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#133111 - 04/21/04 04:30 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
Raul put it more succinctly than I did-
Training in MA gives you a chance where without it you had no chance. Best advice to anyone-avoid the situation rather than deal with it.

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#133112 - 04/21/04 05:17 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
I must admit I am somewhat disappointed at some of the latest responses. The whole idea (as far as I am concerned) of being trained in MA is that one does not need to run away and that a person is confident enough to DEAL with virtually anyone who tries to intimidate you with sheer size. Running away, to me, is not usually a good option, in what I would call "normal" situations, such as being targeted by bullies in school. If you run away, you continuously get targeted and the consequences of each subsequent encounter are always worse than the previous one. Trust me, I know. I was never one of those people who is a constant victim, though I am shorter and smaller than most people, but, like anyone else, I was bullied in school, occasionally. These types of incidents decreased dramatically, once I learned to execute just ONE simple judo trick.

Yes, I don't want my daughter to beat up people just because she can, but neither do I want her to start running every time someone looks at her aggressively. I honestly don't think she will be called upon to defend herself in a life/death situation, but I do want her to be able to scare away potential bullies by being physically trained, and mentally prepared, to fight.

Perhaps I sound overly-aggressive when I say this, but running away is simply not an option, to me. And I'm saying so despite never having been in a physical fight for the last 25 years AND being totally untrained in any form of self-defense. Still, I must admit I hate being forced to back down against morons who are bigger and stronger, when they are being insulting, just because I can't afford to do so. I need to be around to take care of my daughter, if nothing else, and so I have to be more responsible than I was, as a teenager.

So, the bottom line is that I want my daughter NEVER to back away from a fight, though I would prefer she be able to talk her way out of it as far as possible. But, what I am hearing, here, is that no matter what, the best thing to do is to run. My daughter and I do run a mile every day and she has to be able to run 3 miles in 24 minutes by next year, but if that is all, then why bother with the MA training? I don't mean just her. I mean why train ANYONE in MA, except for police and army and such?

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#133113 - 04/21/04 05:59 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
The point that everyone has been trying to make is that no matter how much training your daughter has, and how good she is in the dojo, the whole purpose of MA training for SELF DEFENCE is simply that.

If the best defence is to run away from a situation your daughter should be encouraged to do so, not forbidden to do so as you have stated.

Her MA training may mean that instead of being killed or severely maimed, she is able to get away from a determined attacker with only minor injuries.

If she develops awareness of the situation and can deal with it accordingly by making her own choices then this is far better than slugging it out with a bloke who may or may not be intending to kill her right from the start.

I'm a pretty strong woman and have done MA for a number of years in multiple disciplines, and have spent a lot of time fighting men and grappling with them and I know from this that their size and physical strength gives them a distinct advantage over me in many situations.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/mad.gif[/IMG]

If I was confronted by an armed attacker that I thought was going to kill me I would be running as fast as my legs would take me!

I would not be sticking around to see if I could outfight him or outgrapple him because I know from experience that it will be very hard for me to get the upper hand unless it is by surprise.

ditto for multiple attackers.

The first thing that we are taught is to try and talk out of the situation and to escape if at all possible. Fighting is the last option when escape and everything else has failed.

My son is in a similar position to your daughter, and of a similar age. He is already pretty adept at swinging his chucks but he certainly won't be carrying them as a concealed weapon when he's out and about.

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#133114 - 04/21/04 06:49 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Oh Anpadh

I know it's difficult to understand. I suggest you read a couple of past threads. One is titled Agism in MA and then take a selection from the self defense section of the forum regarding weapons, both uses and pitfalls.

It may help.

Your assumption that because your daughter is taking a MA and therefore will be able to defend herself is incorrect. MA's get beaten all the time.

What I have found from my training is the following;

1. I appreciate what damage can be done to me and what damage I can do. This is after studying various Martial Arts for some 35 years. It also helps that I am 6'1", male and about 230lbs.

2. I have learnt not to take myself too seriously and keep a sense of humour. I find both of these attributes to be excelent self defense attitudes.

Your daughter is 10 years old. Forget about her needing self defense. If she wants to study a MA, fine. Let her enjoy herself. Let her enjoy herself being what she is.

A kid!

I think you need to deal with your own paranoia before it starts infecting your daughter.

There aren't stick wielding sadists around every conrner. There are not rapists in every elevator lobby.

You have 5-6 years before you really need to consider the subject seriously. I suggest that you take that time to train in a martial art to find out what they can and can't do for you.

In the meantime, if your daughter masters taking down a knife/club wielding adult in less than a second, please let me know. I would travel a long way to be taught that. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Best of luck.

JohnL

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#133115 - 04/21/04 08:01 PM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
John,

I appreciate that you are a trained MA yourself and that there is much I can learn from you while there is little I can teach you. Not being a trained MA myself, I will do my best to describe to you the technique that I saw my daughter and other kids being taught, that resulted in an armed adult being brought down in a second. You can judge for yourself whether or not it would work in a real-life situation. I believe it would, but then, as I said, I am neither a trained MA nor have I ever encountered any serious violence in my life. I saw this training session about 2 months ago, so I may not remember all of the details. Here's the situation: The attacker lunges at the victim, from the front or side, holding a knife or stick. If from the front, the "victim" side-steps, kicks the attacker behind the knee (on the same side that the weapon is), pushes his knuckles into the attacker's throat, as he falls, grabs the attacker's wrist and slices the knife into the attacker's neck. When properly executed, either by an instructor or an advanced student, the entire process takes less than a second. No real strength is required, as there is a pressure point behind the knee (I think) that forces the leg to fold, so that the attacker MUST fall. There did not seem (to me) to be enough time for the attacker to either avoid the move or react to it. I didn't actually time it, but it probably took less than a second, altogether, from start to finish.

I'm sure you are having a little fun at my expense here, as you are probably aware of such techniques already, though I am not. However, since you asked, I described it to you. I don't believe that learning MA makes my daughter Superwoman or Batwoman but I do believe that most people would be ill-advised to attack her, even now, when she does not yet have her black belt. I don't say that nobody could beat her. I wouldn't say that of Bruce Lee. Anybody can be beaten, in the right circumstances, even by an untrained and unarmed person. However, I believe that there is as much chance of anyone like me, for instance, beating up a black belt in any MA, regardless of his/her age, as there is of my being drowned in a can of Pepsi. It's possible, of course, but unlikely.

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#133116 - 04/22/04 02:03 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
still wadowoman Offline
Improved beefier techno-prat

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 3420
Loc: Residence:UK- Heart:Md, USA
My daughter is 9 and a half and has been training in karate under me for 5 years. She has been learning practical (street) self defence for about 3 and a half years. She is very good at what she does for her age and size. At school no one has ever tried to bully her more than once.

However, although she can defend herself well against someone her own size and a little bigger, there is no way she could defend herself against a 16 year old, let alone a full grown man.

By the same token, after 10 years of training, no way would I go toe to toe with a man if I was attacked. I believe my training would give me more chance of escaping relatively unharmed than a untrained woman of equal size, but it does not make me able to take on all comers.

I am afraid that if your daughter's instructor tells you otherwise he is either misleading you or has been sadly misled himself.

We say these things not to make fun of you or your daughter, nor out of any kind of disrespect. We merely state the truth.
Sorry

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#133117 - 04/22/04 07:13 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
CanuckMA Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 570
Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
Anpadh,

We mean no disrespect. However, you are being seriously misled, and/or have watch way too many MA movies. The move you describe only works under controlled situations. It depends on the attacker's knee being bent so that it will fold. Assuming it does fold, the forward momentum will most likely put his throat out of range before it can be struck. I doubt very much that a 10 year old will have enough strength to manipulate a grown man's arm all the way back to his throat to slice it.

The only truly effective defense is running away at the first opportunity.

The class I train with is mostly teenagers of vaious skills and sizes. A couple of months ago, we went through a streetproofing class. After emphasizing the run away aspect, we had the kids practice resistance against a grab. Not active striking only, but things like dropping to the ground to slow down an attack and atract attention. When a young lady ask why not just hit, Sensei asked me to 'kidnap' her. I'm 5'10", 200lbs. She is 14, 5'5" and about 100lbs. She as to be relaxed, not anticipating an attack. I just walked up to her and grabbed her over my shoulder and started carrying her.

The emphasis in MA self defense training is to train to be able to run away. Please do not make your daughter feel so confident that she will try to fight all the time. Your best fight is always the one you avoid.

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#133118 - 04/22/04 07:29 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Anpadh,

There is a massive difference between a dojo scenario, where the attack is preplanned as is the response and the so called 'real world'.

No adrenaline, no fear, no surprise, no unknown situation.

I agree that standing up to bully has its merits. But standing up to a rapist thats twice your size, and three times your strength, when walking home in the dark, after a night out, wearing stiletos and thinking about the boy you just kissed after a having a few drinks..................

Its sooo not the same. Thats why the guys are saying run, learn to be aware, be careful about walking home by yourself, who you socialise with etc. etc.

In the dojo, not only does your daughter know what is coming and what she is expected to do, I cannot believe that the attacker is really trying to hurt her. And if he was he shouldn't be allowed to train. Almost all training (and certainly all training with children), is done with some compliance.

I'm a 20 year old male who's been playing around in the MA for 6 and bit years. I've trained in karate under Instructors who have had to deal with violence in the day to day course of their occupations. I also box competitively.

Faced with (entirely hypothetically!) say a black belt 12 year old girl, I'd pick her up and put her on her head. She WOULD NOT stop me. And I'm only 150 pounds. I don't care if shes trained all her life for 6-8 hours a day.

Faced with a 3rd dan 20 year old woman of average build - if I were the sort of person that was so inclined and motivated - I would be extremely confident in attacking her. I haven't even got a black belt myself. I would have surprise, I'm young, strong for my weight, fit, fast, aggressive.....

The same in reverse. I'd be terrified of a 40 year old 300 pound man that had spent his life doing hard physical labour, and decided when drunk to smash my face in. I'd RUN LIKE HELL. Okay if i can't then yes I'll throw everything I've got at him and convince myself that I've got a real chance. But objectively hes gonna kill me!

Sorry mate, but thats the truth.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Al.

[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 04-22-2004).]

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#133119 - 04/22/04 09:11 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Anpadh Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 162
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
I must say that I am somewhat depressed by what I am reading here. What it seems to come down to is that my daughter is better off being obese than being trained. All of her training in hand-to-hand as well as armed combat is about as effective in a self-defense situation as playing with her Barbies. She doesn't have to learn anything except to squeeze a trigger, run, and be really fat, and neither she nor anyone else needs any kind of training to do any of those things. It would seem that the effectiveness of MA techniques in real-life situations is nothing more than a myth perpetuated by Chinese and Hollywood movies.

I find this really hard to believe but, if it is true, then I will take my daughter out of MA training once she gets her first black belt. So far as I am concerned, she has already benefited in the way I wanted -- namely, to increase her concentration. Other skills, such as learning to play a guitar, or learning to sing, will equally help her concentrate, in the future. MA training, I thought, would help her defend herself, in addition to being focused. But it seems, from what everyone is saying here, that she is better off taking hormones to increase her height and weight than to train in any form of self-defense, unless it is just for fun. Even years of MA training, under the best of instructors, is basically pointless, in any practical sense.

On the other hand, learning to sing will make her a better singer, and learning to play a musical instrument will increase her proficiency in that instrument, over time, with practice. So, aside from the sheer joy of learning something new, there is no practical benefit to learning the martial arts, in the long term. As a system of self-defense it is useless, and the only important physical aspect of it is to run away, for which track and field training is more effective than MA training.

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#133120 - 04/22/04 09:14 AM Re: Designing nunchuks.
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Basically what everyone is saying is that a training scenerio in the dojo with a compliant partner is totally different from a sudden assault from a non-compliant aggressor.

Try it yourself. After your daughter achieves her black belt.... one day at the house suddenly "attack" her. Post your results.

Kind regards,

Raul

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