just sending this message to see if i can get it to post (this is my fourth attempt and so far cannot get the post onto the forum)

I was with the BAMA too. At the end of the day, I felt something was not right. I’m not going to say most things, it’s been posted on here already. I feel I made the right choice in leaving when a great deal of relief swept over me afterwards. Many students I knew in the BAMA had a lot of the concerns as many people and I had so its not just people who have left being critical, I used to talk about the problems with my friends in the BAMA. When we tried to ask questions about what was troubling us we never really got a proper answer and also you felt bad for having questioned Pete Delane.

Most high grades in the academy loved Pete Delane and it was almost eerie the way they talked about him. I can understand their respect for him but he was revered as some sort of God which did actually trouble me a bit. It’s hard to explain why, I guess you had to be there. Also, you were always told about the ‘unpayable debt’ etc and how much should respect Pete Delane but we were TOLD to respect him, not actually think it ourselves. To respect someone you have to respect them, you can’t be told too. (I did however respect my actually sensei, she was a lovely woman and great help to me. That was one of the reasons why I was sad to leave). One reason I couldn’t respect PD was, when I saw him at a seminar, he stopped the whole seminar and told them how crap all other MAs were> People had to put their hand up if they were from another MA (me included) and then he told everyone that why we left was because our other school was crap and didn’t teach proper MA or discipline. That is not why I had left and I’m sure many of the others either. He had never met me yet he told people about my MA background! I think this is a ploy, a power of suggestion as mentioned earlier, which makes people believe his drivel because it is as if he has back-up for it which he doesn’t really, it just seems like it because he says it.

Also, at another seminar we had to stop when he entered the hall and line up along the width of it to hear him speak. One girl who was close to me at the very end of the hall turned her head away from him for a moment because it really hurt your neck to twist it right round and look at him form such an awkward angle and from so far away. He spotted this and sent her out of the hall in front of lots and lots of people for ‘having no discipline’. She was only a girl of about 14 I would say, we had been training all day, he was talking for along time and her neck was hurting. It must have been humiliating for her. I daren’t move my neck after that even though it was hurting and I probably shouldn’t have kept it at that angle. I guess that is one way he exerts his power, by scaring you – slaughter a chicken to train a monkey. I didn’t like that display at all.

Also, I know that if people want to pay the prices that BAMA charge then that is fine but I do have one quibble with the financial side of it. I am still in secondary school and have a Saturday job. I’m saving up for uni and my money is very precious to me. I bought a book from the BAMA costing £60 which PD had written. Now I did agree to buy this book because apparently it was amazing and was so expensive because it was ‘professionally made’. I thought that this was a fair price then. PD obviously had to make a living and he had spent so many man hours on this book and had it made professionally so it was worth the money. However, I felt really conned and disheartened when my book came after I spent a lot of money on it which I worked hard for. It was not professionally made. It was printed on A4 paper with a cheap binder and the front and back covers are photo printer paper (the kind used to print off photos from your computer – it even says ‘HP Invent’ on the back of this paper) so that was the first problem I had with it. Also, a lot of the writing, quite a substantial amount, came from his Zen tapes. I recognised it because we had listened to the tapes many times and even written some of it down. It was exactly the same wording used in his tapes. He had therefore not put much extra work in because he had just copied that stuff. I know he came up with it originally but my point is that it wouldn’t have taken any extra time to write it in the book, therefore shortening the writing time and labour costs. Also, the font is huge with clipart and big gaps making the book quite small if you condensed it. I did feel bad after buying it because I felt as if I had been conned. It mind sound strange to you but I doubt much work was put in to it yet I still had to give more than what it was worth and had been lied to in the process. It especially hit home when your saw PD fly around on his helicopter which I encountered once.

I’m not saying the school does not have positive traits however, but there is always an atmosphere where you feel oppressed and guilty. I think you have to experience it for yourself to truly appreciate it. To me, maybe not to others, it did feel like a religion and if you questioned your God you would feel his wrath. I did talk to others at my time there who felt this way too. You could even sense it in some of them by the way they looked. It really is hard to explain the type of atmosphere there was at seminars etc, you always felt as if you, as the student population, were in the wrong and had to prove yourselves worthy of being taught by such a great man as Pete Delane. I know MAs are built on discipline and respect but I was never shown anytime when I felt respect for PD and you can’t be forced to respect someone, no matter how hard they try.

S

P.S – in regards to the samurai roots things, I was never shown any proof of this even when I asked on numerous occasions. I don’t see the point in lying about it or not answering questions. If it is true then great, but why tell us that’s where our style is from and then not give any details. If you want to keep the samurai roots information for Dan grades then why mention it in the first place? Just something to keep you in suspense I guess, make you feel part of something special. In my opinion, not mentioning your teachers is disrespectful towards them, especially if you are teaching their style.

Please could we have some more info on this.

Is everything PD has said a Lie then ?

If it is how can any student at the school have respect for him ?

Apparantly in his words.
He is very high up in the world of entertainment and has some friends in verry high places. He has confirmed that some of HIS zen teachings are in some block buster movies that he has had some input into.

I guess that is a load of Bullsh1tdo aswell ?

the Ma itself I would say is good, The Bullsh1t and financials behind it all has ruined it.

Looking at the two following extracts from the posts of other contributors:-

No 1)I was at a class with Delane where everyone was isolated, no one there knew anyone else, it was cold, we were left standing around for hours- 'Because his flight from Japan was late.' Everyone is nervous, cold and hungry. Then suddenly he flies in, fancy clothes, two katana, fierce and aggressive, then suddenly warm and fatherly. Then fierce and strict again. A classic push-pull technique that confuses already isolated individuals making them more malleable and trusting.

No 2)Also, at another seminar we had to stop when he entered the hall and line up along the width of it to hear him speak. One girl who was close to me at the very end of the hall turned her head away from him for a moment because it really hurt your neck to twist it right round and look at him form such an awkward angle and from so far away. He spotted this and sent her out of the hall in front of lots and lots of people for ‘having no discipline’. She was only a girl of about 14 I would say, we had been training all day, he was talking for along time and her neck was hurting. It must have been humiliating for her. I daren’t move my neck after that even though it was hurting and I probably shouldn’t have kept it at that angle. I guess that is one way he exerts his power, by scaring you – slaughter a chicken to train a monkey. I didn’t like that display at all.

My question is this, in both instances. Why did you stick around to be insulted like this? From a personal stance in either of the above examples, I would have without any preliminaries and in complete silence, but in a very visible manner obvious to all those there, turned on my heel, grabbed my belongings, exited the building, got into my car and driven to the nearest decent pub for a pint and a meal. I would bet a hell of a lot of others would have followed me out. Anybody fancy a rebellion?

A further quote reads:- They taught in an atmosphere that was lacking in focus,ranging from half time fag breaks,macho attitudes,a common room type social gathering atmosphere,i.e/ "so what were you doing last night then"?

What is particularly 'wrong' with any of the above attributes? Are you some veheminant anti-smoker? everyone I know takes a 'fag-break' both in their working surroundings and in their social life as well. B.A.M.A. Karate, MA, whatever, is only a part of their social structure, there is always therefore a 'social' type atmosphere at any type of gathering. I take it you are a civilian, if you wish to indulge you mind in military type gatherings then 'Join Up', but don't critisise others for enjoying their spare time in their way. If it does not suit you, leave, the same as many are leaving B.A.M.A. in seemingly ever increasing numbers. Who knows, soon there may not be anybody left there, and, this intriguing thread could be redundant

From that which has been posted by numerous contributors. This Delane person comes across as, at the very least, an arrogant little bastard. I take it he is not particularly well developed physically from what I have establisted in this thread. Am I correct in concluding that?

An old boy with a mullet? Is this fella trapped in a time warp, and have the rest of the 'high grades joined him? Beam me up Scotty!! Back to 79 & Millbrook St Gloucester. Not I am told, the most salubrious of areas. Still what do you expect? Thanks for the info Norman.


[This message has been edited by Midnightcrawler (edited 01-25-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Midnightcrawler (edited 01-25-2005).]

S - it is obviously no consolation, but I am feeling your pain. How can any honourable person charge £60 for a product that has so patently cost less than a £5'er to produce?

And as for large font ... equals little to say.

I take it this book has no ISBN number, has not been reviewed by an editior/literary authority, has not been reviewed by peers - didn't the printers of such books used to be described as "Vanity Presses"?

As for only being available to members of the BAMA ... to quote F. Scott Fitzgerald "The strongest guard is on the gateway to nothing, to hide the shameful secret there within".

I also am very p1ssed off about this b00k Bullsh1T.

I remember this at a seminar.

He said we need to have 60 Orders for this book RIGHT NOW so we can by the machine to make the books properly. 60 People ordered the book there and then at £60 per head.

No machine materialized at the book still remains to be printed on a home printer and bound together.

So you are telling me that printer paper, ink came to £3600 pounds ?

I say this as the "book" is still a4 paper and is a fking RIP OFFF

More and More.

I will try and get a scan of this DRAYU ladder Bullsh!t aswell. This is where a Student can pay 300 pounds if he is good enough and get instant Access to the "SECRET STUFF" ???????

Secret Stuff more carrots for us donkeys

What say we start to post some stuff from the horses mouth? I like the idea of scanning stuff and posting it. If it's as good as PD makes out, then everyone will fall at his feet, as long as everyone's not too overly cynical.

So let the masters words speak for themselves. I don't have many of them, but this can act as a taster::::::::::::::::::

[QUOTE]The ocean rides the invisible currents of the invisible force.
Our school feels the winds of the past students and Masters.

We, you and I, can feel the surge of energy that is this school.
We can feel the future surging through the pulsing blood of our new students.

New Dojo's, across the country, are joining our family.
A new direction for our fanatics is beginning.
We have new keen teachers on the way.

2001 was the beginning.............none of us will ever see the end.

New technology is arriving.
Plans for the next big push to assist our sensei's are in place.

Future plans for Master Zen are in place and those who know of it are
very excited.

The past was magical.
The present is exciting,
The future...............................well that is now guaranteed.

We have all done very well.
Delane Academy has it's new banners, and at least two new full time dojo's coming on line
in the next two years.

THE BOOK HAS BEEN RECEIVED WELL AND IS GAINING IT'S OWN FAN CLUB.

AFTER THURSDAY THERE WILL BE NO MORE PLACES BOOKABLE ON MY WEEKENDS.
BUT THERE WILL ALWAYS BE PLACES BOOKABLE WITH MASTER SHUGOSAN.
ASK HIM ABOUT OUR NEW SWORD / ZEN / AIKIDO MUSHIN / MEDITATION WEEKENDS AT OUR NEW FULL TIME DOJO AT GLOUCESTER. THIS WEEKEND IS DESIGNED TO BE A SPIRITUAL WEEKEND OF GOOD VIBES AND PEACE AND HARMONY. THERE WILL BE NO VIOLENT TRAINING AT ALL AND WILL FEATURE VISITING RETAINERS AND OTHER HIGH GRADES. THIS WILL RUN ON A NEW SYSTEM. THERE WILL BE LOW NUMBERS AND ONLY A FEW WEEKENDS OFFERED.
ALL WEEKENDS CAN ONLY BE BOOKED THROUGH MASTER SHUGOSAN.
COTSFIELD IS FULL. I AM FULL.

IF YOU ARE A REAL FANATIC AND CANNOT GET ENOUGH CONTACT ME FOR A PRIVATE CHAT ABOUT YOUR FUTURE. TEL ........................... ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. TALK TO ME. YOU WILL BE SURPRISED AT WHAT I CAN DO FOR YOU. THERE IS SO MUCH GOING ON ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY.
SOON THIS SCHOOL WILL BE ABLE TO RUN WELL WITHOUT ME RUNNING EVERYTHING
SO APPROACH ME WHILE YOU CAN. ALL CONVERSATIONS WILL BE CONFIDENTIAL.

EVEN I AM AMAZED AT THE FANATISM SINCE MY SEMINAR.
IF YOU THOUGHT THAT WAS GREAT WAIT UNTIL THE SWORD SEMINAR.
LIVE BLADES ( JULY 7TH ).............BOKKENS ( JULY 14TH ).
CONGRATULATIONS TO EVERYONE.
THE BLOOD FLOWS WELL.
[/QUOTE]

[This message has been edited by Adonai (edited 01-26-2005).]

now, i've read this thread from start to finish and i think i've only posted once. the above is the first evidence of PD's thought processes and advertising stick. i think it is geared to pull people in that feel left out in society. people that would be called disenfranchised, so to speak. reading it as printed word with no context it is pretty funny. BUT, having somoene saying it, within a training atmosphere, might just work.

who doesn't want to feel special in some way? what MA can honestly say that (at least when they started), they didn't feel special? the runner's forum i read is the same way; they all feel special because they can run over 20 miles every other day at 5am in 10 degree weather. the miitary guys i know, they feel special because of the stuff they have done, or been trained to do. i could go on and on and add more (so could anyone reading this i bet).

bottom line: take a bunch of average out of place feeling people, give them some good MA training, make them feel special.

i don't like this because it reminds me of jim jones, david koresh, etc etc. people should feel special because of who they are, not derive it from other's opinions or organization.

Kel

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hunterkell:
bottom line: take a bunch of average out of place feeling people, give them some good MA training, make them feel special.

i don't like this because it reminds me of jim jones, david koresh, etc etc. people should feel special because of who they are, not derive it from other's opinions or organization.

Kel[/QUOTE]

I agree completely, and have felt from the beginning that instructors make use of the fact a lot of teenagers wanting to do martial arts are bullied, vulnerable and have low self esteem.

I've heard instructors using identical sales pitches for each new student walking through the door, even though the content sounds very personal and special. I feel sorry for the lost souls and can't help feeling like they're being exploited.

I've no doubt that their low-self esteem is very quickly replaced for high self-esteem. But that is just when comparing themselves with people outside the organisation. I remember feeling like i was something really special, and privately dismissing any other school of thought however enlightened it was.

But saying that I've seen high grade instructors still display feelings of worthlessness when comparing themselves with their contemporaries. And even high self esteem, in any context, is still "self centred" and detracts from what i believe true Zen would encourage.

We are all equal. It would do arrogant people a world of good to realise that.

[This message has been edited by Adonai (edited 01-26-2005).]

It is quite easy to call Bushido a religion, (and a bad one at that!) as D.H. Lawrence said:
"A man has no religion who has not slowly and painfully gathered one together, adding to it, shaping it, and one's religion is never complete and final, it seems, but must always be undergoing modification. So I contend that true Socialism is religion; that honest, fervent politics are religion; that whatever a man will labour for earnestly and in some measure unselfishly is religion"
If you are not monotheistic, that does not mean you are not part of a religion in my eyes. Bushido has Pete Delane very firmly at its head, very much like a god since they don't support theism, but are more akin to an eastern zen approach. In that sense he assumes the role of Buddha. It's quite easy to see, a state which all his followers aspire towards (but PD makes a point of saying "you'll never be as good as me")