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#134457 - 02/27/05 04:12 PM Re: Controlling your Students Behavior
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by eyrie:
Shonuff,

I take your point, but I don't think that it is about sanctioning or elevating a teacher above their students, whether or not that teacher has the appropriate moral rectitude.

I can therefore appreciate your reservations about mentoring someone without first being requested of it. However, mentoring is sometimes necessary where the person in question isn't even aware that they require it...
[/QUOTE]

And this is my problem, the moment we take it upon ourselves to decide that someone else is in need of guidance we are taking on a position of moral superiority. If we have developed a bond with the person in question then thats a different matter, intervening with friends and family is something that is often expected as well as necessary, however such a bond takes time to develop. I dont believe its an automatic right of an MA teacher to assume that role just because someone trains in his class.

[QUOTE]
Perhaps it is easier to point to a code of conduct, in such instances, to maintain a sort of professional distance - which in some cases is not such a bad thing. Or can we not rely on good old fashioned human decency - treat others as you would have them treat you, because our moral compass is questionable?
[/QUOTE]

Again this is my point. For the idea of the teacher as mentor to work it requires one BIG assumption. The assumption that the teacher is a good old-fashioned comonly decent person. The assumption that even if its meant in the best intentions that he/she will impart good advice and not a load of crap which when taken to heart will do more harm than good.

When someone goes to see a counselor, very often the counselor does not give advice, to do so takes away the persons responsibility in solving their own problems. The very concept of a martial arts teacher giving out advice goes against the conventional wisdom of the genuine problem solvers out there and again what qualifies them to do this? A 5th dan in karate???

[QUOTE]
In which case, whose moral compass guided the development of that code of conduct, by which all and sundry must adhere to?
[/QUOTE]

Now that is a good point (one which I'd hoped you would miss [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] ). Its partly for that reason that I conceded that Sensei lou's description of things (the train) might be a better description than a simple service provider. To some degree the teacher/head of school will have to lay down his view of things unless the class simply has no rules (inadvisable).
However, its one thing to set down a code of conduct specifically for the mutual benefit of the students that all must adhere to (with no moral basis beyond what allows us to best get on with each other), and another for the teacher to feel it is his/her right to tell someone else how he/she should live or what kind of attitude he/she should have.
Its another thing for students to be subjected to and judged on the teachers idea of morals. You might disagree that any judging would go on, but when moralistic ideas are brought in to a situation judging is inevitable. A cold set of rules to me is blind justice, the moral interpretations (path of Budo?) of the teacher as to what kind of person a student should be is easily coloured, and if the teacher actively pushes his view (even if just through kindly but unsolicited words of advice) on the student, I feel it is inapropriate and potentially harmful.

[QUOTE]
Good debate.
[/QUOTE]

Indeed [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]!

- Shogun of London

[This message has been edited by Shonuff (edited 02-27-2005).]

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#134458 - 02/27/05 07:14 PM Re: Controlling your Students Behavior
Anonymous
Unregistered


Shogun of London?

I thought it was Shogun of Harlem??? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shonuff:
... I dont believe its an automatic right of an MA teacher to assume that role just because someone trains in his class...
[/QUOTE]

Nor do I. Obviously some sort of bond (familial or otherwise) is pre-requisite. It would otherwise be inappropriate to pre-suppose or assume the moral right to do so. I think this was what I was trying to say all along, just that it didn't quite come out as clearly as how you put it.

[QUOTE]...
The very concept of a martial arts teacher giving out advice goes against the conventional wisdom of the genuine problem solvers out there and again what qualifies them to do this?....[/QUOTE]

A very good point indeed. However, giving advice outright, is very different to (subtly!) influencing a person's perspective, or just simply telling it as it is, as in your previous example with arrogant student.

The example you give of a counselor is probably more appropriate in any given circumstance. I definitely agree. To "counsel", rather than "advise".

[QUOTE]...
A cold set of rules to me is blind justice, the moral interpretations (path of Budo?) of the teacher as to what kind of person a student should be is easily coloured, and if the teacher actively pushes his view (even if just through kindly but unsolicited words of advice) on the student, I feel it is inapropriate and potentially harmful...
[/QUOTE]

Yes, it is a fine line. I can see your point for moralistic detachment and deferrment to a code of conduct. However, I am not suggesting a active imposition of the teacher's world view on the student. I was referring more to the use of strategy, and subtlety in verbal communications, not unlike what we would use in military or martial strategy, just at a different level. Of course, it doesn't hurt to also point them in the direction of any number of interpretations of codes of conduct and hope they identify with the underlying message you are trying to convey. After all, it is not what you say, but how you say it.

[QUOTE]...
Now that is a good point (one which I'd hoped you would miss [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] )
[/QUOTE]

It has certainly been worthwhile exploring the parameters of this topic, and I wouldn't be a worthy adversary if I didn't pick you up on that. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

I immensely enjoyed the verbal sparring...and thank you for your perspective! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#134459 - 02/27/05 07:21 PM Re: Controlling your Students Behavior
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Did you re-imburse your students for the lesson they missed?

This question was posed when I talked about cancelling class and taking my students to the hospital to check on another student. The answer to the question is Hell No.

I feel I give my students 10 fold for what they pay. I don't do it for money and money has never been a issue for me. I had one student train for 2 years and did not pay a cent. If my students couldn't take a hour away from training to check on a fellow student, they can leave. I have a family environment and part of our Family art is to treat one another like family. The notion to give them a refund for doing something for another student apalls me. If that is they way of most dojo, if they feel its only about money for training, I want no part of it.

But I have found this post really interesting and I am following up with another thread. But basically, what I have seen here is a no win situation for a Sensei. You get a Sensei who just teaches marterial, teaches you for money and he gets the rap of owning a McDojo, money for training and not caring. Then when a Sensei really cares and gets involved with other parts of the art, and tries to help his students on a personal level, he is cult like or he is too involved in the student. People argue they don't want someone to lead and nuture them, and then when a Instructor gives bare bones training, he has a McDojo, and is a McSensei. You can't have it both ways. Its really interesting the quotes about cult like and a Sensei just teaching and not preaching, seems really funny when other times a Sensei is tagged as not caring. Its a no win situation. The populace is just as bad. They want nothing to do with Martial Arts, too violent until their son gets pulverized by the bully, then we are great people and a strong influence to their kids, thats ok, but being too involved and viewed as taking over their kids isn't. How does one win? See the next thread.

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#134460 - 02/27/05 08:56 PM Re: Controlling your Students Behavior
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:

I feel I give my students 10 fold for what they pay. I don't do it for money and money has never been a issue for me. I had one student train for 2 years and did not pay a cent. If my students couldn't take a hour away from training to check on a fellow student, they can leave. I have a family environment and part of our Family art is to treat one another like family. The notion to give them a refund for doing something for another student apalls me. If that is they way of most dojo, if they feel its only about money for training, I want no part of it.
[/QUOTE]

I don't want to go too deeply into this as I don't see a need to make this debate personal, I will simply say that I do understand your point but I disagree.


[QUOTE]
But I have found this post really interesting and I am following up with another thread. But basically, what I have seen here is a no win situation for a Sensei. You get a Sensei who just teaches marterial, teaches you for money and he gets the rap of owning a McDojo, money for training and not caring.
[/QUOTE]

Personally I had always understood a McDojo to be a place that gave substandard training and elevated students in rank regardless of ability for the sake of getting paid? I have encountered very very few teachers who can afford to teach without re-imbursement and none who are criticised for it.

[QUOTE]
Then when a Sensei really cares and gets involved with other parts of the art, and tries to help his students on a personal level, he is cult like or he is too involved in the student.
[/QUOTE]

If that was said in response to my words then they have been misunderstood. I would ask if you believe that Martial cults or over involved teachers exist or not?

[QUOTE]
People argue they don't want someone to lead and nuture them, and then when a Instructor gives bare bones training, he has a McDojo, and is a McSensei. You can't have it both ways.
[/QUOTE]

Why not. Why can an MA teacher not be a friendly and social while maintaining a proffessional distance from the students. It seems a fairly simple matter of establishing some boundries regarding how involved one gets. Also those people who complain about over-involvement and then call an uninvolved teacher a McSensei should be asked precisely where they want the line drawn.

[QUOTE]
Its really interesting the quotes about "cult like" and a Sensei just teaching and not preaching, seems really funny when other times a Sensei is tagged as not caring.
[/QUOTE]

Like most things in life I feel its a question of balance. Asking "how are you doing", or "is everything ok" lets people know a teahcer cares and opens the door for them to seek help. On the other hand they can just as easily politely brush off the extended hand without fear of offending. If they dont wan to talk, they dont and everyone can get on with their lives and lessons without fear of intrusion.

As far as MA classes becoming cult like, I've seen it, its not pretty. That is a case of a total imbalance, the instructor has become elevated beyond the level of an equal and is to be obeyed for fear of reprisal. Fear and guilt in my mind have no place in a martial arts school. As I said, not everyone is a good person with the students best interests at heart.

[QUOTE]
Its a no win situation. The populace is just as bad. They want nothing to do with Martial Arts, too violent until their son gets pulverized by the bully, then we are great people and a strong influence to their kids, thats ok, but being too involved and viewed as taking over their kids isn't. How does one win?
[/QUOTE]

As above, balance is the key.

Of course that is just one opinion.

Eyrie..
It is Shogun of Harlem... but Im not from Harlem [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

- Shogun of London

[This message has been edited by Shonuff (edited 02-27-2005).]

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#134461 - 02/28/05 09:06 AM Re: Controlling your Students Behavior
Anonymous
Unregistered


As for the father/mother/brother role, I looked to my instructor for advise on life, martial arts etc...So I looked up to him like an uncle/ older brother. I too allready had a father who taught me many of lifes lesson's. After years of training with an instructor, you gain a bond, a friend ship. I would die for my instructor/s and fellow students of my school as I would die & lay down my life for my own family.

New students who come to my school, I am just an instructor and thats it. They are nothing more than a new face who will probally not return. I am their for what ever purposes they may have, to defend one self , to get in shape etc... I feel they have walked in for a reason, if they stay then it is ment to be, if they leave then it is ment to be. My door swings both ways as well and it's something I allways say.

My concern's are for the ones who show up. If students dont show up I'll call them see how things are. Time is valuable and if students are not going to show up, Then I tell them to leave, I have done it in the past and will continue to do it today. The Art's are to valuable for me to just let people come and go and be half a$$ Wanna be Martial Artist. Thats what the mcdojo's are for.

I dont push my self as a replacement for father figure type senerio. But like Senseilou said I would be their for a shoulder to cry on, some one to talk to on and off the mat, help students in anyway possible, mentaly, physicaly, financialy, anything I can do thats do_able. Some of the best lessons I have learned were off the mat.

But I do not change my ways for anybody. The Art will lead to all truths, And I will teach the traditions, & codes of MA.
After years of training the bond and friendships grow and bloom to what should be something beutiful between instructor and student, student to student etc... Students who train for years become family. My fellow class mates that trained with me through ranks & years, we have a bond together, they are like my brothers & sisters.

So yeah as Instructors I strongly believe that we put lesson's and mind sets to our students so that they make the right decisions and their behavior's are the same in and out of the school.
If I didnt want to concern my self with my students I would be just a coach, just be a mechanic with the arts, stop running through belt systems, instruct cardio work outs take peoples money and be their employee, do not concern myself with their problems, worry about their progress of the arts have no concern for their outcome in life then I would be their employee, wich I am not. & what I say goes, If they dont like then their's the door.

It is easier to point and command rather than give the helping hand. Your right we need to lead by example, practice what we preach.
I am not perfect either but, I put my heart and soul into my teachings. So A student that disrespects or is out of line in or out of the school, their behavior is out of proper character for learning MA and disobeying codes. I will tell them to leave. This is how I can somewhat control the behavior and keep a good name for the school .


[This message has been edited by Ajacks (edited 02-28-2005).]

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#134462 - 02/28/05 09:42 AM Re: Controlling your Students Behavior
Anonymous
Unregistered


MA is not fighting, it's a way of living. With this comes an understanding of discipline and respect. The best techniques I've seen preformed are done with self control, confidence and respect for your opponent. Having a big ego makes accepting that there are people better than you are difficult and is a barrier to improving yourself. All students of MA at any level should respect all other students of MA.
(Also the best masters keep learning even after they are considered masters)

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#134463 - 03/07/05 07:29 AM Re: Controlling your Students Behavior
Anonymous
Unregistered


all i can say is that the best form of controlling them is discipline. Smack them on the ass or get them with the cane!

this can be also be called as a beating.

Your Reguards,

Mr. T.

(The A Team: JOIN US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

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#134464 - 03/07/05 06:04 PM Re: Controlling your Students Behavior
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The A Team:
all i can say is that the best form of controlling them is discipline. Smack them on the ass or get them with the cane!

this can be also be called as a beating.

Your Reguards,

Mr. T.

(The A Team: JOIN US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
[/QUOTE]

REALLY? Last time I checked, this was against the law, and you would be up for assault and battery.

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#134465 - 05/11/05 02:06 AM Re: Controlling your Students Behavior [Re: senseilou]
wbbfan Offline
Member

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 31
Loc: southern manitoba, canada
I taught for a short time in a small class filled with children. I nearly lost my mind. You have to sttempt to change tehre attitude. You are a teacher. No different from a school teacher. Attitude is a major part of MAs. Your teaching some dangerous techniques and must be sure you do your best to help your students to be as responsible as possible. The MAs are more mental then physical. The physical techniques are mostly ment to build mental strength too.
There is how ever, a point at which you can not cross with attitude. If a student refuses to behave, and no punishment seems to help you have to do one of two things.
Talk to there parents. Get them to do some thing and make it clear that MAs is NOT baby sitting. Many parnets seem to get the two confused. If it still continues, you may have to remove the student from your classes. Either for a period of tiem or permenently. After all you can't let one bad student hurt the experience for teh rest of the good students.
You must try to make poorly behaved students act better. But after a certain point you can not do any more.
_________________________
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most."

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#134466 - 05/15/05 10:43 PM Re: Controlling your Students Behavior [Re: wbbfan]
rockleewannabe Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 41
Loc: Canada
I'm young, I'm only 18, and when I was just starting high school I had only a few friends, barely any at all, 1-2

I went to this place, a teen center, lunches and after school, being grade 8, the highest grade being grade 12, and being incredibly egotistical and annoying, I got picked on a lot, but I had belief's that people are equal and shouldn't be treated harshly because of inferiority


anyways, the transition I won't talk about, but from grade 10ish-12, I started to become a prominent figure in that place, I disdained being an authority figure, too wild for that

but what I learned is, that a GOOD instructor will teach both aspects, technical and mental, they will not put emphasis on any of it, but they will teach accordingly to whoever lacks it

I have skill in martial arts and training, and a fair bit in school fights, but in the teen center, it was super smash that people played the most

I'd teach people the skills required to do decently, and I would almost always be playing, as only 4 can do this at a time, the losers would usually end up giving up the controller since there would be up to 12 people wanting to play


note that this game is for fun, and it's not super important that you lose, but fairly important

if someone was being cheap, and toatlly picking on a really new person, I would take them out of the game first, no questions asked, or I'd tell them not to attack them again, and then I'd tell the new person some controls so they could do a little better

in this sense I've satisfied both conditions, technicalities and spirituality/mentality

but the best instructor is a good leader, someone his inferiors respect and know that if it went down to the wire, they couldn't beat him

to show great self discipline, honourable morals, and truth of self, as well as skill, strength and ferocity is how you will "control" people well

to TEACH them to be good like you are, requires understanding, patience, compassion and determination

control refers to someone forcing someone else to do something, rather influence them to do things using you're own greatness as a slight shove, and make no threats other then those that are relevant, some people will say they have, but they are just playing mind games to make others think they are in the right

this is the basic leadership principle, which is what an instructor of ANY kind should have at least a small amount of experience in
_________________________
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