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#134993 - 08/15/04 07:56 PM Re: Total body equality in training.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
John,
I often wondered how come boxers didnt switch more, then I realize that they are trained like traditional MA, one sided. Also, as effective as it is, it is sport. Now look at Wing Chun, they move freely from one lead to the other. Of course this takes TIME, however, I feel its better to take the time to perfect it than not take the time and be half a fighter. Like you said John no one turns into a fighter overnight, so why rush it?

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#134994 - 08/15/04 08:15 PM Re: Total body equality in training.
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I've yet to see a Wing Chun fighter who could actually fight. I've yet to see a whole lot of actual sparring within the wing chun camps. I've rarely seen them spar outside of their own studios as well.

I HAVE seen a few spar against skilled punchers. It wasn't a pretty sight. There are definite reasons why I dropped the whole wing chun/Jun Fan curriculum. It all relates to sloppy mechanics.

When I actually SEE or experience a wing chun guy who can actually FIGHT, I'll change my mind.

Nothing against them (wing chun guys)personally mind you, but I have subscribed only to empiricism when training to fight and not theory.


-John

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#134995 - 08/15/04 09:47 PM Re: Total body equality in training.
Stampede Offline
Lord of the Kazoo

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 967
Loc: El Dorado, AR
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
Test EVERYTHING you've ever done or been told.[/QUOTE]

*wishes for a "Thumbs Up" smiley icon thingie*

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#134996 - 08/15/04 10:59 PM Re: Total body equality in training.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Some of William Cheungs students are very good. Quite good in fact. I used to spar regularly with one. The ideas behind the Wing Chun/Jun Fan curriculum are efeective, I think it just requires more from the teacher and from the practitioner. The Jun Fan curriculum is the hard version of JKD. It requires more "finesse". For instance, if you can do a pak sao and slip an attack it is very effective. Also very pretty. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#134997 - 08/16/04 10:58 AM Re: Total body equality in training.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Can someone explain in detail what a skilled lead would look like.

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#134998 - 08/16/04 06:23 PM Re: Total body equality in training.
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Some of William Cheungs students are very good. Quite good in fact. I used to spar regularly with one. The ideas behind the Wing Chun/Jun Fan curriculum are efeective, I think it just requires more from the teacher and from the practitioner. The Jun Fan curriculum is the hard version of JKD. It requires more "finesse". For instance, if you can do a pak sao and slip an attack it is very effective. Also very pretty. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Iím sure there are some wing chun guys who might offer a challenge, but Iíve simply not met any of them. Many of them adopt the same exact excuses that many martial artists of other styles use, namely; ďMy technique is too deadly to sparĒ.

What they are saying in a sense is, ďI canít beat you with rules, but without rules, Iíd be a dangerous opponentĒ. This isnít rational thinking. But itís what Iíve heard many times.

My mind is open to anyone who can prove themselves and their technique. It doesnít matter what style it is, or where on earth itís from. I value empiricism over theoretical postulations any day of the week. In other words, I like to be shown rather than told. Perhaps one day a wing chun practitioner (or from any art for that matter that tends to operate mostly in the theoretical realm) can show me his technique in such a way that Iíll believe it to be high percentage. When that day comes, Iíll take another look at those methods and maybe even embrace them.

Within my gym, I donít have any particular attachments to the curriculum. Our program is where it is today, because we base how we train only on one critical thing: empirical evidence. If someone can come in and perform his technique against resisting opponents, Iíll embrace it. Iíll become a student of anything, providing that it works and can be repeated against such resistance. This goes for any traditional/Eastern martial art. After all, who doesnít want high performance technique?!! I certainly do, and Iíll be the first person in line to learn it.


Good training all.


-John

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#134999 - 08/21/04 12:14 AM Re: Total body equality in training.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
Iím sure there are some wing chun guys who might offer a challenge, but Iíve simply not met any of them. Many of them adopt the same exact excuses that many martial artists of other styles use, namely; ďMy technique is too deadly to sparĒ.

What they are saying in a sense is, ďI canít beat you with rules, but without rules, Iíd be a dangerous opponentĒ. This isnít rational thinking. But itís what Iíve heard many times.

My mind is open to anyone who can prove themselves and their technique. It doesnít matter what style it is, or where on earth itís from. I value empiricism over theoretical postulations any day of the week. In other words, I like to be shown rather than told. Perhaps one day a wing chun practitioner (or from any art for that matter that tends to operate mostly in the theoretical realm) can show me his technique in such a way that Iíll believe it to be high percentage. When that day comes, Iíll take another look at those methods and maybe even embrace them.

Within my gym, I donít have any particular attachments to the curriculum. Our program is where it is today, because we base how we train only on one critical thing: empirical evidence. If someone can come in and perform his technique against resisting opponents, Iíll embrace it. Iíll become a student of anything, providing that it works and can be repeated against such resistance. This goes for any traditional/Eastern martial art. After all, who doesnít want high performance technique?!! I certainly do, and Iíll be the first person in line to learn it.


Good training all.


-John
[/QUOTE]

I can understand feeling limited by rules, however, that should never keep you from sparring and testing your technique. I too have run across this same attitude from others before. Maybe Ill make it north again one day and give you first hand experience with it. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif[/IMG]

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#135000 - 09/29/04 01:05 AM Re: Total body equality in training.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Although I have never taken any formal classes beyond some Kempo as a 10 year old, I am no stranger to fighting and have ALWAYS been fascinated with fighting techniques.

There was a story of a great fighter who was traditionally a one handed fighter who could deliver powerful blows and take quite a beating but still lost to the champ. After some time away he trained his other arm to become slightly below equally effective as his other arm and defeated the champ in there second meeting.

Haha...although this story is from Rocky I and II , it does prove true.

In my novice opinion I would say that becoming fully developed with one lead is, purhaps, a FASTER way to reach the level of an effective street brawler, because you do have technique and experience (I hope) over the Average street fighters lone experience.

However I believe that if you were on the quest of champions the most effective and valuable way to do so is by training both sides. Of course this would take close to Double the amount of time to develop both sides equally however you would also be , in my opinion, AT THE LEAST 2.5 x as effective as a figher. For example, look at the fighting style of Klitzkove ( spelling? ) The heavy one handed boxer that lost to CHAMPION Lenox Lewis who incorporates both hands into his style far more than his opponent.

Once again I am a novice and these stories are of Boxers however I feel the examples are perfectly valid.

[This message has been edited by Polyrhythmic Soul (edited 09-29-2004).]

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