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#133131 - 04/22/04 09:37 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
You've been given some excellent advice from most of the others here!

A black belt is not the be-all and end-all, it merely shows that the person has learnt some skills and can apply them in the dojo. What happens outside the dojo can be a different scenario however most of us here have learnt how to avoid trouble and conflict through our MA.

I think the main thing is that both yourself and your daughter realise what good things she has gained from learning MA and self defence and that this may give her the chance of survival in a situation where an untrained person probably would not.

There are no guarantees in this world however learning to save your own life is one skill that every kid should learn along with first aid. If it involves avoiding contact with the wrong people then it has paid for itself over and over.

Teaching kids and adults to be aware of situations where they could be attacked [and what to do of they are] is one of the most important lessons they can learn.

Encourage your daughter to enjoy her training and learn as much as possible. Why don't you join up yourself and learn at the same time? Then you will gain an understanding of what MA training can bring to your life.

As the others have already said, most of us have learnt to avoid a conflict, and the women amongst us know from experience how difficult it can be to fight a "friendly" male attacker. ..

if the instructor has taught that black belt = invincibility then he is very wrong in his approach. Yes she may be able to fight off one small attacker but how will she fare with 5 or 6 determined ones?? Or a larger one?

When I have been grappling or sparring the younger kids, I can only hit them with about 1/3 of my strength otherwise they get knocked over and hurt. Ditto that for the grappling, I have more strength in my arms than they do in their legs... If I were a large man then this would be even worse for them.

One of the top fighters at our dojo was attacked by 5 larger bullys of a similar age [16] demanding money and her jewellery. She ended up being severely beaten up because 4 of them held her down while the 5th kicked the cr@p out of her and tore her hair out... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/mad.gif[/IMG]

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#133132 - 04/23/04 01:54 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
You're right. I am angry and resentful that I was not allowed to watch a movie in peace, as I would have been able to do had I been bigger or better trained. Also, I very much doubt that taking away someone's cell-phone from him (or even breaking it)would have landed me in jail for assault. As to walking away from insults, I have been doing that all of my life, and I'm tired of it.

And, although all ofyou advocate it, I am really not certain how many of you would really walk away from a situation in which you felt in control. Besides, you are all conveniently ignoring the fact that it is not POSSIBLE to walk away from every situation. You meet the same kids in school, every day. If you work, you meet the same people at work, everyday. It's always easier to give up and give in than to do anything to solve one's problems, perhaps, but I prefer to be proactive than simply just give up every time.

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#133133 - 04/23/04 02:54 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
CanuckMA Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 570
Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
Taking the phone is theft, breaking it is destruction of property, and the resulting scuffle is assault.

Nothing comes of violence. A large number of us have been in violent confrontations. I'll bet that most of us relive the incidents trying to find out what could have been done to walk away.

By being more aware of your surroundings and avoiding dangerous situations, you can avoid 99% of potential confrontations.

Your daughter is in grade 3-4? If she is being bullied, the solution is not physical violence, that will get her expelled. Talk to the school authorities.

As someone else said, seek counseling. You have a lot of misdirected anger and issues to work through. Talk to a professional before your anger consumes your daughter.

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#133134 - 04/23/04 03:30 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
We're basically going around in circles here. I've actually said that my daughter is not being bullied right now. I've also said that I don't expect MA training to make her a superhero. Since most people have not read or understood either of these statements despite my saying them repeatedly, I suppose I will continue to get responses that continue to ignore what I am saying. Not everyone has ignored my statements. I don't remember everyone's names right now, but JohnL, wadwoman, Yoseikan, and a few others come to mind, who have actually read and responded to what I AM saying rather than to what I am NOT saying.

As to anger, well, I admit I do feel angry at times. Perhaps none of you have ever felt this emotion, or you have run to a counselor at the first sign of anger -- justifiable or not. When someone is preventing me -- on purpose -- from doing something I have every right to do (such as watching a movie, in peace), that makes me angry with that person, and I believe that my anger is not misidirected. Now, if I were angry at someone else than the person creating the disturbance, certainly, that would be misdirected.

Perhaps the rest of the world lives in a Zen-like state where nobody feels any anger, hatred, joy, sorrow, ecstasy, etc. and I am alone in having any emotions at any time. Somehow, I don't think that is true.

The implicit belief of many (not all)respondents here seems to be that the only way to live is to run away from trouble and never to face one's problems. At the slightest sign of emotion, it appears, one must either get counseling or Prozac. I don't advocate violence and neither am I a violent person. This is part of the reason that I have ensured that my daughter receives MA training -- that she can get OUT of trouble, when it happens. You can only run so far and so often. There comes a point when the fastest runner in the world, even one on Prozac, has to turn around and face his problems.

Do you really believe I don't know what can get people into trouble and what cannot and does not? How many people do YOU know who have gone to jail for taking away a cell-phone, momentarily, when a person was being disruptive, purposely, by using that phone? Do you really BELIEVE that it amounts to stealing? Do you think any policeman or judge would believe that, for a second? I have seen kids throw ice in a theatre and hurt someone with it and not go to jail for it! I've had my stereo actually stolen from my car, and the culprits did not go to jail, even though they were caught. So, please, let's get real here.

On a gentler note, I do appreciate the advice about the chuks and the clarifications about what would work in a dojo as against what would work on the street. It has clarified certain things for me, in re MA training. For instance, I now understand why Krav Maga training is more effective on the street, than Tae Kwan Do training. The same school teaches both, and I wasn't sure which one I should enroll for, but now I do.

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#133135 - 04/23/04 05:00 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Anpadh:
The implicit belief of many (not all)respondents here seems to be that the only way to live is to run away from trouble and never to face one's problems. At the slightest sign of emotion, it appears, one must either get counseling or Prozac. I don't advocate violence and neither am I a violent person. This is part of the reason that I have ensured that my daughter receives MA training -- that she can get OUT of trouble, when it happens. You can only run so far and so often. There comes a point when the fastest runner in the world, even one on Prozac, has to turn around and face his problems.

Do you really believe I don't know what can get people into trouble and what cannot and does not? How many people do YOU know who have gone to jail for taking away a cell-phone, momentarily, when a person was being disruptive, purposely, by using that phone? Do you really BELIEVE that it amounts to stealing?
[/QUOTE]

An e.g.

I get cut up in my car by idiot at round about.

I blast horn and give finger.

He pulls over, so do I.

I'm trained hes not.

I smash him up.

I get charged with ABH or GBH or section 18 wounding, so on so forth.

Or I can let him cut me up.

Same goes for the cinema incident.

I grab phone - initate confrontation.

We argue, He grabs for phone, I shove, he tries to punch me, I smash him up.

Is it worth 5 years in jail?

No.

Prosecuting council makes me into superman because I train.

Yes the jury would convict, yes the judge would sentance.

Goodbye life.

Also, in fairness you are being horribly inconsistant. I appreciate you have dropped the idea of building the chucks, but you did want to give your child a weapon with two 12 inch blades for situations that you now describe as; quote: 'teacher got to close' or an older girl tries to bully her. It really doesn't make a lot of sense.

Yes if your back is up against the wall and you are in real fear for your or others personal safety, then let fly with everything you have got.

But this whole standing up for yourself thing never walking/running away is a nonsense fostered on society by the need to preserve ego, or peer pressure, pride etc. etc.

Alec


[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 04-23-2004).]

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#133136 - 04/24/04 10:45 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Alec,

There is no real inconsistency in what I have said. Yes, I did want to give her an impressive weapon because, when faced with overwhelming force, nothing less than a display of equally overwhelming force will persuade a person to back off. It's doubtful that a person bigger than her would back off if he thought that all he had to do was to grab a small, blunt, wooden stick. But, when he knows there are a couple of really big, sharp knives in there, too, it changes the equation, somewhat. Most people aren't quite willing to wrap their fingers around a sharp knife-edge.

The whole idea is that she would not have to use the weapon, but that if ever she did, it better be something unique and very powerful. The uniqueness could throw the person off-balance, somewhat, and the power should help to dissuade the person from continuing to attack. At the same time, I don't want to give her a gun, for several reasons, the main one being that I don't believe in guns. The main reason I dislike guns is that they are too easy. You can stand a thousand feet away from someone and still kill them, with a gun. This means that, in a moment of pique, you could fire a gun, with fatal results. To use a chuk, you have to be pretty close to the other person and you get to observe the damage you are doing, second by second, and you can stop when it's enough. Yes, I know, you can kill people with a nunchuk. You can also kill a person with a paperclip, if you know which pressure point to hit. Still, to my mind, a nunchuk is a far less dangerous weapon than a gun.

In any case, I have never advocated violence. I just feel that there is a median path -- one that does not involve running away or hitting the other person with a nuclear bomb. Most people here seem to disagree that a median path exists. If that's really true, it's sad, because it means that one can never live one's life in a self-respecting manner, no matter what. All you can do is to run, in any and every situation. If someone insults you, beats you, rapes you, robs you, etc. the best defense, apparently, is to do nothing, never to act, only to react and to react only with fear and cowardice.

Despite the advice to that effect, I very much doubt that anyone who has given that advice ahs actually ever followed it, in their lives. I don't know how well-trained people are, who have responded to me, but I can bet that a strong, well-trained person, has never let others walk over him/her, all day, every day.

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#133137 - 04/24/04 01:18 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
I'd like to address all of your post, but honestly I don't think I'm able.

Basically I'm like

'Its soooo not like that man!'.

and your like:

'it is'.

Doesn't get us very far. Whilst I can't fault your step by step reasoning, in my humble opinion, what you say and its implications are naive at best and dangerous at worst.

That is just my opinion and there is no personal offence attached to it.

I think the premise from which you argue is deeply flawed.

I will address this much. There is a vast ground between walking/running away and fighting.

There are a whole LOAD of other options. I'm ripping off a man called Geoff Thompson (UK self defence dude) here, but the 'art of fighting without fighting' is something I take seriously, and I do believe that I have avoided violent confrontation in the past because of it.

Most people don't want to fight and if you give them an option not to they won't. Even if they want to there can still be ways out. Its a question of posturing or of giving them loopholes of escape - so they can 'choose' not to fight. Perhaps a situation will allow you to trigger the 'flight', out of the 'flight or fight' response, with superior aggression or limited physical contact. Talking situations down, or your way out of them. Theres a vast amount of literature on avoiding situations where violence becomes an option.

I'd elaborate, but I'm painfully aware that I'm ill qualified to do so.

Sometimes you can't not fight or run. But in many cases its vastly unlikely that you will NEED to fight in middle class suburbia or even many other parts of the world, IF you are aware of your surroundings and other people.

I strongly believe carrying a weapon is foolhardy. You are breaking the law, raising the stakes, and introducing a weapon into a situation of which you have limited control. Its bad news in my book. But then some disagree, and I understand the point of view that for self preservation you need to counter violence with greater violence.

But thats just it. A weapon is an emenation of an intent to do another harm. Its a violent thing.

As for guns being 'easy', yes they are. Much more effective. Like, way off the scale effective. You can't fight it. If you want self defence like that - get your daughter a gun, get the proper licencing, get her proper instruction and training in the use of a handgun. Its so not something I'd ever do, but I can appreciate a reasonable person might.

Alec.

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#133138 - 04/24/04 01:24 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
CanuckMA Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 570
Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
Physical combat is an absolute last resort. Never initiate. Always look for a way to just walk away. If some a**hole insults me, what do you think I care what he thinks of me whan I ignore him and walk away. If somebody pulls a knife on me and wants my wallet, I'll give hime the 10 bucks in there. Until somebody initiates violence on me, I will not initiate violence.

Remember, The act of physical contact is assault. Putting your hand on a stranger's shoulder can be considered assault.

Also, although the exact wording changes between jurisdictions, you generally have to prove 2 things to claim self defense. One, you felt in imminent danger of physical harm. Two, you used the minimum amount of force to disengage and walk away. Failure to prove either of these will get you convicted. Consider this, We meet in a halway, I stand in front of you. You say 'move or i'll move you'. Whatever happens after that, you are the instigator.

Chill man.

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#133139 - 04/25/04 03:30 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
ASSAULT. (a) A person commits an offense if
the person:
(1) intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly causes
bodily injury to another, including the person's spouse;
(2) intentionally or knowingly threatens another with
imminent bodily injury, including the person's spouse; or
(3) intentionally or knowingly causes physical
contact with another when the person knows or should reasonably
believe that the other will regard the contact as offensive or
provocative.-Teaxs penal code

Pay special attention to #3-contact that is considered by the touchee as offensive or provacative.

THEFT. (a) A person commits an offense if he
unlawfully appropriates property with intent to deprive the owner
of property.
(b) Appropriation of property is unlawful if:
(1) it is without the owner's effective consent-Texas penal code

Taking someone's cell phone from them definitely fits theft description. Could also be robbery,if during the act you use threat of violence,violence or cause any injury-robbery is a felony.

CRIMINAL MISCHIEF. (a) A person commits an
offense if, without the effective consent of the owner:
(1) he intentionally or knowingly damages or destroys
the tangible property of the owner;
(2) a Class B misdemeanor if the amount of pecuniary
loss is $50 or more but less than $500;
CLASS B MISDEMEANOR. An individual adjudged
guilty of a Class B misdemeanor shall be punished by:
(1) a fine not to exceed $2,000;
(2) confinement in jail for a term not to exceed 180
days; or
(3) both such fine and confinement.

-Texas penal code

Destroying their cell phone is class b misdemeanor, means jail time and a fine.

So, for one little inconvenience you have racked up 3 seperate criminal charges and possibly a felony.
Is it worth it in the long run, for a few seconds of satisfaction?

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#133140 - 04/26/04 09:38 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
OK. My point is simple. My daughter must be able to stand up for herself. Yes, of course, where possible, confrontation, especially physical confrontation should be avoided. But when it is not avoidable, her attitude should not contradict her training. If someone, in short, is trying to intimidate her, she should be able to intimidate right back. If it ends there, great. If it doesn't, she should be (psychologically) able to use her training to get out of a bad situation.

The thrust of everyone's argument, on this board, seems to be that MA training is pointless and/or dangerous, but guns are fine. I am sorry, but I so completely disagree with that, I don't even know where to begin. To me, the whole point of learning MA is to learn to defuse a situation BEFORE it becomes deadly. If you have to knock someone out, or break his arm to do that, it is OK. It is better than killing the other person, or risking death just because you are too afriad to take direct action WHEN NECESSARY. And, yes, I have watched Enter the Dragon, too, where Bruce Lee demonstrates the art of fighting without fighting. I have seen similar scenes in Chinese and Indian movies also. But, bear in mind, in every case, the person who refuses to fight does not FEAR his opponent. There is a great difference between refusing to fight because it is pointless and refusing to fight because you are a coward, and all you can do is either run away or kill an unarmed person, with your gun.

I have said this before, and I will say it again: The best fighter is the one who is the most intelligent. Intelligence, to me, means knowing how much of your resources to expend on a given situation. Obviously, the most efficient way of fighting is to create the least risk to yourself, for the least amount of time. Creating least risk, to me, includes not getting into trouble after the fight is over, too.

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