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#132135 - 04/02/03 11:35 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Also just because you havent seen it or felt it doesnt mean it isnt there. God is the greatest example of this.

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#132136 - 04/03/03 06:31 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Chen Zen
Haven't got time to respond fully to your points but will try to later today.

In the meantime, keep religion out of the discussion. I joined a martial arts forum. I will not discuss my or anyones religion, or lack of, on this site.

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#132137 - 04/03/03 10:27 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I do not wish to speak on religion either it was simply an example. Here is another. You cannot see air, you cannot touch it or taste it but you know its there. Same thing.

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#132138 - 04/03/03 11:16 AM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Finally time to reply.

Scholar asked if I had checked out Chi/Ki, whatever you want to call it.

To be honest I don't know how!

I have attended a variety of Seminars/Classes Etc. with a number of so called experts, that are supposed to contain examples of "inner power" but none have satisfied my search for proof that it exists.

The majority of times, the examples shown rely on people saying what they feel as opposed to what can be seen. The problem with this is that due to the (I believe) mistaken attitude of not asking questions for fear of offending, many people claim things wanting to feel a part of the group as opposed to being honest with themselves. I call it the Emperor's Clothes Syndrome, for those of you familiar with the childrens story.

Other times, generally when it is claimed that physical results are apparent as a result of an inner energy source, the examples have been very simply explained by body mechanics/physical positioning/physical technique. When this is questioned the people giving the seminar invariably say that they are using only inner energy. When questioned in more depth, the general response is that you shouldn't be rude by questioning.

As stated in one of my earlier posts, I believe it's our obligation to question, to ensure these charlatans are not allowed to continue peddling their snake oil to unsuspecting novices.

Chen Zen
My apologies if I upset you earlier, as it wasn't intended.
However, if you are going to use examples to rebut my opinions I believe you should use better ones to illustrate your case.
The use of air as an example of something that is not seen but exists is a poor example. The presence of air has been proven scientifically rather than by a leap of faith, can be felt by moving through it. As far as tasting air, I don't know. I think you probably only taste what contaminates it.

Regards

John L



[This message has been edited by JohnL (edited 04-03-2003).]

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#132139 - 04/03/03 12:43 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
John, the response I gave about air and such was all I had at the time. I understand your point on the emperors clothes and the "miracle" salesman. Look at chi this way, we have not yet explored even a fraction of the galaxy, have no idea what is there. But I guarnatee you that there are planets out there. Have you heard of Bhudda? He was said to possess such chi power that he was able to concentrate on a spot in a wall and after years of concentration a hole was worn thru this wall. Chi is the moment when you are sparring and react before you ever think about it, the way you know what your opponent is doing or thinking before they do. It is focus on a level near to enlightenment. Does it make you throw fireballs? No. I did not mean to be so rude in my post but I feel that if you are prepared to question something then there is a better way to do it than attacking the person or their way of thinking thats all. Chi is something that is diffrent to everyone and everyone must find there own ways to unlock it but personally, I know for me it exist. That is all I need. Chen Zen

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#132140 - 04/03/03 01:29 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Scholar Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 472
Loc: Brockton
John L, I respect your scientific approach, thank you for your consideration.

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#132141 - 04/03/03 04:01 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
As Chen Zen has already so eloquently said, if you haven't tried it don't rubbish it. No manner of seminars and demonstrations will convince you if you have such a closed mind.

We know that air is there and yet can we see it? We can feel ki, yet it is not visible, is this not similar to knowing viruses & bacteria exist and yet because we cannot see them with the bare eye, saying they do not exist?

I work with Reiki on a daily basis both for my family healing and within the dojo for anyone who gets hurt. As for using qui gong to build up personal ki, the results of this have been proven over centuries by the Chinese.

Religion IMHO doesn't come into the equation.

Ki is ki, it is there whether you care to believe in it or not.

You can measure the ki emitted from the hands of a normal person..

Ok here's your scientific approach, [as an engineer I believe in science in assisting with facts and figures]: <I quote from one of the qui gong sites>

Scientific research over the last few years has arrived at an explanation for qi emission in terms of infrasonic waves. Infrasonic waves are sound waves vibrating below 20 Hertz (Hz) - too slow to be audible to the human ear.

Every living person emits these waves from the palms of their hands, generally in 8 to 12.5 Hz range at an intensity of 40 to 50 decibels (dB).

In one research study, 29 Americans with no prior qigong training had the intensity of the infrasonic waves from their palms measured both before and after a week of qigong practice. Before the training, the average intensity for the group was 47dB. After one week of training, the average intensity rose to 54dB.

Well, a 7 decibel increase might not sound like a lot, until you realize that decibels are a logarithmic unit, meaning that you cannot add and subtract them like ordinary numbers.

So when these 29 students had an average increase of 7dB, they were actually producing five times the energy after qigong training! And as part of the same study, one Qigong master generated waves of 78db, which is 1000 times greater than the average person emits. <end quote>

I will add that I do a lot of work with acoustics and measurement of sound, both audible and inaudible frequency ranges using soundmeters, also with particulate in airstreams and its measurement using particle counters and other such analysis methods for things like clean rooms and hospital operating theatres.

Taste/smell of air is as a result of contaminants and/or the amount of oxygen present.

I have treated people who were completely & totally negative to the idea of ki. Once they felt the reiki energy that they drew into their bodies <HEAT, lots & lots of it!!>, they changed their minds rather quickly...

So John L, don't rubbish what you haven't tried. As a martial artist you should know better.

I come from a country [New Zealand] where we actively question but also experiment with all things without having closed minds. That's why life is always such fun!

Our MA training system involves internal arts such as Qui gong and Reiki as well as all other aspects of self defence, "normal" type karate training, pressure point work, some aikido stuff, small circle work, weapons and grappling.

It's fun and I've learnt a lot since starting on this path, but I am always ready to learn more... and as the oldest member of our dojo I feel it's my duty to keep learning and teaching.

My challenge to you is - try it for yourself! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]




[This message has been edited by Reiki (edited 04-03-2003).]

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#132142 - 04/03/03 04:32 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Why is it that whenever anyone says "Prove what you have told me," they have a "Closed mind"?
Is an open mind one that believes whatever it is told? Sounds useless. You say that ki is emitted from the hands, but CAN BE MEASURED AS LOW FREQUENCY SOUND. Doesn't this mean that the hands emit low frequency sound? Where does the ki come in?

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#132143 - 04/03/03 04:45 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Sorry Chen Zen, I hope it doesn't make you feel like I'm picking on you, but I thought a couple of your points were worth commenting on.

"Have you heard of Bhudda? He was said to possess such chi power that he was able to concentrate on a spot in a wall and after years of concentration a hole was worn thru this wall."

Wholly unverifyable. A matter of belief when no proof is available.

"Chi is the moment when you are sparring and react before you ever think about it, the way you know what your opponent is doing or thinking before they do."

I don't believe that this has anything to do with Chi. This is a product of training. Well trained MA's can put an opponent in a position from which a predictable movement will occur. This is body mechanics/timing and observation, not chi. This experience can be exagerated when you practice with people you are familiar with, as being accustomed to there movements and abilities will allow you even more accurate anticipation of what they are going to do next than with strangers.

Having given everyone on this forum a hard time when they start to suggest that chi is an effective force of some kind and if as you describe it, knowing what people are going to do before they do, I think I should suggest how chi can be effectively tested.

The "chi master" should be sat down and have all external sensors deprived. (blindfold, ear plugs, nose clip, solid floor so he can't feel anyone coming through vibrations.) We'll allow him to keep his mouth open so he can breathe however he should have had some extra strong mints to nullify his sense of taste. It would then be reasonable to assume that his external senses have been isolated and he can only now rely on his chi, or inner feelings.

Someone standing behind him, at a time of their choosing, should then whack him with something. A baseball bat (for the vindictive) a rolled up newspaper would suit me fine.

All the chi master has to do is say stop, just before he gets hit.

"It is focus on a level near to enlightenment."

This quote would appear to suggest that martial arts ivolve some form of enlightenment. This is a whole other subject.

As I said, I don't want it to appear that I'm picking on you, but when your posts describe things that I don't agree with, I respond.

Regards

JohnL


[This message has been edited by JohnL (edited 04-03-2003).]

[This message has been edited by JohnL (edited 04-03-2003).]

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#132144 - 04/03/03 05:28 PM Re: Ki, the power to control energy or not?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I dont feel picked on John and I will ask you this: Have you ever seen shoalin Monks do a live performance? I was lucky enough to in 96 and they can make anyone believe in chi I think. The ability to take a full force kick to the throat blindfolded and never flinch fall or cry out in pain and never show any sign of physical damage. No bruis scrape or blood. Keep in mind they are blindfolded the whole time so that they cannot flex and protect the throat with the neck muscles. Ive seen them lay on spikebeds and have bricks broken on there body with sledge hammers and not so much as a drop of blood. They walked up flights of stairs made up of sword blades barefoot and other amazing feets and they make it look as if this is something that should be able to be done naturally. This is chi.

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