now wouldnt it be quite sensible to ask for evasive techniques or counters to a kick that is so feared... and LS, if you do not fear this kick then you havnt felt what it can do!

I am not an academically clever guy but I have something what most academically educateded folks dont have, generally speaking. It doesnt matter how eloquently you write, it doesnt matter how your grammar is, it really doesnt matter if you can read or write where fighting is concerned. This is the beauty of fighting, you can read and theorise about fighting, you can make everything you say sound great and you can even hold master degrees in science of the body etc but all this will not enable you to fight nor will it help you understand what its like to fight, there are fighters and then there are guys who study fighting arts but really have no clue as to what fighting is.

ok, off point just slightly.....

You see me talk about Muay Thai or fighting, why is that ask yourself? Well I can give you one answer, its because I know it works and I have tried it and I have tested it inside and outside of the ring. Anyone I know who also studies Thai fighting arts can give 100% marks for its effectiveness and simplicity... this is not the be all and end all but mate it works and that fact will remain until it fails to do what it was created for. Biased or not, my opinions will be gone when I die but the effectivness of Muay Thai will more than likely still be around and there will be plenty more firey men with the same passion I have for MT....

it works LS, thats a proven fact. EVERY standup art has consistantly been defeated with rules or without rules by Muay Thai fighters. Sanshou was inspired by Muay Thai just as filipino boxing was also inspired by Muay Thai... sorry I should correct that, Siamese fighting arts and Burmese fighting arts have consistantly defeated almost every other asian fighting art during conflict and sports tournements. Those are facts.

Thai kick is mentioned because Thai kick is hard and sore and it is a concern to some fighters who have felt what it can do. My advice is fight to feel what its like then criticise, until then assumptions and guesses mean nothing.

Now I know those comments will attract a lot of flack but its water of a ducks back.

#135103 - 10/04/04 12:16 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy

MT, I should of put a smiley face in my last post. It was more tongue and cheek than anything else.

Allthough that I have never felt a real MT kick I agree with you that it is the most feared kick, based on what I have read. Unfortunately tone is hard to establish on message boards, or at least it is for me.

When I question you or your MT it is because I am interested in learning. I love to learn, not just about sport fighting, or MA's about anything and everything.
Out of curiosity do you have a clip of any of you matches? Preferably one that you have won.

#135104 - 10/04/04 01:37 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
Lethal Striker

Mate, if anyone meets me in person they will soon realise that I am very easy going. Just excuse the grammar msitakes and my way of writing, I know it can be confusing sometimes as it does confuse me when I re read it! [IMG][/IMG]

#135105 - 10/04/04 10:48 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Actually for simple power I think the stepping side kick can weild more damage done. Not to discredit Muay Thai. Being a FORMER Muay Thai fighter let me ask you this: Can Muay Thai withstand such arts that train in Muay Thai, and other systems as well? Probably not. JKD utilizes Muay Thai but it takes it further by incorporating Boxing, Wing Chun, and grappling from not only the stand up position but the ground as well. Not to discredit Muay Thai, it is a good art, but knees and elbows and arcing kicks do little against an opponent determined to put you on your back in a grappling mindset. Personally I wouldnt take it as a core art but instead as a good basis to start my own art.

#135106 - 10/05/04 06:09 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
Chen Zen

Your opinoon is that the stepping side kick is stronger, thats cool, I have a different opinion, in fact in my last fight the guy I fought used a stepping side kick, get me some webspace and I will upload the exact part of the fight where he does his stepping side kick... to be honest, I fear a Thai roundkick more.

Muay Thai is basicly two 1/4's of what fighting is (Clinch/standup grappling and striking) the other 2 1/4's can be found in Pahuyuth, Krabi-Krabong, Bando, JuiJitsu or whatever else groundfighting and weapon art there is. Muay Thai is not a martial art it comes from a martial art. When you train in the Martial art of either Burma or Thailand then you really have no need to cross train, well in my opinion it can help by cross training in other fighting arts so as to learn how to defend against such arts but its not entirely necessary. Why should it be necessary to crosstrain when the martial art you train in is effective in all ranges of fighting??? (effective in all ranges, that is it is effective - it works) other than to know what you are fighting (know thy enemy) Maybe cross training is an opyion for those who dont have schools which teach such arts in their entirety... that is understandable. I would say argue with Randy Couture, ask him what he thinks of Burmese arts, ask Phil Dunlap what he things of Thai fighting arts, ask Tony More the same question... there ar emany MMA champions who have experienced and cross trained in such arts and are living proof that they work although these arts are not their base they ahve expeirenced them.

Muay Thai alone is VERY effective. When the practitioner of Muay Thai trains hard and uses the evasive and counter techniques which Muay Thai has to offer in order to evade or counter any technique from Muay Thai or similar attacks then you will see the beauty in Muay Thai.

Muay Thai is not a ground fighting sport, Muay Thai is not a martial art it is a sport which comes from a Martial Art... dude how many time must I repeat this??

I am very aware of the weakness of Muay Thai and I am very aware of the strengths of Muay Thai but I am also aware that what I train in is a sport taken from a martial art which is that bit more brutal and more combat ready... I am aware of that, I am also aware that any fight I have been in has been quickly stopped due to my skills in Muay Thai.

if what you want to talk about is fighting then thats what I am talking about, Muay Thai is fighting.

and so to keep it on topic, I think the philosophy of JKD is solid, its not new but its solid. I'll say from what I have experience in (that being Thai fighting and actually fighting) the philosophy of jkd can be seen in almost all performance sports.
JKD is a great way to categorise what was meant by its creator, Bruce did not create the already present concept of "binning whats not needed" but he did create JKD, the term used for describing the action of dispelling unusefull techniques... a bit like Matt Thorntons "Alive", its not new but he did come up with a way to describe the action of training in a productive and progressive resisiting way.

[This message has been edited by MuayThai (edited 10-05-2004).]

#135107 - 10/05/04 04:08 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy

According to John Little, author of the JKD series endorsed by the BL estate Bruce disbanned his schools and the physical art of JKD in 1971. JKD is a philosophy.

#135108 - 10/05/04 10:03 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Sure you can say that JKD is a philosophy but philosophy only? No. Although Bruce wished differently the JKD curriculum, including the Jun Fan curriculum is still being taught practiced and used in competitions worldwide. This very fact negates it being solely a philosophy.

Muay Thai, I meant not to discredit Muay Thai's abilities in creating solid fighters. However, being competent and being complete are not the same. I loved MT and still use some of it but the fact that you have to seek further instruction from an outside source to be competent on the ground show that Muay Thai isnt a complete art. It seems you have found something that you like and that has worked for you. Thats good just dont let it blind you to the fact that there are other things out there.

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