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#132387 - 05/14/03 02:19 PM Punching problem
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
When i go 'all out' on the bag, and it starts to swing and jump and move i try to adjust. Occassionally I 'miss'. So purely for example say i've hit the bag with two straight jabs and I follow that up with a cross. The problem is that the bag is already swinging away and therefore doesn't take the force of the strike.

Thus my elbow jars hard. Pain. Now this in itself isn't the problem, i just need to get better with the bag, adjusting for its movement. I can do that with time. But this highlights the real problem.

The problem is:

This NEVER happens in air punching I always lock it just short with muscular tension as i've been taught - to save my elbows and for the purposes of striking. I believe that I couldn't jar my elbow even if I wanted to, the tension/locking habit combined with the whiplash of the body and the stance 'grounding' is such an unthinking habit.

So I conclude the way i'm hitting the bag is different from the way I hit the air.
I can't be tensing the muscle at the end of the strike on the bag.

Any ideas on whats going wrong? 'cos i'm baffled. Why doesn't the habit transfer automatically? Am I hitting the bag in a 'bad' or wrong' way?

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#132388 - 05/14/03 02:42 PM Re: Punching problem
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Could be a problem with alignment. Do you use a full twist punch, verticle punch or 3/4 twist punch. I feel and have been shown by some docs that the 3/4 twist punch mechanically aligns the bones better.

Scott

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#132389 - 05/14/03 02:51 PM Re: Punching problem
madhag Offline
Member

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 150
Loc: Seattle, WA
punching the air is differently from punching the bag, part of it you're not met with resistance, and that your mind doesn't have a physical point of focus in the air. it will be beneficial to keep your elbow slightly bent to avoid the tension, and tighten muscles at impact. i never lock my elbows at the bag or sparring; not only does it hurt but a)i can throw myself off balance b)my partner in a split second can take advantage of a locked elbow with an arm bar, joint lock, take down, etc....
like punching the air, punch through the bag, not at the bag itself. i hope this helps some, i'd like to hear other techniques.

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#132390 - 05/14/03 03:02 PM Re: Punching problem
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
I think you've got your distancing messed up, after all do you think If you jab someone twice that they will want to stick around for the cross?

Jab, Jab then use your footwork to push yourself forward giving you the correct distance to the bag.

Problem solved.

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#132391 - 05/14/03 03:28 PM Re: Punching problem
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Ok i think i've explained myself poorly here.

Please have patience with me.

erm......

What i'm saying is that in punching the air i don't jar my elbows. EVER. Cos i stop the punch with the muscle and not the joint.

When hitting the bag, the bag stops the punch, not the muscle or the joint.

When my mind is convinced that i'm going to hit the bag, and i've actually screwed up*
and got the distance wrong and i'm really just hitting the air/ touching the bag, then the punch is stopped by the joint. This is wrong, but i can't solve the problem until I know why I punch differently when i'm hitting the bag.

This jarring occurs more when i'm tired and working endurance admittedly, but also occassionaly when i'm fresh, so thats not it.

The jarring isn't the problem in itself. The problem is that it means i hit the bag in a different way then the air. This is not my intention. I am under the impression as Madhag implies that the technique in theory should be no different on the bag than it is in the air.

The punch is not the same on the bag as it is in the air. This is the problem.


*(this is the distancing problem UKFF, i'm not so worried about it, i can work on this 'cos i understand why it happens, btw the illustration of two jabs and a cross was just that- an example, but thanks for the input.)

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#132392 - 05/14/03 04:33 PM Re: Punching problem
Scholar Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 472
Loc: Brockton
Stop going to full extension and you won't have the roughness at the end of movement as I got at my elbow. I learned too late, you don't have to damage the elbow! Remember the effects show up as you get older.

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#132393 - 05/14/03 05:12 PM Re: Punching problem
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
It's really simple. When you punch, you generate momentum (you get the car moving).
When you punch air, you accelerate with the muscles, then brake with the muscles. (You gun the engine, then hit the brakes.)
When you hit the bag, you accelerate with the muscles, and decelerate using the bags weight.
But when you miss, all of the deceleration takes place in the joint.
I agree with UKFF and Scholar. One, use your footwork to not miss. Two, don't punch to full extension. Always leave yourself a little bend to your elbow, and try getting more power out of your hips/stepping than out of your arm.

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#132394 - 05/14/03 05:14 PM Re: Punching problem
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
I think I understand now.

Your arm should be relaxed (and even your fist slightly) and only tense on the point of impact.

Leaving as many have suggested a small (and i mean small bend in the arm.

Just an idea for now but I am going to ask the advice of a few friends who I consider experts on the matter.

I'll get back to you.

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#132395 - 05/14/03 05:17 PM Re: Punching problem
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Ok ta Jamoni, sounds good, will practice.

Thanks UKFF, i appreciate it.

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#132396 - 05/14/03 06:46 PM Re: Punching problem
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
Hmm!,

I think that this is what some have already said….

Alec, the isometric contraction of the muscles involved in a punch should be the same for an “air” punch as in one that hits a target..

A full power punch is a punch that is extended at full speed with a complete contraction of the arm at its apex…difference is that some times , something is in the way…..
It is really down to “knowing your body” , or muscle memory.

A little variant when hitting a bag is the ability to put the “body “ into the punch in the knowledge that the impact feed back will steady you…but in truth I think this is a “cop out”

If it helps, punch full speed at some thing and just stop the punch as the fist touches it, NOT AT FULL ARM EXTENSION!!!!!! Then move the depth into the target inch by inch, keeping the arm movement/contraction the same.

Does the bag move away from your punch or do you push it? A good punch should stop and the bag should accelerate away from it…

Mark

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#132397 - 05/14/03 06:58 PM Re: Punching problem
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Right, that makes a lot of sense. After 3 times of reading, i'm thinkin' i'm knowin' wot you're meanin'.

I'll try the move in thing, sounds good.

If i'm honest with you after two or three GOOD rounds on the bag i'm pushing the 'punch' in. But thats just(!) a fitness thing, can be sorted. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]

When i'm relatively fresh I can get the bag to 'jump' rather than swing and I take this as a good indicator of a hit rather than a push. BUT it takes focus, which come to think of it is probably the root of the matter?

So in conclusion it is quite possibly mental lazyness.

Right, i'm off to find a bag.

Thanks

Alec.

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#132398 - 05/15/03 08:22 AM Re: Punching problem
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
Don't throw a punch unless you mean it (or if you don't mean it, it should be on purpose!).

If you get tired concentrate on keeping your guard up and moving around the target. Then throw small combos - Jab, cross or Jab, cross, hook. But don't go mad just return to your guard, keep moving and repeat.

Your fitness will catch up to the point where you can keep combos going throughout a round, I think its better to do ten proper combos in 3 mins than do 10 proper and 20 sloppy.

Remember the 5 P's 'Perfect Practice Prevents Poor Performance. If you get used to punching sloppy, you punch sloppy. If you don't know how to punch sloppy, you can't punch sloppy!

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#132399 - 05/15/03 03:35 PM Re: Punching problem
madhag Offline
Member

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 150
Loc: Seattle, WA
yeah definitely work on the details of the techniques; what helped me to keep my elbow slightly bent was to think that my fist is just a weapon, but the power comes from the ground through my hips. good stances, footwork, balance and grounding make or break your punches. power doesn't originate from the arm itself. thinking that, i do lots of heavy bag work in my training and haven't hurt myself in years.
i also learned from the experience of breaking boards. if i mentally shift away from hitting the board, to hitting through down below, then i do not hurt myself. same with the bag.

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#132400 - 05/16/03 07:22 AM Re: Punching problem
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Well most of this has probably been said already but just to throw in my two pence worth.
It sounds like a simply case of "impact reliance" to me. By that i mean that when hitting the bag, you are relying on a combination of correct distancing and your experience of the give of the bag relative to your known punching power with each technique to declerate and stop your arm before you hyperextend the joint. When hitting the air you know you don't have this luxury and therefore you lock the arm at the correct extention. This trend would also to my mind tend to indicate that you are limiting the power of your punches on the bag. In saying this, I mean that you are clearly relying upon the initialy contact and mass of the bag to trigger and assist in deceleration of the technique. In fact you should be hitting through the bag and metaphoricaly finishing the technique on the far side of the bag. With this in mind and removing the mental crutch that you have been employing, the bag should idealy as suggested move away from your point of impact and your techique should end as near to where it would of had the bag been made of paper and you had blasted right through it. A confused explanation I'm afraid but I hope it makes some sense.

Regds
Mr V

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#132401 - 05/16/03 10:45 AM Re: Punching problem
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Don't throw a punch unless you mean it (or if you don't mean it, it should be on purpose!).

Confused me at first, but with a little thought, i think i know exactly what you mean. Sounds like good advice. I'll try and bear it in mind.

A confused explanation I'm afraid but I hope it makes some sense.

Yes and Yes. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

I think i'm with you.

I may have some difficulty with the whole hitting through thing, mainly because of the weight of some of the bags. I realise that this shouldn't change the technique, but a really heavy solid bag makes it a bit more difficult to focus on the paper analogy. Having said that, I readily accept the validity of what you are saying.

I hope it'll just be a matter of correct and appropriate repetition now!

Thanks

Alec

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#132402 - 05/16/03 09:50 PM Re: Punching problem
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
Often the fear of turning your wrist when we punch a heavy bag limits the power we put into a punch.

Get some wrist wraps, and put them on tight so you cant bend your wrist, i find most students can almost instantly hit harder.

mark

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#132403 - 11/23/06 06:57 PM Re: Punching problem [Re: mark]
Malachi Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 51
Loc: Seattle, Washington
Also dont forget is critical to keep in mind...
punching the air is different then punching a bag....
punching a bag is didfferent than punching a person.

Its easy to get into "bag" mentality. We had one school in our assocation spend a great deal of time for awhile focusing on bag work. we found in high level testing that these students tended to have a higher propensity to drive in to the attack ( more aggrressive with their punching) but didn't have the targeting, follow thru, or transitional capabilities of the students who used a mix of air/real contact training.. think the moral of ths story is to use all of them, and be wary if you become too dependant on
a specific one.

Malachi

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