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#132125 - 12/23/02 03:25 PM Ki, the power to control energy or not?
juliusj1n Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 50
Loc: Ontario
Okay, recently I found a few websites describing Ki. They described Ki as being the energy that courses through every single thing. But what I doubt is true is that man has the ability to control energy. But, I do believe that anything is possible. Is it possible to produce little Ki Balls of energy or is it just a hoax. It could be, it may not be... it did say that Ki is pretty much the same as being telekinetic or psychic in some way... I don't know, any thoughts?

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#132126 - 02/26/03 02:12 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Hershal Offline
Member

Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 48
Loc: Sydney
I've never seen ki balls used, But ki definately increases your power... It might just be because you focus more, or maybe its more than that... It doesn't really matter, the whole concept makes you fight better.

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#132127 - 03/01/03 07:41 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
Yes it is possible.

It won't be what you expect though.

Life is not a computer game.


oh. BTW. what has this to do with this particular forum??

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#132128 - 03/06/03 08:08 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
For one Judderman since it is a martial arts forum the topic does belong [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] As far as Ki goes yes it does exist. There are things that you cannot see and things that you will never know but it doesnt mean they are not there. We are all small beings in a huge universe...

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#132129 - 04/01/03 06:13 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
yes Ki does exist, ask any Reiki practioner like myself and we can prove it to you with a simple exercise.

Hold your hands a few mm apart in front of you [say about 6mm], palms facing. You may need to relax in a quiet place and close your eyes. Rotate/move the hands backward/ forwards or in and out without touching for a while and you will feel something between the palms. It may feel sticky or prickly or warm or even like something else, like magnets repelling or ???

This is the Ki emitted from a normal person's body by the hands.

When I first did this exercise long before I became a Reiki Master I was amazed at the feeling.... now I feel energy that is 1000 times more than it used to be particularly when the Reiki is flowing, it can be larger than a basketball before I lose some of the feeling!

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#132130 - 04/02/03 06:49 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Ki, never seen it, felt it, experienced it, or seen it proved. All the Ki demonstations and explanations I've seen involved simple physics that had philosophical mumbo jumbo woven around them to obscure the real explanations.

"Little Ki balls of energy"

Get real. Did your mind leave when you were reading this bull.

John L

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#132131 - 04/02/03 04:35 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
JohnL whether or not you choose to believe in the aspects of martial arts that are not physical is up to you. However this is the second time today that I have seen you trash someone for believing things you do not. This is not right. It also leads me to wonder about your training. Would you ask your Sensei if he lost his mind? I doubt it. I find your responses rude for the most part and invasive to the learning enviroment of this site. It is people like you and posts like yours that has caused this site to lose many great minds. Get lost.

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#132132 - 04/02/03 06:10 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field controls my destiny.
Hokey religions, and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side.
How can you guys argue with Han Solo? He made the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs, fer Pete's sake!

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#132133 - 04/02/03 06:21 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
True but Anakin or Luke's power over the force would destroy Hans. As would Yoda or any other "force" being.

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#132134 - 04/02/03 09:45 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Scholar Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 472
Loc: Brockton
John L. when are you going to try it to check it out for yourself or have you? I say if a person allows for the possibility that something is true then they can try it to decide for themself. For example starting with an external method..a QiGong set because internal takes longer usually like seated meditation. Would feeling the energy build up in your arms ect. and feeling tingling of electricity or heat be convincing?

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#132135 - 04/02/03 11:35 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Also just because you havent seen it or felt it doesnt mean it isnt there. God is the greatest example of this.

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#132136 - 04/03/03 06:31 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Chen Zen
Haven't got time to respond fully to your points but will try to later today.

In the meantime, keep religion out of the discussion. I joined a martial arts forum. I will not discuss my or anyones religion, or lack of, on this site.

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#132137 - 04/03/03 10:27 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I do not wish to speak on religion either it was simply an example. Here is another. You cannot see air, you cannot touch it or taste it but you know its there. Same thing.

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#132138 - 04/03/03 11:16 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Finally time to reply.

Scholar asked if I had checked out Chi/Ki, whatever you want to call it.

To be honest I don't know how!

I have attended a variety of Seminars/Classes Etc. with a number of so called experts, that are supposed to contain examples of "inner power" but none have satisfied my search for proof that it exists.

The majority of times, the examples shown rely on people saying what they feel as opposed to what can be seen. The problem with this is that due to the (I believe) mistaken attitude of not asking questions for fear of offending, many people claim things wanting to feel a part of the group as opposed to being honest with themselves. I call it the Emperor's Clothes Syndrome, for those of you familiar with the childrens story.

Other times, generally when it is claimed that physical results are apparent as a result of an inner energy source, the examples have been very simply explained by body mechanics/physical positioning/physical technique. When this is questioned the people giving the seminar invariably say that they are using only inner energy. When questioned in more depth, the general response is that you shouldn't be rude by questioning.

As stated in one of my earlier posts, I believe it's our obligation to question, to ensure these charlatans are not allowed to continue peddling their snake oil to unsuspecting novices.

Chen Zen
My apologies if I upset you earlier, as it wasn't intended.
However, if you are going to use examples to rebut my opinions I believe you should use better ones to illustrate your case.
The use of air as an example of something that is not seen but exists is a poor example. The presence of air has been proven scientifically rather than by a leap of faith, can be felt by moving through it. As far as tasting air, I don't know. I think you probably only taste what contaminates it.

Regards

John L



[This message has been edited by JohnL (edited 04-03-2003).]

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#132139 - 04/03/03 12:43 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
John, the response I gave about air and such was all I had at the time. I understand your point on the emperors clothes and the "miracle" salesman. Look at chi this way, we have not yet explored even a fraction of the galaxy, have no idea what is there. But I guarnatee you that there are planets out there. Have you heard of Bhudda? He was said to possess such chi power that he was able to concentrate on a spot in a wall and after years of concentration a hole was worn thru this wall. Chi is the moment when you are sparring and react before you ever think about it, the way you know what your opponent is doing or thinking before they do. It is focus on a level near to enlightenment. Does it make you throw fireballs? No. I did not mean to be so rude in my post but I feel that if you are prepared to question something then there is a better way to do it than attacking the person or their way of thinking thats all. Chi is something that is diffrent to everyone and everyone must find there own ways to unlock it but personally, I know for me it exist. That is all I need. Chen Zen

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#132140 - 04/03/03 01:29 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Scholar Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 472
Loc: Brockton
John L, I respect your scientific approach, thank you for your consideration.

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#132141 - 04/03/03 04:01 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
As Chen Zen has already so eloquently said, if you haven't tried it don't rubbish it. No manner of seminars and demonstrations will convince you if you have such a closed mind.

We know that air is there and yet can we see it? We can feel ki, yet it is not visible, is this not similar to knowing viruses & bacteria exist and yet because we cannot see them with the bare eye, saying they do not exist?

I work with Reiki on a daily basis both for my family healing and within the dojo for anyone who gets hurt. As for using qui gong to build up personal ki, the results of this have been proven over centuries by the Chinese.

Religion IMHO doesn't come into the equation.

Ki is ki, it is there whether you care to believe in it or not.

You can measure the ki emitted from the hands of a normal person..

Ok here's your scientific approach, [as an engineer I believe in science in assisting with facts and figures]: <I quote from one of the qui gong sites>

Scientific research over the last few years has arrived at an explanation for qi emission in terms of infrasonic waves. Infrasonic waves are sound waves vibrating below 20 Hertz (Hz) - too slow to be audible to the human ear.

Every living person emits these waves from the palms of their hands, generally in 8 to 12.5 Hz range at an intensity of 40 to 50 decibels (dB).

In one research study, 29 Americans with no prior qigong training had the intensity of the infrasonic waves from their palms measured both before and after a week of qigong practice. Before the training, the average intensity for the group was 47dB. After one week of training, the average intensity rose to 54dB.

Well, a 7 decibel increase might not sound like a lot, until you realize that decibels are a logarithmic unit, meaning that you cannot add and subtract them like ordinary numbers.

So when these 29 students had an average increase of 7dB, they were actually producing five times the energy after qigong training! And as part of the same study, one Qigong master generated waves of 78db, which is 1000 times greater than the average person emits. <end quote>

I will add that I do a lot of work with acoustics and measurement of sound, both audible and inaudible frequency ranges using soundmeters, also with particulate in airstreams and its measurement using particle counters and other such analysis methods for things like clean rooms and hospital operating theatres.

Taste/smell of air is as a result of contaminants and/or the amount of oxygen present.

I have treated people who were completely & totally negative to the idea of ki. Once they felt the reiki energy that they drew into their bodies <HEAT, lots & lots of it!!>, they changed their minds rather quickly...

So John L, don't rubbish what you haven't tried. As a martial artist you should know better.

I come from a country [New Zealand] where we actively question but also experiment with all things without having closed minds. That's why life is always such fun!

Our MA training system involves internal arts such as Qui gong and Reiki as well as all other aspects of self defence, "normal" type karate training, pressure point work, some aikido stuff, small circle work, weapons and grappling.

It's fun and I've learnt a lot since starting on this path, but I am always ready to learn more... and as the oldest member of our dojo I feel it's my duty to keep learning and teaching.

My challenge to you is - try it for yourself! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]




[This message has been edited by Reiki (edited 04-03-2003).]

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#132142 - 04/03/03 04:32 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Why is it that whenever anyone says "Prove what you have told me," they have a "Closed mind"?
Is an open mind one that believes whatever it is told? Sounds useless. You say that ki is emitted from the hands, but CAN BE MEASURED AS LOW FREQUENCY SOUND. Doesn't this mean that the hands emit low frequency sound? Where does the ki come in?

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#132143 - 04/03/03 04:45 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Sorry Chen Zen, I hope it doesn't make you feel like I'm picking on you, but I thought a couple of your points were worth commenting on.

"Have you heard of Bhudda? He was said to possess such chi power that he was able to concentrate on a spot in a wall and after years of concentration a hole was worn thru this wall."

Wholly unverifyable. A matter of belief when no proof is available.

"Chi is the moment when you are sparring and react before you ever think about it, the way you know what your opponent is doing or thinking before they do."

I don't believe that this has anything to do with Chi. This is a product of training. Well trained MA's can put an opponent in a position from which a predictable movement will occur. This is body mechanics/timing and observation, not chi. This experience can be exagerated when you practice with people you are familiar with, as being accustomed to there movements and abilities will allow you even more accurate anticipation of what they are going to do next than with strangers.

Having given everyone on this forum a hard time when they start to suggest that chi is an effective force of some kind and if as you describe it, knowing what people are going to do before they do, I think I should suggest how chi can be effectively tested.

The "chi master" should be sat down and have all external sensors deprived. (blindfold, ear plugs, nose clip, solid floor so he can't feel anyone coming through vibrations.) We'll allow him to keep his mouth open so he can breathe however he should have had some extra strong mints to nullify his sense of taste. It would then be reasonable to assume that his external senses have been isolated and he can only now rely on his chi, or inner feelings.

Someone standing behind him, at a time of their choosing, should then whack him with something. A baseball bat (for the vindictive) a rolled up newspaper would suit me fine.

All the chi master has to do is say stop, just before he gets hit.

"It is focus on a level near to enlightenment."

This quote would appear to suggest that martial arts ivolve some form of enlightenment. This is a whole other subject.

As I said, I don't want it to appear that I'm picking on you, but when your posts describe things that I don't agree with, I respond.

Regards

JohnL


[This message has been edited by JohnL (edited 04-03-2003).]

[This message has been edited by JohnL (edited 04-03-2003).]

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#132144 - 04/03/03 05:28 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I dont feel picked on John and I will ask you this: Have you ever seen shoalin Monks do a live performance? I was lucky enough to in 96 and they can make anyone believe in chi I think. The ability to take a full force kick to the throat blindfolded and never flinch fall or cry out in pain and never show any sign of physical damage. No bruis scrape or blood. Keep in mind they are blindfolded the whole time so that they cannot flex and protect the throat with the neck muscles. Ive seen them lay on spikebeds and have bricks broken on there body with sledge hammers and not so much as a drop of blood. They walked up flights of stairs made up of sword blades barefoot and other amazing feets and they make it look as if this is something that should be able to be done naturally. This is chi.

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#132145 - 04/03/03 07:24 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
Re: Shaolin monks - I was fortunate to see their performance here in NZ last year. They were amazing!

Re: Ki emitted as measurable sound - were you not aware that sound is a form of energy and is normally measured as such?

fyi -
Sound power [Lw (watts)] = 10 log[watts]/[10^(-12)]

Note: Sound power is converted into predictable sound pressure [as the ear would hear] once the acoustical environment surrounding the source is defined. Temperature, distance, humidity and other physical parameters such as the materials, reflecting surfaces etc surrounding the noise source should be taken into account when calculating the final results.

If you can measure ki energy emitted from the hands in watts then what more is there to prove? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Energy is energy and it can be measured as such.

Don't knock it until you've tried it buddy...

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#132146 - 04/03/03 09:22 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
My point was that sound is energy in the form of vibrations. Of course the body gives off vibrations. It's moving. We process chemical energy in the form of food into movement, which creates vibration. Where is the chi? I can yell, and thats not chi. I can bang a drum. Not chi. I can shake rattle and roll, but this is just regular old energy. NOT CHI. So, is chi a form of energy all by itself? If so, how can we measure it in a way THAT CANNOT BE ATTRIBUTED TO ALREADY KNOWN ENERGY AND MECHANISMS?

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#132147 - 04/03/03 09:48 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Chi is not " a source" of energy but "the source" of energy that flows thru all living things. it is the life force.

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#132148 - 04/04/03 08:35 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi Chen Zen

You're at it again, attributing things to chi that don't nessecarily belong there.

"Have you ever seen shoalin Monks do a live performance? I was lucky enough to in 96 and they can make anyone believe in chi I think."

Yes I saw them in London. Great demonstration, amazing ability, great physical conditioning, no signs of chi.

"The ability to take a full force kick to the throat blindfolded and never flinch fall or cry out in pain and never show any sign of physical damage. No bruis scrape or blood. Keep in mind they are blindfolded the whole time so that they cannot flex and protect the throat with the neck muscles."

Great phsical conditioning. Nothing to do with chi

"Ive seen them lay on spikebeds and have bricks broken on there body with sledge hammers and not so much as a drop of blood."

Simple physics. Weight, surface area, etc. Nothing to do with any "internal" power.

"They walked up flights of stairs made up of sword blades barefoot."

Same as above.

"This is chi."

You have given a vast number of examples in your numerous posts on this subject, none of which demonstrate that "chi" or an "internal power source" exists. Everything in all your posts can be acheived with good physical training.

Sorry. I just want someone to show me that chi exists. I won't take it on faith.

JohnL

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#132149 - 04/04/03 11:15 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Do you not think that it takes emense focus and concentration as well? sound internal to me.

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#132150 - 04/04/03 01:50 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Of course it takes concentration. To do anything difficult takes concentration.

Is that it, is that the best we can do?

Chi is just concentration?

After all the examples that you've given have been explained as simple physical phenomena, we've come down to this!

JohnL

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#132151 - 04/04/03 02:14 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
It is not just this. This is an example of it being used. Trying to describe chi is like describing the color of air. Or the face of God. I will look thru my copy of the Tao and see what they offer and get back to you.

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#132152 - 04/06/03 05:48 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
I've *already* told you how to experience chi for yourself, go and have a reiki treatment then come back and tell me what you have felt...

Sorry I forgot many of you are men and need to be told *precisely* rather than picking up more subtle suggestions and running with them.

[No offense meant guys!] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

>>>>I hope I didn't come across as being a bit snarly, I'm feeling rather sore [& a wee bit tired].

I just finished a 2 day training camp, we did a lot of sparring & drills, myself with several male partners who were a lot stronger & heavier... we also did a lot of grappling and takedowns...

I have a lot of sore muscles, cuts, scrapes & bruises but it was FUN!

and I'll be baaaack! ;D

[This message has been edited by Reiki (edited 04-06-2003).]

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#132153 - 05/09/03 11:20 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Cameronjitsu Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 2
Loc: none
anybody have any comments on the boxer rebellion?

-c

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#132154 - 05/09/03 03:56 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Ender Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 2253
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
I myself am an active ptractitioner of such energy arts as Tai Chi Chuan, Pa Gwa Chang, and Chi Kung, and to my experience chi/ki is a very active part of my life. I vouch completely on it's existance. Please note that Chi/Ki theory (like zen) is not intended to change any of your beliefs, merely expand on them.

Sometimes the most ignorant course of action is to never question what we've been taught. This is evident in all courses of history.

How far you take the Chi/Ki theory is up to you, but I guarantee that once you get a taste, you will believe. IF your interested, any and all, go to the library and pick up a book on this stuff, or seek out a qualified instructor.

Emphasis on the "QUALIFIED" part, be careful, theres lots of con men out there.

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#132155 - 05/09/03 04:55 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Holy Crap!

I had no idea I was missing this discussion.

Reiki, did you get that off of mindboxing.com? Its a friend of mine's site.

Chi, qi, ki is really the natural processes of the body. Biochemical reactions and so forth as you train (qigong) you are making those processes more efficient and stronger. Where's the mystery, where's the magic? What is the confusion?

Can you knock someone down with your chi? No.

Can you move object with it? or make Dragonball-Z-like chi-balls? No.

Can qigong increase your health and quality of life? Yes.

The more oxygen you take in the more aerobic the conditions in your body become the better the process work and the more efficient your body becomes at taking in and processing oxygen so the better it works and so on. Its just science not magic. If you want magic, I am availble for shows at the cost of 500 USD per show (I'll blow your mind, but they are all tricks).

I tire of reapeating myself but if you think you or anyone can move things, heal cancer, knock someone down or make little chi-balls then go to

$1,000,000 Paranormal Challenge

and apply for the $1,000,000.

Even the most vocal proponent of Reiki and chi and ling kong jing (empty force) has failed miserably when challeged in this manner.

Taking the challenge is FREE, did you hear that F R E E!!!!

What are you waiting for, it free money yours for the taking

alright I'm sorry I got carried away there, but this crap gets my chi all riled up.


Scott


[This message has been edited by Kempoman (edited 05-09-2003).]

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#132156 - 05/09/03 05:29 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
Gidday Scott et als

Did I get what off mindboxing.com? No, never been there! But I'll have a look at it now you've told me it's there!

Do u mean the formula or the stuff about measurement of ki? The measurement of ki stuff came from ome of the qui gong sites newsletters. I found it interesting to read the scientific approach while knowing the physical changes directly.

The formula is the std formula for sound power. Every acoustic engineer knows it and works with it.

I agree that working with ki [as in healing with Reiki] and doing Qui gong will improve your health and quality of life.

I've never said that you could use ki to move anything... that's why we have trucks! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Anyway I'm going to go and work some of my horses while it's not raining! I have the last of the season's competitions next week and I'd like to finish on another high before I let them have a rest for a few weeks while the weather is nasty. Then I can devote more time to MA training for a bit!

Budo
Train hard, enjoy!

And Scott, you'll have to be more awake to catch up with some of these discussions in future! Good post mate, I enjoyed your rational approach.

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#132157 - 05/09/03 05:54 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Geoff Offline
Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 102
Loc: UK
Don't want to be rude or appear closed minded butin thirty odd years of ma I have never been convinced of the existence of any chi or ki, however I will make an effort and look at reiki. I'm with John and the sceptics right now

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#132158 - 05/10/03 05:44 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
Good for you Geoff!

All I was suggesting to the others was that they were open to trying new things before they knocked them, publicly or otherwise.

IMHO You can't possibly know whether you like/[or believe in] something or not until you've tried it at least once.

Budo

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#132159 - 05/13/03 05:16 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
madhag Offline
Member

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 150
Loc: Seattle, WA
chi is elusive to explain. it is inherent in all of us but beyond words. i think a simple very basic way to demonstrate it is to interact with a live being versus a dead one. You can say the dead body has no chi. Another is to be in the presence of a dying person taking his/her last breath.
chi can be applied in many many different ways. these little black letters is a result of my chi.

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#132160 - 05/14/03 07:21 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi Madhag:

As always, when it comes to chi, people go off onto a winding path that goes nowhere.

"chi is elusive to explain."

No it isn't. You either can or you can't. If you can, fine, go ahead. If you can't, that's OK, just say so.

"it is inherent in all of us but beyond words."

How do you know it's inherent within all of us when you can't say what it is. It isn't beyond words. You just don't know the right ones to use so put forward lame excuses.

"i think a simple very basic way to demonstrate it is to interact with a live being versus a dead one. You can say the dead body has no chi."

One has a beating heart, the other doesn't. One has a pair of lungs pushing air around, the other doesn't. One's brain has ceased to function, the others hasn't.
Exactly what is the chi function that you're talking about.

"Another is to be in the presence of a dying person taking his/her last breath."

What on earth has that got to do with Chi.

"chi can be applied in many many different ways."

How can you apply it when you don't even know what it is.

"these little black letters is a result of my chi."

When your little black letters appear on my screen, they're
white. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] See, I do have a sense of humour.

Nothing you have said has explained what chi is, whether it exists or not, how it can be used, how it can be proved, or when it ceases to exist.

Sorry.

JohnL



[This message has been edited by JohnL (edited 05-14-2003).]

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#132161 - 05/14/03 02:03 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
madhag Offline
Member

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 150
Loc: Seattle, WA
Nothing you have said has explained what chi is, whether it exists or not, how it can be used, how it can be proved, or when it ceases to exist.

Sorry.

JohnL

My, are you having fun with your love letters. The love you spread on this forum is a nice example of extending your chi out to the universe.
May the chi be with you! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#132162 - 05/19/03 05:20 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Shadowfax Offline
Member

Registered: 10/08/01
Posts: 296
Loc: Mason City, IA
OK, JohnL, the idea about hitting the chi practitioner in the head with a bat struck me as funny. Of course, I have a warped sense of humor anyway .. .


You should be aware, however, that your experiment would not be scientifically valid. Just for one example, once the guy got klonked, you would then have to prove that something in the mints did not block chi. If you're going to insist on a scientific explanation/test, then your test needs to be scientific.

Also, the idea that it's ONLY physical conditioning that allows the monks to take a hit to the throat is not exactly valid. You could get Mr. Universe up there and disable him with a punch to the throat, yet the monks don't seem to have a problem with it. Clearly, they're doing something other than simple physical conditioning!

I think a central problem with "believing" in chi/ki/etc is that the concept of people harnessing chi has been corrupted to the image of Jedi training. Too many people think that "focusing your chi" will let you move objects, choke people, "no touch knockout" people, etc, which has given the concept of chi a rather bad rap.

We have to keep in mind that the concept of chi was thought up by a people that knew nothing about technology, forms of energy, etc. We know that the body generates electricity, so why is it such a stretch to suppose that focusing chi is simply a way to focus the electricity? It doesn't have to be a wildly mystical energy force.

We already know that we can train ourselves to focus electricity. Go to any physical therapy clinic and check out the guy using the biofeedback machine to train himself to relax an injured muscle - - all that's doing is focusing on the flow of electricity - namely the nerve signals - to the muscle to stop it from contracting. It's not really that much of a stretch to suppose that we could learn to do more with this electric field.

That said, I should mention that I'm not saying yes or no to the question of whether chi is useful in the martial arts. Personally from what I've seen, it's not unless you have a lot of warning that a strike is coming, and if you have that much running you could (recurring Shadowfax theme here!) run instead.

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#132163 - 06/05/03 01:12 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
malanr Offline
Member

Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 66
Loc: IN USA
ok, not to offend anyone, but time to chime.

JohnL - I'm not going to try to tell you what to believe in. I feel the same way about religion that has to do with a absolute power, ie. God. No one has seen her. (Dogma) [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] but there are millions of people that seem to believe in her. I for one don't really believe in anything that I don't have proof of. God is one. But i won't tell anyone not to believe.

Enough with the religious discussion.

I do believe in chi/ki, though. Because I have seen what i believe to be proof of it. I have witnessed people being moved with chi. no, they weren't levitated or thrown, but they were non-violently "pushed" over by chi. i won't try to explain.

If anyone has the opprotunity, please attend a George Dillman seminar on chi. he also has a new book to be released hopefully around October, on chi.

lastly, an open mind is one that can accept questions and is willing to accept an idea after that mind has "proof" the idea works or exists. what that proof IS, is up to the mind itself.
A closed mind is one that is not willing to experiment or have an idea explained or shown to itself. therefore a closed mind is ignorant to any ideas but it's own, and therefore shows little intellegence.

JohnL, I don't know you personally but i think you just haven't presented with proof that your mind will accept. BUT, i will not say that you are ignorant, or have a closed mind. I respect you that much. and I hope you respect me and others in the same way. Please don't rip people apart like that! I try not and if i have, i'm sorry i did.

Remember!: Proof is only to one, not many!

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#132164 - 06/17/03 10:21 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
labRatBioMajor Offline
Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 54
i'm not sure what i think yet. currently, not all that inclined to say that i might one day be able to control energy around me...

however, the beginner's version concepts of ki may be something i can understand and/or benefit from...

i at least know this: when i do naihanchin kata (uses an inward horse stance), it helps me keep my stance firm if i imagine my feet growing deep roots into the ground, or having a magnetic attraction to the ground.

maybe this isn't ki at all... maybe it's just imagining success or some other sort of "let's make a poster of it and hang it in the cubicle" idea like "projecting success" or whatever. focus. having a plan. making my mind tell my body to act as if i were growing deep roots from the soles of my feet into the ground. (weird image, yet helpful).

am i on the right track? assistance/advice/correction requested.

-LK

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#132165 - 06/17/03 10:32 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
I thought I'd try and get in before the multitude chimed in with positive reinforcement.

QUOTE]Originally posted by labRatBioMajor:
i at least know this: when i do naihanchin kata (uses an inward horse stance), it helps me keep my stance firm if i imagine my feet growing deep roots into the ground, or having a magnetic attraction to the ground.
[/QUOTE]

Your imagination is clearly running wild. The stance is kept firm by physical control. The more you train the better the control over your body you will have. Also, as the relevant muscle groups become accustomed to the tasks you are asking them to perform, it will become easier.

The mental imagery you suggest is nothing to do with Ki/chi.

JohnL

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#132166 - 06/29/03 11:01 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Ender Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 2253
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
I beg to differ, JohnL, at least on some note.

The mental picturing labrat has described may not have anything to do with Chi/Ki, However...

It has long been documented by science that mental picturing can help focus your mind towards a single goal, and help any performance. It ahs long been a practice of great ath;etes to visulaize themselves performing well, so that when the time coems to perform, they have a focused mentality that allows them to perform far better than they would have had they not done this mental picturing.

Also, it can be said that Chi/KI (hypothetically stating that it DOES exist at the moment) is refined and used through mental picturing and focus. At my dojo we do a lot of mental picturing of different spectrums of light entering and leaving our bodies while meditating. Why?

It helps empty our mind and allows us to concentrate to a far larger extent.


I would also like to point out, JohnL, that you are not allknowing, neither are any of us. Your word is not law, and in this respect I believe you know absolutely nothing of which you speak, and are talking completely from your point of view. Of course this being the only way anyone could talk on an opinionated forum, but you have stated your opinion as if it is the facts.

This is most surely not the case, I can assure you.

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#132167 - 07/09/03 11:18 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
moe811 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/09/03
Posts: 2
for any one who does not believe in in or doesn't know what to think to get enought facts go to www.psipog.net enter and click newbies. if you dont find enough info there then go to articles and try to find sumthin.ki energy comes from thinking specifically a reaction in the central nervous system that creates energy. also if this still aint enough for you hethens (jk) then check out the video clips in media section of the site posted above. well gollly.

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#132168 - 07/09/03 12:46 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi Moe

I see that this is your first post to the forum (welcome by the way) so I should really take it easy.

God, if that web site impressed you, you must be one of the saddest individuals I know. The videos were pathetic as hell. They even had to say in their decription of the the videos that, "this is real". Oh well that settles it then.

And as for trying to link chi energy to Psychics, telekinetics, and a bunch of other unprooven hocus pocus, that helps the chi pushers no end.

Go earn the $1 million. Do something under close scrutiny and then we'll start to talk.

As I said, welcome to the forum [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

JohnL

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#132169 - 07/10/03 08:41 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Kwun Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/08/03
Posts: 12
Loc: England
Just a matter of interest JohnL, how would you explain the 3-one inch punch?

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#132170 - 07/10/03 08:48 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kwun:
Just a matter of interest JohnL, how would you explain the 3-one inch punch? [/QUOTE]

Body alignment, co-ordinated movement, good technique.
Most demostrations of these have a push element to them that didn't particularly impress me either.

JohnL

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#132171 - 07/16/03 12:36 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Ender Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 2253
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Wow, I looked at that site, and I have only one comment towards them:

You have been watching TOO MUCH Dragon Ball Z and Japanese Anime.

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#132172 - 09/30/03 08:45 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
StillWater Offline
Member

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 101
Microwaves/radiation.
Sonar.
Magnetic fields.
Ifra-Red Light.
Pheromones.
Electricity.
The Atom.

What do all of these things have in common?

1)They all exist.

2) None of them could be "scientifically" measured or proven until the adequate technology for their measurement or observation was invented.

3) They have all existed either as potential or as reality in the world around us since before toilet paper.

4) Trying to prove their existance a few hundred years ago would at best get you argued with and laughed at, and at worst get you tied to a pole and set on fire.

Does this prove that Ki/Chi/Prana/Universal Fluid/"The Force"/the nearly a hundred other names used by nearly a hundred different cultures for one thing that they all believed existed but described differently
is real?
No.
But it should suffice as evidence that even if something can't be proven by the rules or methods of the current paradigm, it may still exist, and may even have a constant and essential role not only in the universe at large but in the immediate and day to day of every one of our lives.

As far as proving that Ki exists, I can't.
Not to you or him or her or anyone except myself (which i have done to my personal satisfaction) because as of yet there is no absolute, undeniable 100% scientifically verified kid tested and mother approved formula to do so.
It's something you have to find for yourself. Or not. As far as that million dollar challenge goes, ive looked at the website before and i dont believe anyone will ever win the million dollars, if for no other reason than that no amount of "proof" will ever suffice to change the mind of someone with a million dollars on the line.

To anyone interested in finding out for themselves, one excellent suggestion was already given: get a session of Reiki treatment.
Better yet, get an attunement. It will cost you some time and probably even some money (oh no! :P) but it would almost certainly convince you if you if you really do have an open mind. (Open mindedness of course does not mean accepting without reasonable consideration, but if you refuse even the possibility of something, your mind is neccessarily closed to it.) You could also look up Kirlian photography or Bio-Electric Feedback, although both are relatively new in terms of whats technologically acheivable.

[This message has been edited by StillWater (edited 09-30-2003).]

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#132173 - 10/02/03 05:08 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
all *very* good points!

Unfortunately it is hard convincing the unconvinceable.... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

I did try to help JohnL with daily remote treatments for 6 weeks for his shoulder injury a few weeks back, however my distant work is not as good as having a hands on treatment for actually feeling the energy.

Good to have another Reiki person aboard! Welcome! I think that makes 3 of us? Plus a number of other energy practioners who use chi.

As my RMT said, there can never be too much Reiki in the world, so I'm spreading it around myself as much as possible thru the 20+ [and rising] practioners I have attuned to date...

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] May the force be with you! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#132174 - 10/19/03 11:17 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Zenmeister Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/19/03
Posts: 18
Loc: Honea Path, South Carolina, US...
You have just described some of the basics of Ki projection. It is naturally occuring in all of us, call it your essence, soul, spirit, karma, etc. And learning to cultivate it takes patience. I'm just at the very tip of the proverbial iceberg but based on the type of ki projection I've witnessed and the fundamentals I'm able to apply on a limited basis, it's one of those things that makes a martial art a true art and not just a sport or street fighting skill. Do more than read a book or website on Ki and go seek professional instruction. You'll be quite amazed at how the mind can push the body beyond normal limits.

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#132175 - 12/20/03 07:10 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Bruce Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 56
Loc: Tucson, Arizona, USA
JohnL,you beleive that chi or ki doesn't exist. If it really didn't exist then why have people who have taken chi seriously and made an effort to learn how to use it, been successful in doing so. Just do as Reiki suggested and get a reiki treatment.

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#132176 - 12/21/03 09:51 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
The thing is stillwater is that people used to believe in Chi a thousand years ago but do not now. Just like people believed the world was flat a thousand years ago. Whereas no one new what radiation was a thousand years ago, they do now.

By the way if soeone started blabbering about microwaves a thousand years ago without any scientific evidence then they are crazy.

Bruce Lee

Why do so many kids believe in Santa Clause?

[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 12-21-2003).]

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#132177 - 12/22/03 12:08 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Just to throw gas on the fire-kirlian photography(discovered in 1939-not recent or hi-tech) has been proven to be a hoax.
Pointing to that as proof is not doing yourself a favor.

What amazes me about reiki followers,chi believers is the garbage you guys accept as evidence.The fuzzy logic displayed by websites,books, etc that some of you point out.Stuff that a 5 year old can see thru or stuff that was disproven 100 years ago.There seems to be no logical questioning or seeking outside sources for verification of claims made by certain people. This leads me to believe this is your religion-not a logical belief.

[This message has been edited by nekogami13 (edited 12-22-2003).]

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#132178 - 12/22/03 07:55 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bruce Lee:
JohnL,you beleive that chi or ki doesn't exist. If it really didn't exist then why have people who have taken chi seriously and made an effort to learn how to use it, been successful in doing so. Just do as Reiki suggested and get a reiki treatment.[/QUOTE]

I haven't said that I don't belive that Chi/ki exists, just that I want it proven.

JohnL

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#132179 - 12/22/03 12:53 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
why?
[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]

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#132180 - 12/22/03 01:04 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Reiki:
why?
[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

Because it's there!

Or so the chi pushers say [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Merry Xmas.

JohnL

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#132181 - 03/24/04 06:06 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
MonyBG Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/23/04
Posts: 14
Hi im really interested in ki.
I want to learn it, but not abuse it.
Can you please send me an e-mail giving me some starting exrcises. I'm a begginer, but i dont know where to begin.

Please write back at Mony1234ishere@yahoo.com

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#132182 - 03/30/04 06:01 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
check out the posts in the energy arts and meditation sections.

u will find all u need there. If not, use google or another search engine for specifics.

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#132183 - 04/02/04 03:06 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
MonyBG Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/23/04
Posts: 14
TO REIKI!!!

Hi im looking for answers.
Can you tell me how to do better ki.
I just beggan, I need a few pointers.
Esspecially on the ki ball and on training and breathing.
Please reply.

Thank you

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#132184 - 04/09/04 01:26 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
chime Offline
Stranger

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 4
Loc: elkhart, Indiana, USA
It seems to me that John's theory is that there is no such thing as chi, and unless we can prove what he perceives to be chi exists, then there is no such thing as what we experience as chi, even though the two things are not the same. Its as if I am telling him there are such things as cats, and he won't believe in cats until I show him an elephant.

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#132185 - 11/19/04 09:40 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Anonymous
Unregistered


the universe is made of waves (energy) wether this be light waves, sound waves matter waves or many of the other forms of waves it is what makes all that we see hear taste and touch. many things can concentrate these waves (lasers, crystals, magnetic feilds) so why not the human mindbody. i beleive chi is in essence the concentration of all the inert energy surrounding us and can have unlimited potential.

i beleive also that internal martial arts have a lot to offer even those that find it difficult to beleive in chi because it also teaches awarness of the body ,increasing its strength, through better co ordination of movements, stronger impulses to the muscles and control of the circulations of the body

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#132186 - 11/22/04 01:26 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Why oh why is it that the marial arts attrect such a collection of people willing and wanting to believe that in nonsense like the indefinable, inexplicable chi?

There is nothing, repeat, nothing cited here as examples of chi that cannot be explained through practised body mechanics.

I see it all the time - people who say "I cant explain it, it must be experienced" or throw some ridiculous zen proverb at you to try and cover up the fact that they dont understand it themselves.

It sickens me.

G

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#132187 - 11/30/04 01:29 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jamoni:
"'ve flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field controls my destiny."
"Hokey religions, and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side."
How can you guys argue with Han Solo? He made the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs, fer Pete's sake!
[/QUOTE]

I'll argue with him! Parsecs are measures of DISTANCE (about 3.26 light years), not time! So it's like bragging about winning a distance race in less than 12 feet.

But, let me jump in on the side of JohnL & Han Solo. KI? Maybe. But give me that blaster of a right hand punch.

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#132188 - 12/11/04 09:03 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Also just because you havent seen it or felt it doesnt mean it isnt there. God is the greatest example of this.[/QUOTE]

I don't believe in God. However I do believe in life force. Ki is essentially just another term for the words 'life force'.

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#132189 - 12/15/04 04:37 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Anonymous
Unregistered


hey JohnL, check out the "Tao of Physics" by Fritjof Capra. he put's forward some interesting ideas. although to a thorough skeptic it still may be unconvincing.

matt

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#132190 - 12/25/04 12:20 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Reiki I have tried your experiment and I felt force pushing my hands a pasrt. Strange, because when I was little I "use" to make my hands give off heat? At least my mother use to tell me this, is this chi? I have never really heard of it until this thread.

JohnL you do have a point in proving it but they also have points. At this point I am in the middle. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif[/IMG]

Plus that site with moving "objects" I have studied magic with a magician (fake magic illusions!!!!). I know how to mimmic what they have done with (magic term) frog hair in public. I have even seen my teacher do up close although I have not done it my self. SO these VIDS could be shot down.

But I dont deny feeling something and would like to explore this further. Could you e-mail me Reiki at Julayne4@aol.com or someone that can tell me where to start except for the forum already stated.

Thanks.Julayne [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif[/IMG]

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