[QUOTE]Originally posted by liquidthoughtz:
25 years on and Bushido advertises as a Samurai school formed in 1973. A closed door sect of Zen and martial arts teachers. I think that being part of something special makes you feel special, unique and different to everyone else. This feeling is probably what brings a Bushido student to the assumption that they are in a higher caste.
Of course Zen brings you to liberation not a life of control and conditioning.
....
The truth is I enjoyed and value what i was taught, i think that the way that some of the instructors teach is exceptional, but it is difficult to pass the skills of integrity and respect for self and others without controlling people in the process.[/QUOTE]

I would just like to reiterate this post because it resonates with me, in what i feel about the whole thing... Thankyou liquidthoughtz for you invaluable help and ALL other posters. It has been an experience!

[This message has been edited by Adonai (edited 11-03-2004).]

Bushido a religion - get real!!

If you don't have the strength of mind to realise that the whole point of the zen involved is simply to inspire thoughts and ideas of your own then that is your loss.

Its not about indoctrination/brainwashing/cult-wierdness or any other such hogwash!

And by the way, whoever it was who asked how high I can kick - the answer is probably higher than you....

Hello. I'm new to this discussion board. I come from a Karate background (grew up with Martial Arts), and have moved to Bushido only recently. I tried to find some info online about BAMA and this discussion thread came up. After having read most of what's been said here, I'm very interested as to WHY this information is being talked about.

If I went to find information about Karate, or Aikido, or Ninjitsu, etc, would I stumble across many threads with people happily putting down its Way?

So for me, I am trying to class whether these threads are in fact jutified, and there is real reason for concern; or am I just reading another thread of information where people just don't like something.

Go anywhere and you'll find people who love something, and hate something, etc...

I don't believe in knocking something til you've tried it; and when i say "try", I don't mean just a 1hour lesson, too hard, bah, its rubbish. I mean TRY as in DO and train for months if not years. You will never know everything there is to know about anything, but you can reach a point of good understanding

The samurai were wiped clean (pretty much). It's only speculative whether some survived and continued training. Therefore it *is* possible that BAMA are directly linked to the Way.

If they are not, is this a problem? The licence quotes: "The BAMA governing body was formed in 1979 to protect and indeed increase the standard of Martial Arts Instructors in the Western World"

A Martial Art brought about to honour and uphold the Eastern Values and ways of life, in our seemly dead western world. Can we honestly say many people have Honour in this world?

To the non-martial artist, Bushido teaches you "how to kick ass". To the martial artist, we know that it is far more than "kicking ass". Fighting is but a small part of the Martial Way. It is a way of life. It a journey to find yourself, not find the other persons death certificate.

Being able to find yourself and to know yourself, to know your body, will make other things start happening. For example, you know your own body, then you understand other people's bodies. You understand about leverage, about centre of gravity, about how to manipulate the centre of gravity and how to therefore move someone else inthe way you want. In effect - protect yourself if the need may arise.

Martial Arts are not about going and picking fights. We all know that, correct? It's about a way of life...

Anyway, I think I've drifted from the original point quite a lot. In conclusion, there are more bits of information I want to find out about - Lineage, history, reasons, etc. Whether the BAMA are just a Financial Market of trying to get whatever they can from someone (like many self-defence classes are now growing like mushrooms exploiting peoples' fear). Do they honestly uphold the tru way of the Samurai: Bushido? I doubt it, if all they are doing is trying to get money from you. But what if all they are trying to do is teach what they have been taught, or learn as much as they can to honestly follow what anyone actually knows about the true Way from Japan?

I personally believe it to be the latter, but I am open-minded and very aware. So hopefully I won't be proved wrong in the future.

- Zanshin
ps - please excuse any typos. I didn't realise I wouldn't have time to re-read this post after I wrote it.

**Apologies for the long post, as I started typing I realsied I had more to say than I thought!**

I've been following this thread with interest for several weeks now, I'm an ex-student and franchisee of the BAMA, spent nearly 6 years with them.

The accounts of the schools "history" from the likes of Adonai, Black-Mask and LuiquidThoughtz are near word for word the things I remember being told, I spent considerable time trying to research this myself and drew blanks everywhere. Yorotoma Hill, Master Usaka, the samurai Ginshi Kasawa (who, I'm told, was the samurai who originally started the school many hundreds of years ago), no Japanese historians, websites or books contained any reference to these people and places. I found the jade-warrior album cover which was identical to the organisations badge but that just raised more questions than it answered!

BTW - to whoever posted the Samurai family crests URL asking which was used by the BAMA - I saw a flag with the "Bessho" crest flying a seminars towards the end of my time with them.

There seems to be a common thread in the information here from those who have been involved with the BAMA and reached a reasonably high grade... the quality of training and the life experiances we've drawn from the organisation are excellent, but there's a disconcerting undercurrent of control and commercialisation that has become more and more obvious in recent years.

I was one of the first wave of students who trained under the 1 on 1 franchise scheme and my sensei changed my life, I found new confidence, skill and love of life through the physical and philosophical lessons I learned. He was having an amazing time too, quality advanced lessons from Delane Academy and now the franchise had enabled him to quit his job and work full time doing what he loved - teaching martial arts. Gradings were hard, fees seemed reasonable for 1 on 1, I felt I was getting value for money. But as time moved on I began to feel a growing conflict between the published literature ("a style without politics, a Zen without indoctrination") and the reality. While many of the Zen lessons worked well for me and gave me insight into my self and the world in which I found my self it was clear that there was huge amounts of indocrination going on (the "unpayable debt" concept is just one example). I've always been curious about psychology and had started to read about NLP and found myself wondering if this was part of the technique Pete Delane was using to appear to have near telepathic and super human abilities. It's certainly impressive and awe inspiring ... but so is Derran Brown and he's the first to tell you what he does is very clever trickery and mentalist technique.

My black belt grading was without doubt the hardest thing I have ever done in my life - I earned that like nothing else I have ever achieved, around this time I was spending upto 20 hours a week in the dojo training and assisting with teaching, many, many hours we free, I still felt I had value for money. I was attending 2 - 4 weekend courses per year at £150 a time, and still I was happy with this, the training was superb.

I had trained under Pete Delane at seminars, had him appear on weekend courses - and his martial arts were superb, no-one else in the school could touch him, I felt recharged after spending time with him, his lessons did open my eyes, but so much of the control the school exterts on its students seemed to come from fear and that rang warning bells. My instuctor started to confide his concerns in me, the pressures they were under to push through new black belts to grow the school, the fact that when he was concerned about financial issues he was being un-zenish and needed to exorsise his personal demons, but that when Pete Delane was thinking about money it was him nurturing Pete Delane "the business man" .... So my instructor left. He'd invested much of his life in the school, in the business model and an intelligent and honorable man did so willingly becasue of all the growth and enjoyment he got from it, but something changed.

I took on a franchise at this time, teaching 3 or 4 nights a week, trying to maintain the level of training I had enjoyed under my instructor. I loved the game, enjoyed the growth teaching gave me but since my move to the Academy sessions my own training had stalled - promises of great new things to come, the new techniques we would learn never really materialised for me - I had learned more advanced techniques as a brown belt under my own sensei. A few more black belts left, and one of the final things for me was that lies started emerging about those that had left. I was still in contact with many and knew full well that what was being said to explain their departures was simply not true.

I left after much soul searching - this was the school, the people, the style that had changed my life - I felt a debt to them and my students, but the feeling of relief in me as soon as I made the decission told me I had got it right. The pressures are way too high once you start to advance up the grades, you're either in or out, subscribe 100% to their view or you won't progress. The men moving forward stopped being the most talented and instead sicophant yes men made the most progress.

I still miss the training in the early days, the people, the Zen - it recharged me and taught me much about the world, but it seemed clear to me it was no-longer about that below the surface, but about multi-level marketing (not illegal of course, but well known only to make the man at the top rich at the expense of everyone else!) and control.

If you are still training with the BAMA I hope you are blessed with as good an instructor as I had, enjoy your training and grow but the business side of the organisation does not, in my opinion, match up to the level of martial arts you've been enjoying.

I've avoided commenting on this thread for a long time, not wanting to speak out of place or disrespect something that gave me so much, but I have come to realise something *is* wrong and no matter how high the quality of training that many lower grades have posted about here on this forum, if one is being manipulated it's simply not right.


[This message has been edited by Mister_A (edited 11-17-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Mister_A (edited 11-17-2004).]

I was pointed this way by a recent 'poster' on this forum - someone with whom i trained for many years & have the greatest respect.

There is no doubt that the upper echelons of the BAMA are now aware of this forum - Good. The actual likelihood of receiving an honest & straightforward answer from them is - ZERO. All Bushido members are given only the vaguest hints of 'THE TRUE HISTORY OF THE SCHOOL' throughout their months & years of training. Not wishing to be overly cynical but, if you know what you're looking for, you can tell what grade many of the previous posters have acheived in the BAMA by a. their knowledge of / defensivness towards 'the history' and b. their attitude towards the school itself. I have very similar experiences to MisterA, Adonai, Movedon et al.

IMHO Bushido WAS an amazing place to train & grow. BUT, and it is a big but, the school has grown and changed beyond all recognition.

Bushido's 'Samurai History' is myth. Layer on layer of carefully crafted ( and uncheckable ) history, combined with an over-riding climate of control and indoctrination equals a very 'cultish' organization - and one that gets even more so at higher levels. You can witness the evidence of this even in these posts. Even several years after leaving, ex students & Sens are reluctant to speak out. 'Spiderhands' posts earlier in this thread were classic examples.

I would welcome ANY message from ANY current Bushido members regarding how the story is being 'modified' to encompass revelations on this and other forums. One of the earlier posters intimated that the 'Samurai' history was now being played down ?.

Ok - I thought this might take a while but this has brought up things i thought were done & dusted.

The facts....

Pete Delane started British Bushido Karate as a break away from Jon Alexander's Zen Shin Ryu in 1979.

BAMA as we know it was formed in 1990.

He was also an accomplished musician & has been known by at least 1 other name.

The 'historic' Samurai Warrior badge as used by the BAMA is actually from the cover of the 'Elements' album by a band called 'Jade Warrior'. So if you current BAMA students want to know how 'authentic' it is check out :
http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior/

btw.... If you have seen the footage of Pete Delanes 7th dan 'grading' from the early eighties you will recognize that 'Tony Duhig' ( 2nd left in piccie on above link ) is none other than Pete Delane himself. Tony Duhig apparantly died in 1990 from heart failure... curioser & curioser ;-)

He called himself 'Master Shudin' until 98/99 when after a 'secret ceremony' his dead master (?!) who had left a letter ' to be opened 15 yrs after his death ' granted him the title of 'Master Chusan' hmmm. So thats 4 names then ?...

Pete Delane is also fond of awarding Japanese titles to those he considers 'retainers' - one name has already been given on this forum. 'Master Shugosen' is Mr Murray Bruton from Gloucester. There are also - Hombusen, Sentosen, Kensunisan and Nagawasan. I sorely doubt these names mean anything outside the hallowed walls of the BAMA.

This organization has now grown to the size where the MA world at large is aware of them. I'm not sure if this forum is a way of alerting others to the issues addressed here - or a self help group for those who need it - past & present members included.

Once again i'm sure this post will raise as many questions as it answers.

Pete Delane is probably the most charismatic individual i have ever met, closer to an evangelist that martial artist and he is the first to tell you that others will call him a con man - a very good defence, however is does not mean the accusation is not true!.

I did not realize how similar other MA schools were to Bushido. You are ALWAYS told Bushido is the only true 'way' and are indoctrinated never to question this.

Now look at the money the organization is generating. The lesson fee is generally paid direct to the Sensei. However if you count Franchise Fees, Delane Academy Fees, Seminars, Gradings & weekend courses Mr Delane, as a CONSERVATIVE estimate, is currently collecting in the region of £150-£170,000 per annum. From this Mr Bruton is paid in the region of £50,000.

So - Samurai School or Cash Cow ?...

I know this is one sided - but if the other side won't give the info asked for?...

I sincerely look forward to responses from current & ex BAMA members...

With respect.

Reading this thread is very interesting. The post by Firestarter is good.

I used to train with the BAMA and at the time I enjoyed it, although it did give me an inflated ego, I thought I was the best, everyone outside the BAMA were inferior. This is the type of mind set they put you into.

I can't believe the artwork is from an album cover. We were told that it was specially designed for the BAMA and was copyrighted and stuff.

Being an ex student (and when i left i was a very high grade), In my opinion Pete Delane is basically a con man on one big ego trip. I can remember standing for 3 sometimes 4 or 5 hours while he spoke some Mystical Zen stuff that was basically crap. All this was done when we were supposed to be training. He would just turn up and we all had to bow and not move while he spoke and then pay for the privilidge...

I was lucky in the fact I had a good instructor when I was there. I enjoyed my lessons and worked hard but in the end I saw it for what it was. Just a money making scheme and an ego trip for Pete.

The Bushido experience week-ends were a joke and then they introduced "Hell Week-ends" where for £150 you could study all week-end and then grade for your next belt on the sunday.... I think everyone passed who paid their money... It meant that you could grade quicker than usual.. A bit of a contradiction to something I was told and read about Pete wanting to stop people rushing through grading systems and kids being made black belts.

I questioned some things when i was there (always being careful how to word it), but the answers always just made me question it more.

I can remember being injured during one session and having to carry on, as "Thats what a samurai would have to do".

My whole personality and attidute changed when I left the BAMA, I became less of an "ar**hole" (my girlfriends exact words).

I am now enjoying training in a new style. I still pick up my sword now and again and still run thorough my old BAMA Katas but just for old times sake really, i use them for aerobic excercise more that technique.

To anyone who is currently training with them then I hope this thread has opened your eyes abit. There are some good instructors there who believe in what they are doing. if your sensi is one of them then you will have a good time. Just be wary of Pete Delane his philosophy and don't think that the BAMA is the "Best of the Best".

I guess if I'm being honest part of me admires Pete for being able to build a business doing what he does. He's getting money for nothing. He even gets the higher grades to do work around his (rather large) house. As far as I can remember, his swimming pool was dug by the Instructors.


On a final note.. I am sure the ex-students can imagine the comments that the Instructors will say to any current students if they make a comment about this thread.

If anyone wants to email me then feel free.....

Hi Folks - just realized my email wasn't visible. (Classic ex Bushido Paranoia!) If anyone wants to drop me a line regarding this forum please feel free.

used to train with these lot too- and i agree totally. really miss the training though- do you know of another school or teacher you could recommend? many thanx.

Interesting to hear of more similar experiances, I have no doubt many of us have trained together in the past, I was on some of the weekends Dim_Ma mentioned.

FireStarter - I think your financial estimates are indeed very conservative, but as others have said, I'm not really here to question the money.

Dim_Mak - would be interested in emailing but you haven't left an email address ...

Anyone who would like to get in touch from the "old days" please feel free.

Course prices....

I received Geoff Thomson's newsletter last week. He is advertising a day's course (running from 10am-4pm) in December for £60.

From previous posts, the BAMA courses are £150 and last for a whole weekend.

Comparable prices I think...

People are saying the BAMA are ripping you off? Is Geoff Thomson ripping people off too?
I don't think so. I'm sure you don't either.

Everyone is aware of Geoff Thomson's Martial Arts ability because of his publicity. (I wouldn't mind doing one of his courses and meeting the man!)

Lesson prices...

BAMA £15 an hour (private)
Other schools £2.50-£5.00 an hour (in a class)

If you are in a private lesson, the insructor is focusing his attention solely on you. Errors that you make will be picked up immediately. You can work at your pace. You can work on the things you want/need to work on. How fast are you going to improve?

In a class-based lesson, the instructor has to talk to the class. Errors may not be picked up for weeks/months. You work at the pace of the slowest. You have to work on the things the class or the instructor wants/needs to work on. How fast are you going to improve?

Are the BAMA ripping you off? I don't think so...