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#133091 - 04/19/04 11:01 AM Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
My daughter is just under 10 years old. I fear for her safety, when she grows up, as she is always going to be petite because her mother and I are both short (I'm 5'7" and the mom is about 4 inches shorter). Right now, she is in an excellent school and lives in a good neighborhood, so the worry is not located in the immediate future. But, what I would like to do, is to create a weapon for her that is light, unobtrusive, and deadly. In 12 months or less, she will have earned her first-degree black belt in a "blended" system of MA, including jiu-jitsu, judo, kickboxing, etc. She has begun to learn the use of a nucnchuk, and is, according to her teachers, fairly proficient with them, and with other weapons, at this point, though she will receive training until her third-degree black belt.

What I want to do is to create a nunchuk that is all wood, but hollow, with a space in it for a pipe that can hold sand, lead pellets, or whatever, to make the nunchuk as light/heavy as she likes, and to sheathe 12-inch blades (one on each side of the nunchuk) in one section of the wooden frame. The idea is to give it a flat shape and make it quite slim so that she can wear it under her belt without it being noticed and without it becoming too heavy. I want to create a nunchuk that folds flat, yet snaps together instantly, by using flat panels, creating a kind of triangular or rectangular shape rather than the traditional round shape.

I would like to know what you guys think of this idea. I saw some interesting posts, particularly by someone called JohnL, who seems very knowldgeable. Those posts were about pressure points but, as I am posting here the very first time, I don't quite know how I got here from there. I originally wanted to post this there, as I want to make a nunchuk that is designed to hit pressure points, without coming into very close contact with the opponent, who may be armed.

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#133092 - 04/19/04 11:12 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
still wadowoman Offline
Improved beefier techno-prat

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 3420
Loc: Residence:UK- Heart:Md, USA
Having a daughter myself, I totally understand where you are coming from. However, you should first check that it is not illegal to carry nunchukks in the state you live in. I know that in some states it is illegal to even have them in your home. Here in the UK, it is OK to have them for training purposes, but definitely NOT to carry them.

If they are illegal to carry where you live, there are other things perfectly legal to carry that can make an effective weapon in the right hands.
Sharon

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#133093 - 04/19/04 11:19 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
I have not checked, but I am almost sure it is not illegal to carry nunchuks in Florida, as the MA class my daughter attends teaches the use of nunchuks, though only with the foam variety. The class says that they use the foam ones only so the kids won't hurt themselves, however -- not for legal reasons. Still, I will check.

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#133094 - 04/19/04 12:17 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Anpadh:
My daughter is just under 10 years old. I fear for her safety, when she grows up, as she is always going to be petite because her mother and I are both short (I'm 5'7" and the mom is about 4 inches shorter). Right now, she is in an excellent school and lives in a good neighborhood, so the worry is not located in the immediate future. But, what I would like to do, is to create a weapon for her that is light, unobtrusive, and deadly. .....
What I want to do is to create a nunchuk that is all wood, but hollow, with a space in it for a pipe that can hold sand, lead pellets, or whatever, to make the nunchuk as light/heavy as she likes, and to sheathe 12-inch blades (one on each side of the nunchuk) in one section of the wooden frame.
[/QUOTE]

Anpadh,

Honestly I think you are being a little too irrational with the nunchuku construction. Your daughter is 10 yrs old right?! Well let her enjoy being 10. She should be playing with dolls and having sleep overs and SHOULD NOT be toying around with a lethal instrument that you have decided to construct. Think of the physcological damage it could cause her if she actually used it and killed someone? I am thinking not only an assailant but also perhaps one of her friends. She could be showing them how to use it... somethings slips... BAM little Suzy has no friggin eye and her trachea is collapsed from the impact of weapon.
Also consider the diciplinary action she may encounter if she is caught in school with this. 10 yr old girls like to gossip and sooner or later it will get around that your daughter has a concealed weapon. She will be called in to the Principal's office, the weapon will be found and if she is lucky she will get suspended. If not she will get expelled and child services could be called because guess what, daddy told her it was ok to carry it to school. That's a real nice thing to have on her permanent record.

And, why may I ask, do you fear for her safety in such an extreme way? You live in Ft. Lauderdale which, from when I checked last, was a very nice middle to high income town. Not the murder capitol of Florida.

I think it is great that you have your daughter enrolled in a martial arts school to increase her safety just in case she is attacked. I am not thrilled you wish to arm her with a deadly, concealed, bladed, rectangular nunchucku.

You want to increase her safety? Have her take track or cross country in school. The faster she runs the quicker her escape. Also have her take courses in awarness, assessing danger with regards to body language, How to call for help, common traits and body language street attackers use to determine victims.

Regards,

Raul

[This message has been edited by Raul Perez (edited 04-19-2004).]

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#133095 - 04/19/04 12:50 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
still wadowoman Offline
Improved beefier techno-prat

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 3420
Loc: Residence:UK- Heart:Md, USA
Good post Raul. I thought he was talking about weapons for when his daughter is older.

Back to the nunchukas, just because it is not illegal to train them, does not mean it is OK to carry on the street.
Sharon

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#133096 - 04/19/04 12:57 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by still wadowoman:
Good post Raul. I thought he was talking about weapons for when his daughter is older.[/QUOTE]

Hi Sharon,

Regardless if it is for her when she is older it sounds like he wants to contruct this thing soon and probably wants to begin training his daughter to use it as soon as possible. And suppose he does not let her carry it around until she is older. At what point is she old enough to be trusted with such a weapon? Jr. High school, High school, college?

This sits bad with me.

Regards,

Raul

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#133097 - 04/19/04 02:01 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Yojimbo558 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/00
Posts: 253
Loc: Marina, Ca. USA
Hi Anpadh,

When dealing with my students and they ask me about what type of weapon they could carry to defend themselves, I have always discouraged them from selecting nunchucks.

The reason is simple, in California they are a Felony Weapon. While I agree that knowing a weapon is important in order to understand how to defend against it and exploit its weaknesses...I feel that if you're going to train with something you should focus on one that is legal & won't get you in greater trouble than the bastard that attacked you.

I don't know if nunchucks are legal in Florida...but the manner of construction you want to do is. Any defense attorney will with pleasure illustrate that you're daughter struck (( if such a situation happened in the future )) their client with a pipe...and that is a felony.

Eric

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#133098 - 04/19/04 02:52 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
What Raul says expresses and augments my thoughts, I read the post and was utterly at a loss for a reply. Shes like 9 man!!

[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 04-19-2004).]

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#133099 - 04/20/04 11:05 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
I appreciate the feedback. I was really looking for design suggestions and to know, basically, if the design was workable. Once my daughter has a black belt plus three months of training, her hands are registered as deadly weapons with the police, anyway, so I feel that the whole issue of nunchuks being legal is moot, really.

And, yes, Fort Lauderdale is safe, but she won't always be in Fort Lauderdale. As she grows up, she may be in places such as nightclubs, late at night. For that matter, unsafe situations can occur anywhere at any time. I just want to be sure that my daughter is always able to take care of herself, even against an armed assailant. I would rather have her carry a stick (which is what a nunchuk is) than a gun.

Still, I do appreciate the feedback and will look into the whole thing in more detail.

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#133100 - 04/20/04 12:43 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi Anpadh

I'd refrained from posting in reply as I thought others would give you advice, but a couple of points need clearing up;

1. Constructing a nunchuk is a waste of your time. A good quality nunchuk would do the job nicely, however there are pitfalls.

2. Owning nunchuks is illegal in some states, I'm sure that carrying them openly is.

3. When trouble goes off it goes off fast. Unless she's already holding them and prepared to use them, they're going to be no use at all.

4. Even if she uses them, she has introduced a weapon to the fray. If she injures her attacker she's liable to be jailed and sued because she escalated the violence. There's a good chance she may have the weapon taken off her and then used against her.

I can see very little, "up side" to carrying a weapon.

Teach your daughter common sense, guide her away from dangerous places, let her learn some self defense, and then hope for the best.

As for registering your daughters hands as lethal weapons, you don't have to. They aren't and won't be.

I have 2 daughters myself (13 & 15) and have similar worries to yours. I don't believe that carrying a weapon helps the situation.

JohnL

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#133101 - 04/20/04 01:45 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
John,

Thanks for the advice. I do advise her to stay out of trouble. However, I am not the one to advise her to run away from trouble. As to the possibility of someone taking away a nunchuk from a third-degree black belt, well, I must admit it is possible, as anything is possible, but it is not really likely. As to the nunchuk being available instantly, I want to construct it so it can be worn below a skirt or belt, to be unobtrusive and easily reachable.

All that said, I plan to take your advice and refrain from constructing/purchasing a nunchuk, for now. The idea was to give her a practical gift when she gets her black belt next year, something that shows her I take pride in her accomplishment as an MA artiste. I want to do more than give her a card or a ribbon or something silly like that. Of course, she will get her flowers and a hug/kiss and a visit to Mickey Mouse, and so on, but none of that shows my appreciation for her talent as a Martial Artiste. If you have any suggestions, I would appreciate them.

In regard to registering her hands as lethal weapons, her karate school says it is mandatory. I will check with Kiyoshi or KC LaVallee, just to be sure.

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#133102 - 04/20/04 02:05 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
still wadowoman Offline
Improved beefier techno-prat

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 3420
Loc: Residence:UK- Heart:Md, USA
There is nothing wrong with buying her a good set of nunchukkas or any other weapon for her to train with as a gift when she achieves black belt.

That doesn't mean it would be a good thing for her to carry them. I am sure she will treasure whatever gift you choose for her.
Sharon

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#133103 - 04/20/04 02:27 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Originally posted by Anpadh:
"As to the possibility of someone taking away a nunchuk from a third-degree black belt, well, I must admit it is possible, as anything is possible, but it is not really likely."

Actually the possibility is very high! Just because when she achieves her 3rd degree she is not invincible. It's the individual not the rank that is important and makes the system "deadly". I know some 2nd degree black belts that could not beat their way out of a wet paper bag. I know some mid level students that can wipe the floor with almost anyone in the room (instructors included!). And BTW (and I say this with respect) any 13-16 year old 3rd degree black belt is not highly regarded in the self-defense oriented Martial Arts community.

Originally posted by Anpadh:
"All that said, I plan to take your advice and refrain from constructing/purchasing a nunchuk, for now. The idea was to give her a practical gift when she gets her black belt next year, something that shows her I take pride in her accomplishment as an MA artiste."

You can give her anything you wish. I am sure anything you give will be thrilling to her.
But it sounds like you are looking for a practical weapon that is eaisly concealed and can strike Pressure Points fairly well. If that is the case I think the nunchuku is not the best idea. I would suggest researching the Yawara stick, Kubotan, or Chizikunbo.
But as John said, introducing a weapon could have some serious legal consequences.

Originally posted by Anpadh:
"In regard to registering her hands as lethal weapons, her karate school says it is mandatory. I will check with Kiyoshi or KC LaVallee, just to be sure."

I can not speak for Florida but here in NY it is nothing more than a myth. Sounds like a way to get more money out of you. If anything it would increase your daughter's liability if she was attacked and caused serious damage to her attacker.

Regards,

Raul

[This message has been edited by Raul Perez (edited 04-20-2004).]

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#133104 - 04/20/04 05:53 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi Anpadh

Glad to hear you're revising your thinking of nunchuks for street use. I honestly believe you'd be creating a problem more than solving one.

As for a gift. Completely up to you.

Just remember, she's not a martial artist who can deal death to 20 attackers at a time, she's not lethal, she's not the weapon wielding avenger of the apocalypse.

She's your 10 year old daughter.

Enjoy her for what she is.

Good luck.

JohnL

[This message has been edited by JohnL (edited 04-20-2004).]

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#133105 - 04/20/04 09:11 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
CanuckMA Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 570
Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
registering the hands as deadly weapons is a myth. Anywhere.

Carying a concealed weapon is a felony almost everywhere. Carying anything that can be construed as a weapon is a susoension offence in most school districts.

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#133106 - 04/21/04 03:30 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
I am really happy to receive so much sincere and informed feedback. However, I am a little curious about what Raul said in re the fact that young teens at any level are not regarded seriously in self-defense circles. I am just wondering why that is. I have seen my daughter and others being trained. Yes, I don't think she is Batwoman, but, still, I have seen a class full of kids at her level being trained to take down an adult, in less than a second, even when the adult is wielding a weapon, such as a knife or club.

I will admit that I got my daughter to start training in MA for the focus and concentration rather than the self-defense skills. However, if even third-degree black-belt skills aren't to be taken seriously, on the street, then I suppose it makes no difference whether or not she continues her MA training until she is in her 20's or 30's. I find that rather disturbing. I do want her to be able to defend herself, at least from her peers, in high school and even college. If 10 plus years in MA training is all useless, for that purpose, then she may as well take up origami, as of next year.

I would really like to have some feedback on this.

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#133107 - 04/21/04 03:44 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
Martial arts training only goes so far. No ten year old is going to be able to take on a fully grown adult male and have a high probability of winning. A 100lb. woman is not going to have a high probability of beating up a 230 lb man.

Martial arts training does not make you superhuman. It teaches you to use what you have more efficiantly and how to use more of your body as a weapon. It will not give you the ability to kick everyones butt, it may give you a chance where before you had none.

As for children learning self defense-certain movements, targets etc are not for children. It is ethicaly wrong to teach someone crippling/maiming/killing techniques that do not have sufficient emotional control or maturity to apply them in the appropriate circumstance.

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#133108 - 04/21/04 03:59 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
I may have misinterpreted what you said, but it seems to me that what you are saying, basically, is that it is more effective to point a gun at someone than to receive training in MA. My understanding always has been that MA training is a kind of equalizer in situations where one would be facing basically overwhelming odds, without the training. I don't think the training makes one superhuman, to the point where one can fight an army, alone and weaponless. But, I do feel that a 100-lb woman, trained in MA should be able to overcome a 200-lb opponent, who is totally untrained. If that is not the case, then, as I see it, MA training is as effective, for purposes of self-defense, as doing nothing whatever.

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#133109 - 04/21/04 04:23 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
To add to what Neko said:

Regardless of what you see or hear in the movies size and weight DOES MATTER. What martial arts does is give the shorter, lighter person more skill (better targeting for anatomical weak points), and increased power relative to their size (through economy of motion and proper skeletal alignment) along with evasive maneuvers to HOPEFULLY create enough DAMAGE to ESCAPE an untrained attacker. A smaller, lighter person should never try to go toe to toe cause 9/10 times they will lose. That is why I advocated that your daughter do track or cross country. The odds will go the other way if the attacker is trained himself.

As for street assaults including weapons… 95% of the time you will not know your attacker has a weapon (especially a knife). And almost 100% of knife attacks the defender is cut or stabbed at least once. Again why I proposed your daughter take courses in awareness and the signs street predators use to determine a victim. If she is aware of her surroundings and does not display any victim like traits her chances of being attacked go down. And even if she is targeted she is aware of it and can find an avenue of escape.

Martial arts gives you more of a chance than if you did nothing. It does not give you the ability to take on anyone or everyone (regardless if they are trained or not).


Regards,

Raul

[This message has been edited by Raul Perez (edited 04-21-2004).]

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#133110 - 04/21/04 04:24 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
PS

And yes it is more efficient and combat effective to point a gun at someone and pull the trigger. Think of all the bruises and energy saved. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Raul

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#133111 - 04/21/04 04:30 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
Raul put it more succinctly than I did-
Training in MA gives you a chance where without it you had no chance. Best advice to anyone-avoid the situation rather than deal with it.

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#133112 - 04/21/04 05:17 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
I must admit I am somewhat disappointed at some of the latest responses. The whole idea (as far as I am concerned) of being trained in MA is that one does not need to run away and that a person is confident enough to DEAL with virtually anyone who tries to intimidate you with sheer size. Running away, to me, is not usually a good option, in what I would call "normal" situations, such as being targeted by bullies in school. If you run away, you continuously get targeted and the consequences of each subsequent encounter are always worse than the previous one. Trust me, I know. I was never one of those people who is a constant victim, though I am shorter and smaller than most people, but, like anyone else, I was bullied in school, occasionally. These types of incidents decreased dramatically, once I learned to execute just ONE simple judo trick.

Yes, I don't want my daughter to beat up people just because she can, but neither do I want her to start running every time someone looks at her aggressively. I honestly don't think she will be called upon to defend herself in a life/death situation, but I do want her to be able to scare away potential bullies by being physically trained, and mentally prepared, to fight.

Perhaps I sound overly-aggressive when I say this, but running away is simply not an option, to me. And I'm saying so despite never having been in a physical fight for the last 25 years AND being totally untrained in any form of self-defense. Still, I must admit I hate being forced to back down against morons who are bigger and stronger, when they are being insulting, just because I can't afford to do so. I need to be around to take care of my daughter, if nothing else, and so I have to be more responsible than I was, as a teenager.

So, the bottom line is that I want my daughter NEVER to back away from a fight, though I would prefer she be able to talk her way out of it as far as possible. But, what I am hearing, here, is that no matter what, the best thing to do is to run. My daughter and I do run a mile every day and she has to be able to run 3 miles in 24 minutes by next year, but if that is all, then why bother with the MA training? I don't mean just her. I mean why train ANYONE in MA, except for police and army and such?

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#133113 - 04/21/04 05:59 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
The point that everyone has been trying to make is that no matter how much training your daughter has, and how good she is in the dojo, the whole purpose of MA training for SELF DEFENCE is simply that.

If the best defence is to run away from a situation your daughter should be encouraged to do so, not forbidden to do so as you have stated.

Her MA training may mean that instead of being killed or severely maimed, she is able to get away from a determined attacker with only minor injuries.

If she develops awareness of the situation and can deal with it accordingly by making her own choices then this is far better than slugging it out with a bloke who may or may not be intending to kill her right from the start.

I'm a pretty strong woman and have done MA for a number of years in multiple disciplines, and have spent a lot of time fighting men and grappling with them and I know from this that their size and physical strength gives them a distinct advantage over me in many situations.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/mad.gif[/IMG]

If I was confronted by an armed attacker that I thought was going to kill me I would be running as fast as my legs would take me!

I would not be sticking around to see if I could outfight him or outgrapple him because I know from experience that it will be very hard for me to get the upper hand unless it is by surprise.

ditto for multiple attackers.

The first thing that we are taught is to try and talk out of the situation and to escape if at all possible. Fighting is the last option when escape and everything else has failed.

My son is in a similar position to your daughter, and of a similar age. He is already pretty adept at swinging his chucks but he certainly won't be carrying them as a concealed weapon when he's out and about.

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#133114 - 04/21/04 06:49 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Oh Anpadh

I know it's difficult to understand. I suggest you read a couple of past threads. One is titled Agism in MA and then take a selection from the self defense section of the forum regarding weapons, both uses and pitfalls.

It may help.

Your assumption that because your daughter is taking a MA and therefore will be able to defend herself is incorrect. MA's get beaten all the time.

What I have found from my training is the following;

1. I appreciate what damage can be done to me and what damage I can do. This is after studying various Martial Arts for some 35 years. It also helps that I am 6'1", male and about 230lbs.

2. I have learnt not to take myself too seriously and keep a sense of humour. I find both of these attributes to be excelent self defense attitudes.

Your daughter is 10 years old. Forget about her needing self defense. If she wants to study a MA, fine. Let her enjoy herself. Let her enjoy herself being what she is.

A kid!

I think you need to deal with your own paranoia before it starts infecting your daughter.

There aren't stick wielding sadists around every conrner. There are not rapists in every elevator lobby.

You have 5-6 years before you really need to consider the subject seriously. I suggest that you take that time to train in a martial art to find out what they can and can't do for you.

In the meantime, if your daughter masters taking down a knife/club wielding adult in less than a second, please let me know. I would travel a long way to be taught that. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Best of luck.

JohnL

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#133115 - 04/21/04 08:01 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
John,

I appreciate that you are a trained MA yourself and that there is much I can learn from you while there is little I can teach you. Not being a trained MA myself, I will do my best to describe to you the technique that I saw my daughter and other kids being taught, that resulted in an armed adult being brought down in a second. You can judge for yourself whether or not it would work in a real-life situation. I believe it would, but then, as I said, I am neither a trained MA nor have I ever encountered any serious violence in my life. I saw this training session about 2 months ago, so I may not remember all of the details. Here's the situation: The attacker lunges at the victim, from the front or side, holding a knife or stick. If from the front, the "victim" side-steps, kicks the attacker behind the knee (on the same side that the weapon is), pushes his knuckles into the attacker's throat, as he falls, grabs the attacker's wrist and slices the knife into the attacker's neck. When properly executed, either by an instructor or an advanced student, the entire process takes less than a second. No real strength is required, as there is a pressure point behind the knee (I think) that forces the leg to fold, so that the attacker MUST fall. There did not seem (to me) to be enough time for the attacker to either avoid the move or react to it. I didn't actually time it, but it probably took less than a second, altogether, from start to finish.

I'm sure you are having a little fun at my expense here, as you are probably aware of such techniques already, though I am not. However, since you asked, I described it to you. I don't believe that learning MA makes my daughter Superwoman or Batwoman but I do believe that most people would be ill-advised to attack her, even now, when she does not yet have her black belt. I don't say that nobody could beat her. I wouldn't say that of Bruce Lee. Anybody can be beaten, in the right circumstances, even by an untrained and unarmed person. However, I believe that there is as much chance of anyone like me, for instance, beating up a black belt in any MA, regardless of his/her age, as there is of my being drowned in a can of Pepsi. It's possible, of course, but unlikely.

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#133116 - 04/22/04 02:03 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
still wadowoman Offline
Improved beefier techno-prat

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 3420
Loc: Residence:UK- Heart:Md, USA
My daughter is 9 and a half and has been training in karate under me for 5 years. She has been learning practical (street) self defence for about 3 and a half years. She is very good at what she does for her age and size. At school no one has ever tried to bully her more than once.

However, although she can defend herself well against someone her own size and a little bigger, there is no way she could defend herself against a 16 year old, let alone a full grown man.

By the same token, after 10 years of training, no way would I go toe to toe with a man if I was attacked. I believe my training would give me more chance of escaping relatively unharmed than a untrained woman of equal size, but it does not make me able to take on all comers.

I am afraid that if your daughter's instructor tells you otherwise he is either misleading you or has been sadly misled himself.

We say these things not to make fun of you or your daughter, nor out of any kind of disrespect. We merely state the truth.
Sorry

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#133117 - 04/22/04 07:13 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
CanuckMA Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 570
Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
Anpadh,

We mean no disrespect. However, you are being seriously misled, and/or have watch way too many MA movies. The move you describe only works under controlled situations. It depends on the attacker's knee being bent so that it will fold. Assuming it does fold, the forward momentum will most likely put his throat out of range before it can be struck. I doubt very much that a 10 year old will have enough strength to manipulate a grown man's arm all the way back to his throat to slice it.

The only truly effective defense is running away at the first opportunity.

The class I train with is mostly teenagers of vaious skills and sizes. A couple of months ago, we went through a streetproofing class. After emphasizing the run away aspect, we had the kids practice resistance against a grab. Not active striking only, but things like dropping to the ground to slow down an attack and atract attention. When a young lady ask why not just hit, Sensei asked me to 'kidnap' her. I'm 5'10", 200lbs. She is 14, 5'5" and about 100lbs. She as to be relaxed, not anticipating an attack. I just walked up to her and grabbed her over my shoulder and started carrying her.

The emphasis in MA self defense training is to train to be able to run away. Please do not make your daughter feel so confident that she will try to fight all the time. Your best fight is always the one you avoid.

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#133118 - 04/22/04 07:29 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Anpadh,

There is a massive difference between a dojo scenario, where the attack is preplanned as is the response and the so called 'real world'.

No adrenaline, no fear, no surprise, no unknown situation.

I agree that standing up to bully has its merits. But standing up to a rapist thats twice your size, and three times your strength, when walking home in the dark, after a night out, wearing stiletos and thinking about the boy you just kissed after a having a few drinks..................

Its sooo not the same. Thats why the guys are saying run, learn to be aware, be careful about walking home by yourself, who you socialise with etc. etc.

In the dojo, not only does your daughter know what is coming and what she is expected to do, I cannot believe that the attacker is really trying to hurt her. And if he was he shouldn't be allowed to train. Almost all training (and certainly all training with children), is done with some compliance.

I'm a 20 year old male who's been playing around in the MA for 6 and bit years. I've trained in karate under Instructors who have had to deal with violence in the day to day course of their occupations. I also box competitively.

Faced with (entirely hypothetically!) say a black belt 12 year old girl, I'd pick her up and put her on her head. She WOULD NOT stop me. And I'm only 150 pounds. I don't care if shes trained all her life for 6-8 hours a day.

Faced with a 3rd dan 20 year old woman of average build - if I were the sort of person that was so inclined and motivated - I would be extremely confident in attacking her. I haven't even got a black belt myself. I would have surprise, I'm young, strong for my weight, fit, fast, aggressive.....

The same in reverse. I'd be terrified of a 40 year old 300 pound man that had spent his life doing hard physical labour, and decided when drunk to smash my face in. I'd RUN LIKE HELL. Okay if i can't then yes I'll throw everything I've got at him and convince myself that I've got a real chance. But objectively hes gonna kill me!

Sorry mate, but thats the truth.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Al.

[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 04-22-2004).]

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#133119 - 04/22/04 09:11 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
I must say that I am somewhat depressed by what I am reading here. What it seems to come down to is that my daughter is better off being obese than being trained. All of her training in hand-to-hand as well as armed combat is about as effective in a self-defense situation as playing with her Barbies. She doesn't have to learn anything except to squeeze a trigger, run, and be really fat, and neither she nor anyone else needs any kind of training to do any of those things. It would seem that the effectiveness of MA techniques in real-life situations is nothing more than a myth perpetuated by Chinese and Hollywood movies.

I find this really hard to believe but, if it is true, then I will take my daughter out of MA training once she gets her first black belt. So far as I am concerned, she has already benefited in the way I wanted -- namely, to increase her concentration. Other skills, such as learning to play a guitar, or learning to sing, will equally help her concentrate, in the future. MA training, I thought, would help her defend herself, in addition to being focused. But it seems, from what everyone is saying here, that she is better off taking hormones to increase her height and weight than to train in any form of self-defense, unless it is just for fun. Even years of MA training, under the best of instructors, is basically pointless, in any practical sense.

On the other hand, learning to sing will make her a better singer, and learning to play a musical instrument will increase her proficiency in that instrument, over time, with practice. So, aside from the sheer joy of learning something new, there is no practical benefit to learning the martial arts, in the long term. As a system of self-defense it is useless, and the only important physical aspect of it is to run away, for which track and field training is more effective than MA training.

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#133120 - 04/22/04 09:14 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Basically what everyone is saying is that a training scenerio in the dojo with a compliant partner is totally different from a sudden assault from a non-compliant aggressor.

Try it yourself. After your daughter achieves her black belt.... one day at the house suddenly "attack" her. Post your results.

Kind regards,

Raul

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#133121 - 04/22/04 09:28 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Anpadh,

Is everything so black and white to you? Have you not read anything that we have written? MA will INCREASE her chances of getting away from an attacker/rapist/mugger. But there is no guarantee! This is life.

Practicing an instrument will increase your abilities does that mean eventually you will be the best and play in the Phil-harmonic (sp)? NO. Practicing singing will increase her abilities but will she be the next Christina Aguellera (sp)? Probably not. Do you see where I am going with this?

Keeping her in MA will increase her chances for survival. It will not make her able to go toe to toe with any agressor. Her best chance is to run away. It saves hospital bills, lawyer fees, and mental anguish. If all else fails and she can not escape, strike away! But do enough damage to ESCAPE.

I am a little annoyed now because you feel now she has received nothing from her training. This is where you are wrong. She has increased her chances of survival. But please, for all things holy, get the thought of your daughter going toe-to-toe with any agressor out of your head!!!! Also, get the thought of running away is cowardice out of your head!!!!

Regards,

Raul

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#133122 - 04/22/04 10:23 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
I am not exactly sure what you mean by the term toe to toe. To me, it means the exact opposite of martial arts. It is simply 2 people standing toe to toe and slugging it out. That's no way to fight, whether you are trained or not. To me, the idea behind MA training is that you learn not to fight like an idiot and learn to use the other person's advantages against him. For instance, against a tall, lean person, you would stay close, so that he cannot put much power into his punches. Against a short, fat, person, you would stay away and make him reach for you, exhausting him in the process.

And, actually, yes, if she were interested enough, I believe my daughter should learn to play an instrument well enough to be in the Philharmonic. Being Britney or Madonna has more to do with marketing than talent. In the MA classes, I believed they taught more than physical skills. I've never believed that it is the tallest or the heaviest boxer who wins, for instance. It is the smartest one who wins, given the exact same level of physical training, as for instance in world class boxing. And they don't win by either running away or by fighting toe to toe.

THAT is what I want my daughter to learn. I want her to know that you cannot always run from a fight, and that when you do fight, it is best to fight intelligently, than to slug it out or to panic. I've never believed that being defensive means allowing the other person to attack first. That simply takes away your initiative. Being defensive, to me, means scaring the crap out of the other person before he attacks so that, hopefully, HE will run away. Failing that, the best thing to do is to smack the other person as hard as you can, as quickly as you can, so he is disoriented and off-balance as the fight begins. With any luck, you can knock him out with your first hit, so you don't get hurt at all. That is an ideal situation, of course, and I don't expect it to happen, usually, but that is the objective, so far as I am concerned: Scare away or injure the other person so that you are yourself always at the maximum advantage and face the minimum risk of getting hurt. Minimum doesn't mean zero, of course, because there is never zero risk, no matter what.

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#133123 - 04/22/04 11:40 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Anpadh:

THAT is what I want my daughter to learn. I want her to know that you cannot always run from a fight, and that when you do fight, it is best to fight intelligently, than to slug it out or to panic.
[/QUOTE]

Thats great. You are a thoughtful loving parent. Its just a case of rationalising your expectations.

I wouldn't want to speak for Raul, but I think when he says 'toe to toe', hes not necessarily implying that as a method for which one should try and defend themselves against a bigger person.

Simply that bigger stronger people are harder to take down and that MA training is not a magic wand that can equalise that fact. Especially if they ambush you.

Martial arts is funny like that. Its such a broad term, with so many connotations. Some would argue (including myself at the grand old age of 20) that its not possible to teach a child under the age of 12 or possibly 14 what real violence is (unless they have direct experience of it, which is obviously undesirable), let alone how you might go about countering it.

Its not about a belt with tags. Its about the fear of a broken bottle in your face. Its about how you respond when without any provokation or warning, someone hits you hard enough to drive the air from your body. Can you physically fight back? Can you adjust quickly enough mentally?

Real violence is a knife in the back when you were looking the other way. The blood loss, the shock, the inability to comprehend what is happening or why, let alone make a decision about what course of action to take.

Real violence makes you doubt your training, the adrenaline dump draws blood into the body and away from the periphery, you look pale, your brain is functioning with less blood inside, your heart rate and breathing rate jumps through the roof - your decision making is impaired. You shake, you feel frozen to the spot, you get tunnel vision, your body reacts in such a way to convince your mind that you are frightened.

That further encourages doubt. The adrenaline dump experienced when ambushed is mind blowing. You cannot put a 10 year old in a situation where they can learn what that is like. Its not ethical. therefore the most important part of defending yourself -the mental aspect cannot be taught to young child.

But its all academic. Its just words. It would be so much easier to show you why your earlier posts struck as unrealistic.

Yes MA help, depending on the instructor and the way the student is trained. But it is not as simple as that.

Violence isn't simply a case of fighting 'intelligently'.

I hope you can see the truth of that without taking offence - none is intended. A fifteen year old 3rd degree black belt is massively unlikely to have a complete toolbox of training to comprehend let alone deal with real violence.

alec [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 04-22-2004).]

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#133124 - 04/22/04 12:20 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
CanuckMA Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 570
Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
Don't take your daughter out of MA. The skills she learns are usefull. They are not magic.

Yoseikan is right, until you have experienced real violence, there is no way to know how you will react. The most important thing to remember is DON'T FIGHT. MA will train you do use that one or two technique that will open a path to flee. Most of that scenario you decribe is useless in a self defense situaton. Pretty much everything after taking the knee is too much.

Those of us who practise striking arts usually do what is called 1, 2 or 3 step sparring. They are set attack and defend scenarios. They involve an attacker doing 1, 2 or 3 attacks that you defend against and then the defender responding with one attack. They are used to drill the concept of avoid and strike back. Once should be enough to disorient or disable an attacker enough to run away.

I don't want to dissulusion you, but I think you just have to readjust your expectation of what MA is. The art taught to your daughter is a good mix of striking, throws and submission. As long as you and your daughter know that it is not a license to ignore danger signs, she'll be OK.

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#133125 - 04/22/04 12:44 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
still wadowoman Offline
Improved beefier techno-prat

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 3420
Loc: Residence:UK- Heart:Md, USA
I agree. Don't take her out of training, especially if she enjoys it. The training she has already had will give her a better chance, just not make her invincible.

As she grows and matures, continuing to train will increase her chances of surviving an attack (if it ever happens which hopefull, it won't).

I really am sorry that some of us have upset you, but it is better you and your daughter understand this.
Sharon

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#133126 - 04/22/04 01:36 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Originally posted by Anpadh:
"I am not exactly sure what you mean by the term toe to toe. To me, it means the exact opposite of martial arts. It is simply 2 people standing toe to toe and slugging it out. That's no way to fight, whether you are trained or not. To me, the idea behind MA training is that you learn not to fight like an idiot and learn to use the other person's advantages against him. For instance, against a tall, lean person, you would stay close, so that he cannot put much power into his punches. Against a short, fat, person, you would stay away and make him reach for you, exhausting him in the process."

Yoseikan Student answered this for me... Thanks!

Originally posted by Anpadh:
"And, actually, yes, if she were interested enough, I believe my daughter should learn to play an instrument well enough to be in the Philharmonic. Being Britney or Madonna has more to do with marketing than talent."

Clearly you missed my message entirely. My message was that there are no guarantees.

Originally posted by Anpadh:
"In the MA classes, I believed they taught more than physical skills. I've never believed that it is the tallest or the heaviest boxer who wins, for instance. It is the smartest one who wins, given the exact same level of physical training, as for instance in world class boxing. And they don't win by either running away or by fighting toe to toe."

Here you are comparing apples to oranges. Boxing is a sport in which 2 trained athletes compete in "mutual combat" in a restricted space using their fists under specific rules for our entertainment. Street fighting is a no rules engagement where anything can happen and the element of surprise is usually used.

Originally posted by Anpadh:
"THAT is what I want my daughter to learn. I want her to know that you cannot always run from a fight, and that when you do fight, it is best to fight intelligently, than to slug it out or to panic. I've never believed that being defensive means allowing the other person to attack first. That simply takes away your initiative."

I agree.

Originally posted by Anpadh:
"Being defensive, to me, means scaring the crap out of the other person before he attacks so that, hopefully, HE will run away. Failing that, the best thing to do is to smack the other person as hard as you can, as quickly as you can, so he is disoriented and off-balance as the fight begins. With any luck, you can knock him out with your first hit, so you don't get hurt at all. That is an ideal situation, of course, and I don't expect it to happen, usually, but that is the objective, so far as I am concerned: Scare away or injure the other person so that you are yourself always at the maximum advantage and face the minimum risk of getting hurt. Minimum doesn't mean zero, of course, because there is never zero risk, no matter what."

If we just concentrate this statement on your daughter I can tell you that there is no way she will scare any male attacker. By the simple fact that females (for the most part) are not physically intimidating to males. And if she does hit the male aggressor and does not cause much damage she has just enraged her attacker to want to inflict more bodily harm upon her.
As I have stated in previous posts, it is best for your daughter to strike and run than strike and fight. This is the last time I will say this whether it sinks in or not.

She who fights and runs away......

To comment on Wadowoman's response, If I have upset you I am really glad. Because I would rather you be upset and aware than content and unaware. Ignorance is a disease.

Regards,

Raul

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#133127 - 04/22/04 02:53 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
OK I think I have finally understood the source of the misunderstanding in re my daughter defending herself. I don't honestly think she will ever be in a truly dangerous place, such as a prison, or a streetgfight with drug dealers, where she may have to fight to the death. I am thinking of more "normal" circumstances. A boyfriend who tries to slap her around; a girl who's bigger than her, being insulting; a teacher getting too close; someone trying to snatch her purse; basically, situations in which she is no real danger, but where it would help for her to feel confident and capable rather than weak and fearful.

I'm really not thinking of situations in which a Mafia hitman with a submachine gun would be targeting her. I'm just thinking of more or less normal situations that could happen to anyone. For instance, I was watching a movie a couple of days ago, and the guy in front of me was talking on his cell-phone the whole time the movie was on. The theatre was packed, so I couldn't move to another seat. I couldn't make him shut up either, because he was 4 inches taller and probably 40 pounds heavier, in addition to being younger and leaner than I am. Now, if I were a blackbelt, I would have crushed his phone, at the very least, without worrying about what he could do to me.

I wouldn't want to fight someone with a gun or a knife, who was a gang member or some type of criminal. But, of course, I would like to be able to enjoy my movie. I hope you understand where I am coming from, now. I don't expect my daughter to be fighting serial killers or terrorists or people like that, just people more or less like herself, who are basically civilized, but trying to take advantage of the fact that she is a girl, and a small one, at that. And, I am not thinking only of right now, but of when she is an adult (16 and up). At this moment, if anyone attacked her in school, she wouldn't have to defend herself. Her whole class would do that for her. She's been with most of these kids 4 years or more and is good friends with almost each and every one. Besides, she isn't the kind of kid that gets into trouble. I always ask every teacher, mid-year, if my daughter is ever in trouble and always the teacher looks at me as if I were crazy. So, no, I don't think my daughter would normally be in trouble, and I certainly don't expect her to get stabbed, shot, etc.

It's just that I don't want her being bullied by people like the guy with the cell-phone in the movie theatre.

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#133128 - 04/22/04 03:11 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
CanuckMA Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 570
Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Anpadh:
OK I think I have finally understood the source of the misunderstanding in re my daughter defending herself. I don't honestly think she will ever be in a truly dangerous place, such as a prison, or a streetgfight with drug dealers, where she may have to fight to the death. I am thinking of more "normal" circumstances. A boyfriend who tries to slap her around; a girl who's bigger than her, being insulting; a teacher getting too close; someone trying to snatch her purse; basically, situations in which she is no real danger, but where it would help for her to feel confident and capable rather than weak and fearful.[/QUOTE]

None of those situations requires fighting. Leave the boyfriend, walk away from an insult, talk to the teacher's supervisor, give away the purse. In this last case, you will find that the majority of us will give up our wallet rather than risk injury.


[QUOTE]I'm really not thinking of situations in which a Mafia hitman with a submachine gun would be targeting her. I'm just thinking of more or less normal situations that could happen to anyone. For instance, I was watching a movie a couple of days ago, and the guy in front of me was talking on his cell-phone the whole time the movie was on. The theatre was packed, so I couldn't move to another seat. I couldn't make him shut up either, because he was 4 inches taller and probably 40 pounds heavier, in addition to being younger and leaner than I am. Now, if I were a blackbelt, I would have crushed his phone, at the very least, without worrying about what he could do to me.[/QUOTE]

Go get the manager. Your response would have landed you in jail with an assault charge.

[QUOTE]I wouldn't want to fight someone with a gun or a knife, who was a gang member or some type of criminal. But, of course, I would like to be able to enjoy my movie. I hope you understand where I am coming from, now. I don't expect my daughter to be fighting serial killers or terrorists or people like that, just people more or less like herself, who are basically civilized, but trying to take advantage of the fact that she is a girl, and a small one, at that. And, I am not thinking only of right now, but of when she is an adult (16 and up). At this moment, if anyone attacked her in school, she wouldn't have to defend herself. Her whole class would do that for her. She's been with most of these kids 4 years or more and is good friends with almost each and every one. Besides, she isn't the kind of kid that gets into trouble. I always ask every teacher, mid-year, if my daughter is ever in trouble and always the teacher looks at me as if I were crazy. So, no, I don't think my daughter would normally be in trouble, and I certainly don't expect her to get stabbed, shot, etc.

It's just that I don't want her being bullied by people like the guy with the cell-phone in the movie theatre.
[/QUOTE]

Fair enough. Keep her in MA. the training will instill in her an air of confidence. Bullies almost always pick on the insecure.

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#133129 - 04/22/04 03:28 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Anpadh:
Now, if I were a blackbelt, I would have crushed his phone, at the very least, without worrying about what he could do to me.[/QUOTE]

Your perception of what a black belt is and can do is completely far off from reality.

Raul

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#133130 - 04/22/04 04:18 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
I suggest you get counseling. You have a lot of anger and resentment built up.

If one of our students ever hit someone because they insulted them, I am sure the instructors would have to reevaluate whether they would be allowed to train anymore. Also, that is called assault-it is a criminal action, depending on injury caused-you could get time in prison.

I have trained for a number of years-I will spar or step onto the mat or into a ring with anyone(not that I would win). Out in the real world, you bet your ass I would run.

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#133131 - 04/22/04 09:37 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
You've been given some excellent advice from most of the others here!

A black belt is not the be-all and end-all, it merely shows that the person has learnt some skills and can apply them in the dojo. What happens outside the dojo can be a different scenario however most of us here have learnt how to avoid trouble and conflict through our MA.

I think the main thing is that both yourself and your daughter realise what good things she has gained from learning MA and self defence and that this may give her the chance of survival in a situation where an untrained person probably would not.

There are no guarantees in this world however learning to save your own life is one skill that every kid should learn along with first aid. If it involves avoiding contact with the wrong people then it has paid for itself over and over.

Teaching kids and adults to be aware of situations where they could be attacked [and what to do of they are] is one of the most important lessons they can learn.

Encourage your daughter to enjoy her training and learn as much as possible. Why don't you join up yourself and learn at the same time? Then you will gain an understanding of what MA training can bring to your life.

As the others have already said, most of us have learnt to avoid a conflict, and the women amongst us know from experience how difficult it can be to fight a "friendly" male attacker. ..

if the instructor has taught that black belt = invincibility then he is very wrong in his approach. Yes she may be able to fight off one small attacker but how will she fare with 5 or 6 determined ones?? Or a larger one?

When I have been grappling or sparring the younger kids, I can only hit them with about 1/3 of my strength otherwise they get knocked over and hurt. Ditto that for the grappling, I have more strength in my arms than they do in their legs... If I were a large man then this would be even worse for them.

One of the top fighters at our dojo was attacked by 5 larger bullys of a similar age [16] demanding money and her jewellery. She ended up being severely beaten up because 4 of them held her down while the 5th kicked the cr@p out of her and tore her hair out... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/mad.gif[/IMG]

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#133132 - 04/23/04 01:54 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
You're right. I am angry and resentful that I was not allowed to watch a movie in peace, as I would have been able to do had I been bigger or better trained. Also, I very much doubt that taking away someone's cell-phone from him (or even breaking it)would have landed me in jail for assault. As to walking away from insults, I have been doing that all of my life, and I'm tired of it.

And, although all ofyou advocate it, I am really not certain how many of you would really walk away from a situation in which you felt in control. Besides, you are all conveniently ignoring the fact that it is not POSSIBLE to walk away from every situation. You meet the same kids in school, every day. If you work, you meet the same people at work, everyday. It's always easier to give up and give in than to do anything to solve one's problems, perhaps, but I prefer to be proactive than simply just give up every time.

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#133133 - 04/23/04 02:54 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
CanuckMA Offline
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Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 570
Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
Taking the phone is theft, breaking it is destruction of property, and the resulting scuffle is assault.

Nothing comes of violence. A large number of us have been in violent confrontations. I'll bet that most of us relive the incidents trying to find out what could have been done to walk away.

By being more aware of your surroundings and avoiding dangerous situations, you can avoid 99% of potential confrontations.

Your daughter is in grade 3-4? If she is being bullied, the solution is not physical violence, that will get her expelled. Talk to the school authorities.

As someone else said, seek counseling. You have a lot of misdirected anger and issues to work through. Talk to a professional before your anger consumes your daughter.

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#133134 - 04/23/04 03:30 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
We're basically going around in circles here. I've actually said that my daughter is not being bullied right now. I've also said that I don't expect MA training to make her a superhero. Since most people have not read or understood either of these statements despite my saying them repeatedly, I suppose I will continue to get responses that continue to ignore what I am saying. Not everyone has ignored my statements. I don't remember everyone's names right now, but JohnL, wadwoman, Yoseikan, and a few others come to mind, who have actually read and responded to what I AM saying rather than to what I am NOT saying.

As to anger, well, I admit I do feel angry at times. Perhaps none of you have ever felt this emotion, or you have run to a counselor at the first sign of anger -- justifiable or not. When someone is preventing me -- on purpose -- from doing something I have every right to do (such as watching a movie, in peace), that makes me angry with that person, and I believe that my anger is not misidirected. Now, if I were angry at someone else than the person creating the disturbance, certainly, that would be misdirected.

Perhaps the rest of the world lives in a Zen-like state where nobody feels any anger, hatred, joy, sorrow, ecstasy, etc. and I am alone in having any emotions at any time. Somehow, I don't think that is true.

The implicit belief of many (not all)respondents here seems to be that the only way to live is to run away from trouble and never to face one's problems. At the slightest sign of emotion, it appears, one must either get counseling or Prozac. I don't advocate violence and neither am I a violent person. This is part of the reason that I have ensured that my daughter receives MA training -- that she can get OUT of trouble, when it happens. You can only run so far and so often. There comes a point when the fastest runner in the world, even one on Prozac, has to turn around and face his problems.

Do you really believe I don't know what can get people into trouble and what cannot and does not? How many people do YOU know who have gone to jail for taking away a cell-phone, momentarily, when a person was being disruptive, purposely, by using that phone? Do you really BELIEVE that it amounts to stealing? Do you think any policeman or judge would believe that, for a second? I have seen kids throw ice in a theatre and hurt someone with it and not go to jail for it! I've had my stereo actually stolen from my car, and the culprits did not go to jail, even though they were caught. So, please, let's get real here.

On a gentler note, I do appreciate the advice about the chuks and the clarifications about what would work in a dojo as against what would work on the street. It has clarified certain things for me, in re MA training. For instance, I now understand why Krav Maga training is more effective on the street, than Tae Kwan Do training. The same school teaches both, and I wasn't sure which one I should enroll for, but now I do.

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#133135 - 04/23/04 05:00 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Yoseikan Student Offline
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Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Anpadh:
The implicit belief of many (not all)respondents here seems to be that the only way to live is to run away from trouble and never to face one's problems. At the slightest sign of emotion, it appears, one must either get counseling or Prozac. I don't advocate violence and neither am I a violent person. This is part of the reason that I have ensured that my daughter receives MA training -- that she can get OUT of trouble, when it happens. You can only run so far and so often. There comes a point when the fastest runner in the world, even one on Prozac, has to turn around and face his problems.

Do you really believe I don't know what can get people into trouble and what cannot and does not? How many people do YOU know who have gone to jail for taking away a cell-phone, momentarily, when a person was being disruptive, purposely, by using that phone? Do you really BELIEVE that it amounts to stealing?
[/QUOTE]

An e.g.

I get cut up in my car by idiot at round about.

I blast horn and give finger.

He pulls over, so do I.

I'm trained hes not.

I smash him up.

I get charged with ABH or GBH or section 18 wounding, so on so forth.

Or I can let him cut me up.

Same goes for the cinema incident.

I grab phone - initate confrontation.

We argue, He grabs for phone, I shove, he tries to punch me, I smash him up.

Is it worth 5 years in jail?

No.

Prosecuting council makes me into superman because I train.

Yes the jury would convict, yes the judge would sentance.

Goodbye life.

Also, in fairness you are being horribly inconsistant. I appreciate you have dropped the idea of building the chucks, but you did want to give your child a weapon with two 12 inch blades for situations that you now describe as; quote: 'teacher got to close' or an older girl tries to bully her. It really doesn't make a lot of sense.

Yes if your back is up against the wall and you are in real fear for your or others personal safety, then let fly with everything you have got.

But this whole standing up for yourself thing never walking/running away is a nonsense fostered on society by the need to preserve ego, or peer pressure, pride etc. etc.

Alec


[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 04-23-2004).]

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#133136 - 04/24/04 10:45 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Alec,

There is no real inconsistency in what I have said. Yes, I did want to give her an impressive weapon because, when faced with overwhelming force, nothing less than a display of equally overwhelming force will persuade a person to back off. It's doubtful that a person bigger than her would back off if he thought that all he had to do was to grab a small, blunt, wooden stick. But, when he knows there are a couple of really big, sharp knives in there, too, it changes the equation, somewhat. Most people aren't quite willing to wrap their fingers around a sharp knife-edge.

The whole idea is that she would not have to use the weapon, but that if ever she did, it better be something unique and very powerful. The uniqueness could throw the person off-balance, somewhat, and the power should help to dissuade the person from continuing to attack. At the same time, I don't want to give her a gun, for several reasons, the main one being that I don't believe in guns. The main reason I dislike guns is that they are too easy. You can stand a thousand feet away from someone and still kill them, with a gun. This means that, in a moment of pique, you could fire a gun, with fatal results. To use a chuk, you have to be pretty close to the other person and you get to observe the damage you are doing, second by second, and you can stop when it's enough. Yes, I know, you can kill people with a nunchuk. You can also kill a person with a paperclip, if you know which pressure point to hit. Still, to my mind, a nunchuk is a far less dangerous weapon than a gun.

In any case, I have never advocated violence. I just feel that there is a median path -- one that does not involve running away or hitting the other person with a nuclear bomb. Most people here seem to disagree that a median path exists. If that's really true, it's sad, because it means that one can never live one's life in a self-respecting manner, no matter what. All you can do is to run, in any and every situation. If someone insults you, beats you, rapes you, robs you, etc. the best defense, apparently, is to do nothing, never to act, only to react and to react only with fear and cowardice.

Despite the advice to that effect, I very much doubt that anyone who has given that advice ahs actually ever followed it, in their lives. I don't know how well-trained people are, who have responded to me, but I can bet that a strong, well-trained person, has never let others walk over him/her, all day, every day.

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#133137 - 04/24/04 01:18 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Yoseikan Student Offline
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Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
I'd like to address all of your post, but honestly I don't think I'm able.

Basically I'm like

'Its soooo not like that man!'.

and your like:

'it is'.

Doesn't get us very far. Whilst I can't fault your step by step reasoning, in my humble opinion, what you say and its implications are naive at best and dangerous at worst.

That is just my opinion and there is no personal offence attached to it.

I think the premise from which you argue is deeply flawed.

I will address this much. There is a vast ground between walking/running away and fighting.

There are a whole LOAD of other options. I'm ripping off a man called Geoff Thompson (UK self defence dude) here, but the 'art of fighting without fighting' is something I take seriously, and I do believe that I have avoided violent confrontation in the past because of it.

Most people don't want to fight and if you give them an option not to they won't. Even if they want to there can still be ways out. Its a question of posturing or of giving them loopholes of escape - so they can 'choose' not to fight. Perhaps a situation will allow you to trigger the 'flight', out of the 'flight or fight' response, with superior aggression or limited physical contact. Talking situations down, or your way out of them. Theres a vast amount of literature on avoiding situations where violence becomes an option.

I'd elaborate, but I'm painfully aware that I'm ill qualified to do so.

Sometimes you can't not fight or run. But in many cases its vastly unlikely that you will NEED to fight in middle class suburbia or even many other parts of the world, IF you are aware of your surroundings and other people.

I strongly believe carrying a weapon is foolhardy. You are breaking the law, raising the stakes, and introducing a weapon into a situation of which you have limited control. Its bad news in my book. But then some disagree, and I understand the point of view that for self preservation you need to counter violence with greater violence.

But thats just it. A weapon is an emenation of an intent to do another harm. Its a violent thing.

As for guns being 'easy', yes they are. Much more effective. Like, way off the scale effective. You can't fight it. If you want self defence like that - get your daughter a gun, get the proper licencing, get her proper instruction and training in the use of a handgun. Its so not something I'd ever do, but I can appreciate a reasonable person might.

Alec.

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#133138 - 04/24/04 01:24 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
CanuckMA Offline
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Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 570
Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
Physical combat is an absolute last resort. Never initiate. Always look for a way to just walk away. If some a**hole insults me, what do you think I care what he thinks of me whan I ignore him and walk away. If somebody pulls a knife on me and wants my wallet, I'll give hime the 10 bucks in there. Until somebody initiates violence on me, I will not initiate violence.

Remember, The act of physical contact is assault. Putting your hand on a stranger's shoulder can be considered assault.

Also, although the exact wording changes between jurisdictions, you generally have to prove 2 things to claim self defense. One, you felt in imminent danger of physical harm. Two, you used the minimum amount of force to disengage and walk away. Failure to prove either of these will get you convicted. Consider this, We meet in a halway, I stand in front of you. You say 'move or i'll move you'. Whatever happens after that, you are the instigator.

Chill man.

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#133139 - 04/25/04 03:30 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
ASSAULT. (a) A person commits an offense if
the person:
(1) intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly causes
bodily injury to another, including the person's spouse;
(2) intentionally or knowingly threatens another with
imminent bodily injury, including the person's spouse; or
(3) intentionally or knowingly causes physical
contact with another when the person knows or should reasonably
believe that the other will regard the contact as offensive or
provocative.-Teaxs penal code

Pay special attention to #3-contact that is considered by the touchee as offensive or provacative.

THEFT. (a) A person commits an offense if he
unlawfully appropriates property with intent to deprive the owner
of property.
(b) Appropriation of property is unlawful if:
(1) it is without the owner's effective consent-Texas penal code

Taking someone's cell phone from them definitely fits theft description. Could also be robbery,if during the act you use threat of violence,violence or cause any injury-robbery is a felony.

CRIMINAL MISCHIEF. (a) A person commits an
offense if, without the effective consent of the owner:
(1) he intentionally or knowingly damages or destroys
the tangible property of the owner;
(2) a Class B misdemeanor if the amount of pecuniary
loss is $50 or more but less than $500;
CLASS B MISDEMEANOR. An individual adjudged
guilty of a Class B misdemeanor shall be punished by:
(1) a fine not to exceed $2,000;
(2) confinement in jail for a term not to exceed 180
days; or
(3) both such fine and confinement.

-Texas penal code

Destroying their cell phone is class b misdemeanor, means jail time and a fine.

So, for one little inconvenience you have racked up 3 seperate criminal charges and possibly a felony.
Is it worth it in the long run, for a few seconds of satisfaction?

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#133140 - 04/26/04 09:38 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
OK. My point is simple. My daughter must be able to stand up for herself. Yes, of course, where possible, confrontation, especially physical confrontation should be avoided. But when it is not avoidable, her attitude should not contradict her training. If someone, in short, is trying to intimidate her, she should be able to intimidate right back. If it ends there, great. If it doesn't, she should be (psychologically) able to use her training to get out of a bad situation.

The thrust of everyone's argument, on this board, seems to be that MA training is pointless and/or dangerous, but guns are fine. I am sorry, but I so completely disagree with that, I don't even know where to begin. To me, the whole point of learning MA is to learn to defuse a situation BEFORE it becomes deadly. If you have to knock someone out, or break his arm to do that, it is OK. It is better than killing the other person, or risking death just because you are too afriad to take direct action WHEN NECESSARY. And, yes, I have watched Enter the Dragon, too, where Bruce Lee demonstrates the art of fighting without fighting. I have seen similar scenes in Chinese and Indian movies also. But, bear in mind, in every case, the person who refuses to fight does not FEAR his opponent. There is a great difference between refusing to fight because it is pointless and refusing to fight because you are a coward, and all you can do is either run away or kill an unarmed person, with your gun.

I have said this before, and I will say it again: The best fighter is the one who is the most intelligent. Intelligence, to me, means knowing how much of your resources to expend on a given situation. Obviously, the most efficient way of fighting is to create the least risk to yourself, for the least amount of time. Creating least risk, to me, includes not getting into trouble after the fight is over, too.

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#133141 - 04/26/04 09:44 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
As to the whole thing about grabbing the cell-phone, it was theoretical, to start with. But, from what I am hearing, anytime someone's girlfriend/boyfriend snatches away the other person's phone, they will go to prison, for robbery, perhaps even armed robbery, if they are carrying a pen-knife or a sharp toothpick. Same thing with touching. If you are touched by someone standing in line behind you, in a movie theatre box office, as long as you FEEL threatened, you can send the other person to jail. Yeh. Sure.

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#133142 - 04/26/04 10:31 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
CanuckMA Offline
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Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 570
Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
Running away from a physical confrontation is NOT cowardice. I am sorry that you seem to misunderstand us. Your posts have always revolved around options for physical confrontation, we are stating that unless your life is threatened or you are assaulted, you walk away.

And yes, a stranger might very well lay charges in that incident. I would.

Some of us here train to be professional fighters, some are LEOs or work in the security industry. Some of us train for the enjoyment. ALL of us will avoid a confrontation like the plague.

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#133143 - 04/26/04 11:24 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Canuck,

Obviously, everyone AVOIDS confrontation. My question has always been, what to do when the confrontation cannot be avoided. The responses I have gotten mostly say to either let the pther person get away with whatever it is, or to shoot the other person. I find neither option acceptable.

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#133144 - 04/26/04 12:40 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Bollocks. I give up.

Mate, you dunno what you are talking about.

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#133145 - 04/26/04 04:38 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
javaman Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 179
Loc: calgary, alberta, canada
The bottom line is this;
Martial Arts training will teach you how to fight, but having training is no excuse or reason to fight.

And what this all comes down to, is that you were asking advice on how to best construct an illegal, concealable, deadly weapon; for a child to carry!

That is ridiculous and I hope for her safety and for everyone around her, you do not do that.

If you still insist she needs a weapon, give her a kubotan, and a cell-phone. A cell phone can be used to call for police, ambulance ECT. And yes I know it won't work in all situations, probably in most situations, but it couldn't hurt. Even calling for help after a situation has ended is always a good idea. If she does end up hurting anyone seriously, ever, for any reason, legitimate or not, always make sure help arrives; After looking after her own safety of course. That is just the decent human being thing to do. It would probably be a good idea to call a lawyer at that point too.

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#133146 - 04/27/04 10:47 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Giving her a cell-phone is a very practical suggestion, in its way, but not really possible. Her school does not make it illegal to carry pictures of guns and/or dead people shot by guns (a boy in her first grade class used to bring such pictures to school almost every day). However, it IS illegal to carry a cell-phone, even on a field trip, even when it is programmed only to call 911 and the parents, and blocked from receiving any calls from anyone except the parents.

As to the whole non-violence thing I am not only tired of the advice but I find it insulting and arrogant. Why do you assume that you alone are aware of the principles of non-violence, especially when I have said again and again that I am a non-violent person? Why do you feel that you have the right to preach to me, especially when I have said repeatedly I don't want or need to learn about non-violence, especially as I am already leading a very non-violent life?

I only asked a qusetion about designing nunchuks. When I realized it was illegal, I said I would not do it. Is this, to you, the behavior of a violent person? Do you think I know nothing about the history and/or use of the martial arts, when it was invented in my country of origin, where I was born and brought up? Are you so arrogant as to believe that you have the right to tell me not to defend myself and/or my daughter? One person said that it was illegal to provoke a person and/or his/her spouse? So, am I to understand it is legal to provoke a daughter, a friend, a grandparent, or anyone else I love? I should stand by and whistle, while someone I love is being attacked or provoked? I have asked repeatedly if anyone has ever, in actual fact, backed down from a situation where they felt they were physically more powerful than the provoker, and nobody has responded to it.

The bottom line, then, is that you probably have no experience of being victimized, and that is why it is so easy to advise someone else to allow themselves to be victimised.

As to martial arts, remember that it is not simply an art, but a MARTIAL art. The word martial comes from Mars, god of war. It was originally designed to be used by unarmed Buddhist monks to physically overcome bandits. Bandits are usually not polite enough to attack one at a time. Therefore, if someone has become a martial arts expert and is unable to defend himself/herself against multiple attackers, ON THE STREET, then that person has only learned the moves, not the art itself. This is similar to having learned the steps to a dance without ever having danced. A good dancer can dance with more than one partner at a time, and a good martial artist can deal with more than one attacker at a time. The martial arts are INTENDED to be used in war. There is no such thing as a totally defensive weapon or training. Anything that can be used defensively can also be used offensively.

Perhaps some of you need to be aware of the history, applications, and purposes of MA training. I am myself perfectly well aware of it, and of many other facts pertaining to the martial arts and also the history and applications of the principles of non-violence. I live in a country that is home to Martin Luther King, Jr. I am intimately familiar with the lives of Christ, Buddha, Gandhi, Bruce Lee, Socrates, and many other men of peace and wisdom.

The violence with which people have addressed me, on this board has convinced me that few, if any of them, are truly non-violent in their day-to-day behavior and attitudes. It is simply a politically-correct stance they wish to put on display. I exclude from consideration javaman, JohnL and wadwoman, who have been consistently polite, helpful, and non-aggressive in their responses to me.

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#133147 - 04/27/04 05:44 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
smgj Offline
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Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 4
If I may jump in with my 2 cents.
I have 11 year and 7 year old daughters who are learning martial arts, and I started taking classes a year ago as an overweight 39 year old mom who had never been able to defend myself and wouldn't have had the courage to even try. I think that the martial arts can be very useful just by enhancing kids' physical self confidence.

My older daughter is now in middle school. I'm not concerned about bullies at school, she'd probably be expelled if she hit them. Not worried about the guy with the cell phone at the movies. She can just put up with it. But now that she walks home alone from her school bus stop, I do worry about kidnapping. If you look at recent news articles on kidnapping attempts, you see that often kids who do *something* do manage to escape. One of the reasons I want my girls to learn Martial Arts is so that hopefully they won't freeze in such a situation--if they don't manage to run away first. That *something* probably won't include taking the kidnapper down, but may include kicking, biting, windmilling the arms, things like that. The physical self confidence that MA brings might help.

The second situation she may encounter in a few years is one that, again, she probably can't walk away from. That is date rape. Chances are, any guy trying this isn't a hardened criminal out to kill her, just an insensitive, overly hormonal teenager or young adult. If she is able to get a punch or kick in, it may just bring home the message that she is serious about saying NO and stop the attempt in its tracks.

Neither of my girls are going to go around being agressive, fighting, etc. But because they know they could defend themselves, at least they won't feel quite so vulnerable and scared all the time. Aware and cautious, yes. But fearful, no.

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#133148 - 04/27/04 10:36 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
CanuckMA Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 570
Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
Anpadh,

The width of the gulf between provocation and violence is so wide, you could pass the 7th fleet through. It is perhaps a failure of the medium of communication, but the overwhelming impression I, and it seems many others, are getting is that you see violence as an adequate response to what is perceived as provocation (some anyoing jerk, an insult, etc). We kept trying to tell you that that is not what we study MA for. Until you are in a situation where violence has started, you always look for a non-violent way out. I'm 43, I've resorted to my training ONCE in my life, I've walked away from situations more times than I care to remember.

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#133149 - 04/28/04 03:11 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Canuck,

Common sense should tell you that if I were a truly violent person at heart, I would not be spending my time DISCUSSING it, but doing it and would be probably in jail or even in the electric chair, by now.

If you want to know what my take on violence is, here it is. I feel that to respond to violence by increasing security, building more bombs, etc. is completely wrong, on an individual as at a governmental level. The only real way of decreasing violence is to respond by attempting to remove the reason for violence. For instance, if people are being robbed all the time, it is usually because the robbers are financially insecure. The solution would be to make sure that most people have jobs that provide them with enough income to lead a decent life. There would still be people who would rob for the thrill or the fun of it, but that would be a relatively small number, compared to those who rob to survive. So, the only way to combat violence in an effective way, really, is to create a world in which it is not only unnecessary, but counter-productive.

So long as this state of affairs does not exist, however, I believe one must be prepared to defend oneself. To be always afraid of the criminal, in my opinion, is a bad idea. Such an attitude not only encourages criminal behavior but simultaneously DISCOURAGES law-abiding citizens from helping each other. Look around you. All the images and symbols you see are of vigilantes. Whether it is on TV, in movies, or in real life, the people who are admired and who are role models to the general public are individuals who take charge of their own lives and make their own decisions and defend themselves to the end, right or wrong. Ask yourself whom most people admire more -- the Justice Department, for going after Bill Gates, or Bill Gates, for defending himself against the Justice Department, successfully. On TV, you have Angel, Charmed, Buffy, Xena, and Hercules on the one hand, and shows like Law and Order and NYPD Blue on the other hand. In all of these shows it is the individuals who take risks and put their careers on the line, who are admired, not the ones who push paper and blindly follow every rule. From Superman to Batman to the X-Men to the Punisher, the most popular heroes are always vigilantes.

I have never advocated violence and I never will. I don't feel that violence is a solution to the problems of the world. Yet, I do feel that there are times when a violent response is not only an appropriate one but even the best one. I think that, to believe that one must either build nuclear bombs or simply accept one's fate, are both extremist views.

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#133150 - 04/29/04 09:58 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
IRONMAN Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/03
Posts: 68
Loc: STATEN ISLAND, NY, UNITED STAT...
if giving your daughter a weapon is that important to u when she is old enough buy her a can of mace or pepper spray. (nice and simple)

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#133151 - 04/29/04 10:14 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Ironman,

I agree that a can of pepper spray can be a great deterrent.

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#133152 - 05/22/04 02:01 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Anpadh,

The guys here have stated their points suffieciently and yet I understand where you come from.

I was picked on myself when I was younger and saw martial artists from the movies as an inspiration.

But the more i learned, the more i realized that the movie moves are coreographed scenarios and sadly so are dojo scenarios.

But not to be disillusioned from the martial artists I saw the principles in them even from the movies. For example, even Jackie chan's charcters see the difficulty of height and strength differences. Old masters in the movies (Miyagi of the Karate Kid for example) keep their MA edge by concealing their skill until the last moment.

To publicize your daughter's training would make the bullies aware of their inadequacies and compensate by fighting dirty.

Again don't take her out of training. The martial arts are more than moves. It is a way of thinking. As stated earlier one may simply walk away from a fight or avoiding places where violence is most likely to occur. Part of the MA is situation appraisal. Part is knowing yourself and your enemy (by Sun Tzu).

Better than giving her a weapon, she must learn to see weapons in everything her books, her pen, her umbrella, her watch etc. In other words presence of mind and ingenuity.

And more i agree that you musn't let your fear deprive her of her childhood. Read on the lives of Martial artists and soldiers, right when they were at the peak of their skills is when they learned that violence was never the way. To engage in a fight was to them a personal failure to control the outcome of the situation.
http://www.chronique.com/Library/Chivalry/code.htm

the link is a guide to how martial artists must live. read "knight" as martial artist.

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#133153 - 05/22/04 02:13 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anonymous
Unregistered


By the way I do believe in walking away but giving the wallet or phone to the mugger is no guarantee of staying alive. Don't give it, he'll stab you to get it. Give it, he'll stab you to keep you from reporting him. That's the reality of life where I come from.

Once threatened with death my philosophy is injure, don't hurt. Hurts increase rage and adrenaline, injury incapacitates.

But after such confrontations (i've lived through my fair share) I think of how to avoid it not how to bust them up better next time. Next time they'd know i can fight next time I could get killed.

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#133154 - 05/31/04 03:05 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have 3 children - all in MA. My older son holds a black belt in Tae Kwon Do and is currently studying with a new karate dojo at college. My daughter has recently started karate, and my younger son studies jujitsu. I believe the greatest skills MA teaches is that of self-respect, self-confidence, and self-awareness. It is often said that attackers look for easy prey. Those who have studied MA generally carry themselves in a manner that communicates to others that they are NOT an easy target.

My daughter is 14 and has started a part-time job. I know too that she will date some day (even though her father wishes that that could wait until college!). She has already learned many escape techniques from her younger brother, and I feel confident that if a romantic encounter became uncomfortable for her, she could back up her "no" with a pressure point move. However, we (her parents) are placing a great deal of emphasis on making smart choices long before things reach that point - who are you hanging out with? are others with you? where will you be going? when will you be home? Of course, these are the same questions we asked our older son each time he went out as well.

MA is a great thing for anyone to learn. It's also important for us as parents to remember that our past is our past, not our child's future. I hope your daughter continues with her training as a means of self-discipline and self-awareness. To learn MA for any other reason is counter-productive.

If you want to find an appropriate gift for her when she earns her black belt, maybe a cell phone would be best (get the pay as you go kind so that she knows she can't just use it to talk to her friends!). Let her know how much she means to you and that you want her to call you whenever she finds herself in an uncomfortable situation. I think she will find it a very adult gift, and carrying that around in her pocket might be a constant reminder for her to avoid bad situations.

Good luck to you!

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#133155 - 06/01/04 10:20 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Thanks for all of the input. I respect where you are all coming from, and I value your suggestions. Ihave already implemented some of them (such as teaching my daughter to be aware of her surroundings) and will probably implement more, as she grows older (such as advising her to not make friends with drug addicts).

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#133156 - 06/08/04 11:23 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
One of the objections I have heard, in ergard to training as a fighter, is that all dojo scenarios are artificial and require compliance. I agree. But I feel that it is impossible to TRAIN anyone in anything other than controlled conditions. Does that mean that all training in all fields is basically useless, as it is done under controlled conditions and not in real-life scenarios? For instance, in the armed forces, soldiers are trained to shoot at targets not at living people. True, actuall battle experiences are invaluable. But, would one want to TRAIN soldiers by having them just go out and get shot? Wouldn't they need to be trained under conditions that are artificial and where there is compliance?

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#133157 - 06/11/04 12:32 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
DragonFire1134 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1479
Loc: Theodore (mobile), Alabama
They have all kinds of differant shapes and sizes in regard to nunchucku. I've seen a light weight metal pair once, the chucks were very small, I'd say about 6 or 7 inches with the diameter being about 1/2 inch, the chain was 8 inches. Which you can adjust the length to whatever you want.
Onc of the chucks were hollow and the chain could fit inside you could screw the chucks together and it made a solid club. You could easily hide it just about anywhere.

Personally I like the idea of women carrying mace. Not in a purse though because it would take to long to get to know what I mean. Spray in the eyes, kick to the nuts, and run like hell in case of any trouble.

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#133158 - 06/11/04 01:42 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Yojimbo558 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/00
Posts: 253
Loc: Marina, Ca. USA
Anpadh,

What I find amusing is your repeated statements of I'm against violence...when the truth of the matter is that your posts reveal that your only against it because you view yourself as being untrained & out of shape. You remind me of a kid who went from being bullied to the mindset of "Now it's my turn." And what's sad is that you fail to see that.

Your movie scenario is ridiculous. I took my wife to see the movie "Troy" a few weeks ago, in our row was an inconsiderate ass who was making noises and distracting us and others. It was not my Martial Art training nor my years in the Marines that prompted me to go over and tell him to be quiet...it was my desire to enjoy the movie with my wife. Had he not complied, I would not have beaten the crap out of him...I would have gotten the Usher and management would have presented him with the option of either being considerate or tossing him out of the theatre.

When a girl was molested in a massage class that I attended, I detained the pervert until the police showed up to take him away...certain situations are appropriate & others are not.

I've said it before & I'll say it again...in an encounter, you've no idea who you're facing. It could be a Golden Gloves Boxer, a Division 1 Wrestler, someone who's proficient in Martial Arts or someon who's drug enhanced.

There's also the matter of not knowing whether the person who's annoying you has a gun or knife that you don't know about.

Others have mentioned that were your daughter to pull nunchuck's or another weapon, that her opponent might repond inkind with a gun.

The other scenario that no-one has mentioned that if a cop were to pull over your daughter for something and discovered that she had a weapon that she was attempting to conceal...she would find herself facing the officer at gun point.

The Officer would have no way of knowing that the weapon was there because you gave it to her for protection. All they would no is that someone they pulled over has a weapon, was attempting to conceal it and if she's smart and doesn't panic...she'll avoid getting shot.

Whereupon you'll be getting a call from her from prison asking you to post bail for her both having a felony weapon & her trying to have concealed it.

Eric

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#133159 - 06/15/04 12:17 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Dragon Fire, thanks for your suggestions, in regard to the nunchuks.

Yojimbo, I suggest that you read what I have actually written, rather than jumping to conclusions on the basis of what you have read in posts by other people. I am tired of addressing the same (non) issues over and over again. I prefer to respond to people who can actually READ.

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#133160 - 06/17/04 02:21 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
I'd like to thank everyone for their suggestions. However, I've found another board on this forum that addresses my needs more precisely and with less anger than I have found here.

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#133161 - 07/01/04 09:45 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anonymous
Unregistered


OK, first of all, yes the design would work, but legally it would not work. It would be nice as a neat decoration on the wall or shelf but not to carry around. You could go to an online store and buy her a really nice sword or other weapone of choice. It could even be a nice gi or design to add to her gi. If you want her to feel confident buy her some pepper spray. If you want her to feel more than confident for her sake keep her in MA. For your sake if you were a blackbelt and have gone through the training you would not have even thought about cruching the guys phone. This is a careless act of anger and if you were a blackbelt you would have gone through the discipline if taught to not do that. I would have simply asked him to walk out of the theatre to talk if he needed, but not while the movie was going. if he had a problem with that, as most would, then he might confront you, this is where your MA traing comes in handy. you mentioned that you want the element of suprise but you would suprise him enough when you kiss his ass all over the theatre. He would then be the attacker if he came at you, not you acting like a jerk and crushing the phone.
I think that sums up everything.

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#133162 - 07/01/04 09:46 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anonymous
Unregistered


OK, first of all, yes the design would work, but legally it would not work. It would be nice as a neat decoration on the wall or shelf but not to carry around. You could go to an online store and buy her a really nice sword or other weapone of choice. It could even be a nice gi or design to add to her gi. If you want her to feel confident buy her some pepper spray. If you want her to feel more than confident for her sake keep her in MA. For your sake if you were a blackbelt and have gone through the training you would not have even thought about cruching the guys phone. This is a careless act of anger and if you were a blackbelt you would have gone through the discipline if taught to not do that. I would have simply asked him to walk out of the theatre to talk if he needed, but not while the movie was going. if he had a problem with that, as most would, then he might confront you, this is where your MA traing comes in handy. you mentioned that you want the element of suprise but you would suprise him enough when you kiss his ass all over the theatre. He would then be the attacker if he came at you, not you acting like a jerk and crushing the phone.
I think that sums up everything.

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#133163 - 02/22/08 01:35 PM Re: Designing nunchuks. [Re: Anpadh]
Dannyl_K Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 35
If you have a concealed weapons permit, does that also constitute nunchucks or just for firearms?

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#133164 - 02/22/08 04:21 PM nunchaku [Re: JohnL]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Yes, you will run into leagal problems carrying these. It is after all a "weapon". It's not like a cane or using your keys or some other "legal to carry".

I'd also be concerned about "over confidence" in being a 10 year old black belt and her trying to use a weapon that will only get taken away from her. I can't imagine that a 10 year old can be a "black belt" in anything, let alone use such a weapon effectively. If anything, this may end up encouraging her to stay in a situation that she should have run away from.

Awareness training and other self defense to help kids escape from a dangerous situation is good. But giving them black belts and weapons training just seems detrimental.

If she already carries a house key, teacher her to use it to poke eyes, etc. but also reinforce the sitauations where she should try that. Always try to run away first and never try to fight unless actually abducted. You can also teach her to use a pen, jewelry and other such things.

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#133165 - 02/22/08 04:27 PM Re: Designing nunchuks. [Re: JohnL]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
"as I want to make a nunchuk that is designed to hit pressure points, without coming into very close contact with the opponent, who may be armed. "

It would have to be very long. As it is now, using a standard nunchaku has you just about a foot away.

The idea of incorporating the weapon into clothing also comes with a flaw. How do you get it out and snap it together in an instant. If it's a belt, it will take at least a few seconds to recognize the situation, get the belt off and "activate" the weapon.

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