FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 20 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
sunny, swordy, jerrybarry24, SenseiGregT, sagat
22914 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Ed_Morris 4
futsaowingchun 3
ergees 2
Zombie Zero 2
AndyLA 2
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
New Topics
STX Kickboxing Seminar
by Marcus Charles
09/09/14 06:57 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
mindfullness meditation
by
01/06/09 11:27 AM
Recent Posts
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Zombie Zero
Today at 04:43 PM
Eugue Ryu
by kolslaw
09/12/14 03:35 PM
attacked from behind
by AndyLA
09/07/14 07:01 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
09/02/14 06:26 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
mindfullness meditation
by log1call
08/31/14 09:43 PM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
The Karate punch
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:27 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
Forum Stats
22914 Members
36 Forums
35575 Topics
432492 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#134447 - 02/25/05 09:41 PM Re: Controlling your Students Behavior
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I am not really going to get into my feelings on this, as I was trying to elicit others opinions. But I don't agree with the statement that I am an employee to my adults. Anything but. I have said this before, but I am a train, if you want to work on the train, and learn, jump on, but its not a free ride. If not, get off, and don't let the train run over you. In my school I am on the mat at every class, and teach if there is one person or 12 doesn't matter to me. I also train if no one is there, though I usually have enough for me to train as my kids train with me. So I am not at the whim of a parent, or adult who wants to train. Its my Kingdom, and I am the king, so I dictate what happens, not the student. So if you can live with my rules and the way I construct the environment for my students fine, if not, the door swings both ways, in and out. I have asked people not to return because their head wasn't in the right place, and I have had others quit because of what I demand. To me Martial Arts are a gift, and when you find those who share it, it only makes things better. But nothing is free, it may not be dollars, it maybe committment, dedication or a code of behavior, but it always cost something to get something. I think it depends on what the student wants and what he is going to put up with. My Sensei don't demand how I act, though lead me in a way that I should know how. I am not going to take one side or the other in how a Sensei should act to his students, and what he allows or doesn't allow, but the one thing I am sure of, is I am not an employee to my students. Maybe in a commercial dojo where you have 50 plus students and have to teach to keep students that may be the case, but for me, I dictate the rules and if you can't deal with it, then I am not for you.

Top
#134448 - 02/25/05 11:20 PM Re: Controlling your Students Behavior
Anonymous
Unregistered


I totally agree.

Otherwise, it turns it into something like how the public education system here is degenerating to - where educational bureaucrats are labelling students as "customers", and teachers as "employees" or "customer service agents". Where is the respect? Once students learn that they are the "customers", any concept of "code of conduct" goes out the window.

It also saddens me to see that the love and passion of teaching (and learning!) has been replaced by service provision, learning objectives, assessments, and pressure to perform.

I guess some of us are from the "old school". [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Although I would refrain from going as far to say we are substitute parents or siblings to the student, I generally think it a human thing to encourage the best in everyone, and to moderate the attitudes of those that need an attitude adjustment.

Let me put it this way:
What would you do if a customer demanded that you teach them the highest level of the art and that that they be graded to the next (x) level belt? Would you provide them the "service" or point them in the direction of the code of conduct and the door?

Likewise, how many businesses do you go to where the customer is directed to a "code of conduct" on how they should behave on the proprietor's premises?

Or yet another way, which teachers do you remember most from your school days and why? Because they were just another "employee" or because they nurtured something in you??

Top
#134449 - 02/26/05 07:29 AM Re: Controlling your Students Behavior
Anonymous
Unregistered


Double Posted

[This message has been edited by Shonuff (edited 02-27-2005).]

Top
#134450 - 02/26/05 07:40 AM Re: Controlling your Students Behavior
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by eyrie:

Let me put it this way:
What would you do if a customer demanded that you teach them the highest level of the art and that that they be graded to the next (x) level belt? Would you provide them the "service" or point them in the direction of the code of conduct and the door?

Likewise, how many businesses do you go to where the customer is directed to a "code of conduct" on how they should behave on the proprietor's premises?

Or yet another way, which teachers do you remember most from your school days and why? Because they were just another "employee" or because they nurtured something in you??

[/QUOTE]


I think my statements came out harsher than I intended, its just that I am fervently against anyone trying to tell me who I should be or how I should behave in my life, nor do I feel that it is my or anyone elses place to tell grown folk how to behave.

Demanding to be graded to a level beyond that they are ready for is not the service being provided, nor does it fit with the code of conduct. It may not sound as nice as romanticised MA student/teacher respect ideals, but so long as everyone is grown up about how they act there is no reason why there should be any difference in how people are treated between the two ideologies.

As for the second example about businesses you enter... everytime you get on a plane or walk into a resteraunt with a no smoking sign or get on a bus with a no loud music/no smelly food sign etc etc etc... Proprietors do not have to put up with unacceptable behaviour, and in a teaching environment this is especially true. You join and you sign a contract saying that u will not disrupt life for the other students you will not do anything to put the schools name in disrepute (look at any University).

As for which teachers I remember, the nurturers I remember (few though they were), but also those who were firm but fair earned my respect. I dont feel anyone should be teaching who doesnt love it, who isnt in it to nurture their budding MAists, but Adults should know how to behave. If you dont want to teach someone because you dont like them thats fine, shopkeepers dont serve people who tick them off or are rude, but why should it be the responsibility of an MA teacher to teach a grown adult how to behave? What possible reason could there be besides old oriental traditions?

Bare in mind I have no problem with being a role model and behaviour coach to children, but if you think an adult is such an ass he disrupts learning for others or is unpleasant to teach or he may misuse his ma skills then just dont teach him.

Sensei lou, I think perhaps your viewpoint is a better way of looking at it than the employee example I gave, on the other hand that attitude to MA teaching is also the cause of numerous MA cults and tyranical regimes wherein the teacher is "king" and wields that power with an iron fist to the detriment of his students. Much of that happens because the MA teacher is placed on this guru-like pedastal where he is given more authority and respect than he deserves precisely because he is something more than just a teahcer of MA skills and knowledge.

Top
#134451 - 02/26/05 01:12 PM Re: Controlling your Students Behavior
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I think there is one aspect of any Martial Art, any style, any practice and that is Respect. To me, Respect is the biggest tenant of the Martial Arts. Without it, you have a club. If that is what you want, great, join the Judo club, or golf club whatever. A club brings people together who's interests are the same, and its very social. Martial Arts schools teach many things from techniques to spiritual or mental training. What is wrong with a Sensei teaching lessons in life? No matter how old or talented you are, one who has more life experiences, or has seen other things can be a mentor. I am 52 years old, and I still look up to my Sensei for guidance, and insight on how to live my life. Its not a cult, its not heavy handed telling me how to live. What they are doing is sharing life experiences, and knowledge they have received, and help guide me in my path.I have tremendous respect for those who have taken the time and patience to help me. Its all about respect, respect for the art, the Sensei and the process. So what is wrong with someone showing a way for people to live? No one makes another do anything, you can always walk out the door. If one has an overbearing Sensei, and is cult like, leave, no one forces anybody to train or train with that person. People have a choice and if they choose to follow a Sensei's way, its their choice. Cult leaders only exist if they have followers, and no one makes them follow, its their choice. I find nothing wrong with a Sensei leading a student, no matter how old, on a path to make them a better person, family memeber Martial Artist, whatever. I have pretty much kept my feeling about this quite, but I feel you are Sensei on and off the mat, and its my job if a student needs a shoulder to cry on or just to be there. I feel if one of my students is in trouble I need to be there. One of my students had an emergency surgery having her gall bladder removed. when I got the call, I stopped class and took everyone to the hospital to make sure she was allright. We treat our Dojo like family, Ohana in Hawaiian, and close knit group that takes care of one another, are there for one another, and respect one another. to me this is what the arts are about, Respect!!!!

Top
#134452 - 02/26/05 03:41 PM Re: Controlling your Students Behavior
Anonymous
Unregistered


Members,
I have enjoyed reading what you all have contributed. In reguard to the original question of controlling a students behavior, I think it is a complex question. I think the goal should not be that I control them but that I help them establish an internal locus of control. I would want them to come to understand what it is that they want and why they want it. I want them to be disciplined enough to do what they have to and couragious enough to do what they want to. Life and natural consequences are better teachers than I'll ever be. Many people would think of me as a good or moral guy. It only proves that they don't know me or themselves well enough. I'm am happiest in the company of fellow strugglers and wounded healers. There are only two kinds of martial artist on the path,
those that are having a hard time, and those that will. We don't really teach what we know. We teach who we are.

oldman



[This message has been edited by oldman (edited 02-26-2005).]

Top
#134453 - 02/26/05 05:33 PM Re: Controlling your Students Behavior
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
I think there is one aspect of any Martial Art, any style, any practice and that is Respect. To me, Respect is the biggest tenant of the Martial Arts.
[/QUOTE]

I agree completely.

[QUOTE]
Without it, you have a club. If that is what you want, great, join the Judo club, or golf club whatever. A club brings people together who's interests are the same, and its very social.
[/QUOTE]

Here I disagree.. Ive never been to a club of any kind where disrespectful attitudes were tolerated.

[QUOTE]
Martial Arts schools teach many things from techniques to spiritual or mental training. What is wrong with a Sensei teaching lessons in life? No matter how old or talented you are, one who has more life experiences, or has seen other things can be a mentor.
[/QUOTE]

This is true, but, it pressumes that the teacher has lessons to teach that the student doesn't already know or that he/she would find valuable. It also presumes that the teacher is a good person who will teach good values. It also presumes that the teachers beliefs gel with the students. An MA teacher is a person with flaws and beliefs like anyone else, who is to say he/she has anything of value to offer in regards to being a mentor.

[QUOTE]
I am 52 years old, and I still look up to my Sensei for guidance, and insight on how to live my life. Its not a cult, its not heavy handed telling me how to live. What they are doing is sharing life experiences, and knowledge they have received, and help guide me in my path.I have tremendous respect for those who have taken the time and patience to help me.
[/QUOTE]

Thats great, but I want implying that you or anyone you know generates a martial cult around himself, but I have certainly seen it happen. Teachers who ball out students for messing up resteraunt bookings, who treat grown men like children because they are somehow higher than those they teach. Not everyone out there is a nice person, but that doesnt stop them from teaching MA.

If I walk into a dojo for the first time, the teacher does not know me. If I train for ten years and the only words Ive invited from them are to correct my technique, then they dont know me. To automatically assume the role of mentor in life because I've walked into a school or he/she's shown me punching and kicking for a while, (or even meditation and focussing exercises) is not that teachers place.

If I come looking for a mentor, asking advice etc etc thats fine, but that kind of thing is not the place of anyone (but parents) to assume. Now if Ive trained for ten years and there is a bond thats grown (no it doesnt need to be 10 years) then again thats different, but dont just assume because Im in your class I need or desire your guidance in anything other than MA.


[QUOTE]
Its all about respect, respect for the art, the Sensei and the process. So what is wrong with someone showing a way for people to live? No one makes another do anything, you can always walk out the door. If one has an overbearing Sensei, and is cult like, leave, no one forces anybody to train or train with that person. People have a choice and if they choose to follow a Sensei's way, its their choice. Cult leaders only exist if they have followers, and no one makes them follow, its their choice. I find nothing wrong with a Sensei leading a student, no matter how old, on a path to make them a better person, family memeber Martial Artist, whatever. I have pretty much kept my feeling about this quite, but I feel you are Sensei on and off the mat, and its my job if a student needs a shoulder to cry on or just to be there. I feel if one of my students is in trouble I need to be there. One of my students had an emergency surgery having her gall bladder removed. when I got the call, I stopped class and took everyone to the hospital to make sure she was allright. We treat our Dojo like family, Ohana in Hawaiian, and close knit group that takes care of one another, are there for one another, and respect one another. to me this is what the arts are about, Respect!!!! [/QUOTE]

Thats fine for you, its just a different viewpoint, and if you are a genuinely good person and can provide genuinely good advice thats great. But I dont feel that because someone has some years at martial arts they have the experience or right to be a life coach.

As far as cults, people get drawn into them for a variety of reasons and they stay for a variety of reasons. The fact that they do stay despite ill-treatment is testament in its self to the fact that its not as simple (at least in the cultists head) of walking out the door.

It is possible to have respect without deference. Respect of equals. Respect of individuals who have come together for a comon purpose. Respect for the knowledge of a teacher, but also respect for the knowledge of a student. There needs to be respect on both sides, or it isnt respect anymore. Why, if the MA teacher can be mentor, should the student not be mentor? He might actually be a qualified counsellor and life coach outside of the dojo, so what makes the MA teacher special.

You said if a student needs you to be there, thats fine. If any human being needs you, be there. If it is asked for, if it is desired or requested or even if it is just welcomed, but is it the teachers place to assume it is. Did you re-imburse your students for the lesson they missed? If I didnt know or like that person I would not have wanted my class interupted, I need the exercise for one thing! You treat your dodjo like a family, but not all familys are healthy, not all families are a good influence on the members. It is an admirable goal, and if it grows into that through the interactions a teacher has witha student and everyone is nice and balanced people, it is great, Ive experienced that in places Ive trained. But Ive also experienced the other side where the family are stuffed down your throat, in your business, and do not have your best interests at heart.

You are right, the arts are about respect. But is it respectful to enforce the beliefs (of behaviour, of life etc) of one onto all, just because he is the teacher of an MA? To me it does not seem so.



[This message has been edited by Shonuff (edited 02-26-2005).]

Top
#134454 - 02/26/05 11:08 PM Re: Controlling your Students Behavior
Anonymous
Unregistered


Shonuff,

All good points from another perspective.

[QUOTE]
But is it respectful to enforce the beliefs (of behaviour, of life etc) of one onto all, just because he is the teacher of an MA? To me it does not seem so.
[/QUOTE]

And you are absolutely right. But I don't believe the intent is to do so. I like how oldman put it .... "[to help them] establish a locus of control"...

Indeed, you are also right to imply, what gives us the right to do so? We are all imperfect beings, but we can always try to better ourselves, and also try to encourage others to be the best they can be.

However, if we subscribe to the virtues of budo, then as budo-ka, is it not our ethical and moral duty to temper or moderate the student's behavior - and I qualify - where it is needed?

Whether this is necessary or not, is entirely up to the individual teacher. The difficulty is, it is not all cut and dried. And I agree with oldman, we teach who we are. All we can do is share our life experiences.

As you suggest, I'm not saying everyone needs it or would even be receptive to such advice. It would certainly be inappropriate or not applicable to all. However, I believe we are talking about arrogant/egotistical individuals, who may also be good fighters. I also believe that, more often than not, such advice is usually "given" covertly, or couch in a story, and not expressed in so many words.

Sure you can request that they leave, but I think that is equally remiss (as budo-ka) - in effect, turning the "problem" student over to become someone else's problem.

This may not be a problem for some. And I'm not saying that it's right or wrong. Just different ways of how people deal with the issue.

This has been a really excellent discussion, and I can see your perspective is just as valid as the next.

Top
#134455 - 02/27/05 01:21 AM Re: Controlling your Students Behavior
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Eyrie,

Thanks for responding, you made some very good points as well.

I would just like to point out that in the case of arrogant egotistical individuals I am still advocating a means of curbing their behaviour. Codes of behaviour are common in our everyday lives, we encounter and abide by them without even thinking.
Aside from not putting the teacher onto a pedastal of moral authority, a simple behaviour code that everyone must abide by to me seems to me like a more effective way to get the message across.

Take the arrogant jerk who wins every tournament, but who gets on students and opponents nerves because he talks down to them. The behaviour code for the club says something like, "no one will antagonise other students or any persons while representing the school so as to preserve the teaching environment and the schools reputation". You tell him what he's doing and that he needs to stop because it upsets other students. If he continues putting people off with his attitude you tell him he wont be allowed to represent the school in tourneys. He may stay an arrogant person but his behaviour will have to modify, he wont be upset anyone and you've done nothing but manage your school. Also he will be made to think about his behaviour, and the change in his actions in its self will help him towards changing his attitude. Some of the best life lessons are learned simply by having rules and discipline enforced around us.

I understand the other side of things though... As I said for me the issue comes first when the mentoring role is being taken up by the teacher without being requested by the student. Second, with the fact that not all MA teachers are good people. As Oldman said, we teach who we are, but that may not be a good thing. Sanctioning these not so good people to become elevated above the men and women they teach disturbs me.

Good Debate eyrie!

Top
#134456 - 02/27/05 03:13 AM Re: Controlling your Students Behavior
Anonymous
Unregistered


Shonuff,

I take your point, but I don't think that it is about sanctioning or elevating a teacher above their students, whether or not that teacher has the appropriate moral rectitude.

I can therefore appreciate your reservations about mentoring someone without first being requested of it. However, mentoring is sometimes necessary where the person in question isn't even aware that they require it, as in the example you provided. It is like the coach pushing the athlete's buttons, because the athlete does not yet know their own potential.

Perhaps it is easier to point to a code of conduct, in such instances, to maintain a sort of professional distance - which in some cases is not such a bad thing. Or can we not rely on good old fashioned human decency - treat others as you would have them treat you, because our moral compass is questionable?

In which case, whose moral compass guided the development of that code of conduct, by which all and sundry must adhere to?

Good debate.

Top
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki, tkd_high_green 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Stun Guns
Variety of stun gun devices for your protection

Buy Pepper Spray
Worry about your family when you’re not around? Visit us today to protect everything you value.

Koryu.com
Accurate information on the ancient martial traditions of the Japanese samurai

C2 Taser
Protect yourself and loved ones from CRIME with the latest C2 Taser citizen model. Very effective.

 

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga