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#131360 - 03/04/05 05:48 AM justified self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


This happened to me a couple of weeks ago.

Me and a couple of my friends were pub crawling, and having a great time.

At some point I went to take a piss. The place is stinking, I slam the door open(i was drunk) and accidently hit some guy. He gets all pissed off, asking me if I got a problem with him and getting all up in my face.

In the beginning I just try to talk him down, apologising, but as he kept being aggressive I began getting a little nervous. Maybe I couldn't talk him down? He was very close to me, I couldn't see if he was picking a knife up from his pocket, and any suckerpunch would have made a sucker of me(get it) at this range. So I decide to shove him away with a hard push in the chest and tell him to stay away from me. This did not have the desired effect. He gets pissed off and comes towards me, with an awfully telegraphed haymaker. I punched him in the face with a jab followed by boxing blasts. He stumbles back into a wall then a knee'd him in the groin.

My question is, was my attack justified?
I feel I could have avoided the fight, but not without letting my self be exposed to a POTENTIAL attack. But maybe my shoving him was what started the whole physical thing?!?

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#131361 - 03/04/05 06:19 AM Re: justified self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Given that you were drunk, I think you did quite well in that situation. I'm glad that you (unlike most people) tried to talk the situation down. Also, sounds like the guy was looking for a fight anyway.

Also be assertive, apologise once and then ask him to please move. (If he just stands there, back off to where your friends are for a minute, he's not going to stand in the toilet doorway all night)

Perhaps slowly backing away out of the toilet and back to your seat for a while would have been possible. (Keeping your hands open in front of you)

In the case of avoiding the fight, just remember not to slam doors open when you are drunk. That would have avoided the whole thing.

Since I try to keep out of this situation, I don't really know the best response to take. Someone else is bound to correct me here if I'm wrong though.

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#131362 - 03/04/05 06:44 AM Re: justified self defence?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi kook ha:

Let me understand;

You got drunk.

You hit a guy who was doing nothing to you with a door because you were not sober enough to open a door properly.

He gots upset (well there's a suprise) but doesn't throw anything.

You initiated the physical contact by shoving him hard in the chest.

When he decides to defend himself from your assault, you punch and kick him into submission.

And you ask, "Was it my fault?"

Of course it was you moron! With or without witnesses, you're lucky you haven't been arrested for assaulting this innocent bystander who was just standing there having a pee when some drunk came in and whaled on him.

Lessons to be learned;

Don't get drunk.

Don't start fights.

Grow up.

JohnL

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#131363 - 03/04/05 09:44 AM Re: justified self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Nice way of putting it.

kook ha, I didn't read the part about you shoving him earlier. Not a good idea at all, initiating physical contact is a *big* no-no.

[This message has been edited by Leo_E_49 (edited 03-04-2005).]

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#131364 - 03/04/05 10:18 AM Re: justified self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


99% of all fights I've seen or been involved with were caused by too much alcohol. Either one drunk bumps another drunk or some drunk hits on another drunks girlfriend/wife.
Your fault my friend...don't get drunk and don't hang around drunks...have not been in a fight since I took that advice myself.

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#131365 - 03/04/05 05:43 PM Re: justified self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


DON'T DRINK! Well maybe a little wine, a beer when your friends come over or a wine cooler if you're a WUSS.

FTR, I'm not trying to provoke you there, it's just that wine coolers have a stereo type of being a 'wussie drink'.

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#131366 - 03/04/05 05:53 PM Re: justified self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


If your gonna drink then eat a lot of food so you won't get too drunk.A little rum will make you hardy though,but don't drink too much.The point is that he deserved it.Bunch of punks think that they have to be cool and tough all the time,it only shows how weak they are.The reason some people are like that is because they're really self concious and are scared about others thinking they're wimps.

P.S. Nextime break someones neck.

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#131367 - 03/06/05 10:55 AM Re: justified self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


This is a very difficult situation - whether to risk not being able to see an attack, and it was good that you initially tried to talk yourself out of it. However, I think it might've been best to push him firmly whilst walking away at the same time.
Not shoving, but more like creating a distance between yourselves.
That way, if he did try to attack you, you might've been able to see the danger coming.
However, I didn't agree with you kneeing him against a wall, because it sounded like he was giving up if he allowed you to back him into a wall, so perhaps that bit was a little too far.
But then, you were drunk, so maybe you weren't in total control of your actions. But now you know if this happens again, just wait a little longer to make 100% sure it was going to result in an attack, instead of THINKING that it was going to be.

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#131368 - 03/06/05 12:00 PM Re: justified self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Seriously read this for an idea of what you really did: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/fight_selfdefense.html

Then search for the legal issues regarding self defense in your country and state.

In fact, I reckon anyone with a "Was this self defense?" question should seriously consider reading that article.

[This message has been edited by Leo_E_49 (edited 03-06-2005).]

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#131369 - 03/07/05 01:09 PM Re: justified self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
Hi kook ha:

Let me understand;

You got drunk.

You hit a guy who was doing nothing to you with a door because you were not sober enough to open a door properly.

He gots upset (well there's a suprise) but doesn't throw anything.

You initiated the physical contact by shoving him hard in the chest.

When he decides to defend himself from your assault, you punch and kick him into submission.

And you ask, "Was it my fault?"

Of course it was you moron! With or without witnesses, you're lucky you haven't been arrested for assaulting this innocent bystander who was just standing there having a pee when some drunk came in and whaled on him.

Lessons to be learned;

Don't get drunk.

Don't start fights.

Grow up.

JohnL
[/QUOTE]

Possibly the stupidest thing I have ever read!

[This message has been edited by Lethal Striker (edited 03-07-2005).]

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#131370 - 03/07/05 02:19 PM Re: justified self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


johnl isnt stupid...kook ha initiated contact, thus is the attacker...if you ask me, he is lucky he isnt in jail right now...be gald the other guy didnt press charges

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#131371 - 03/07/05 03:01 PM Re: justified self defence?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lethal Striker:
Possibly the stupidest thing I have ever read!

[This message has been edited by Lethal Striker (edited 03-07-2005).]
[/QUOTE]

Why?

JohnL

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#131372 - 03/07/05 06:48 PM Re: justified self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


lethal is probably the martial artist that gives all the responsible ones bad names

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#131373 - 03/08/05 01:45 AM Re: justified self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


First of all this topic was about self defence. Spare me your moral lecture. Getting drunk on a weekly basis is quite normal where I come from.

Teenagers are allowed to buy alcohol in grocery stores and supermarkets by age 15, and still many start even earlier, because a few years ago you could buy alcohol no matter your age.

To drink in a nightclub you have to be 18, but most teenagers start clubbing at age 16, some even younger at age 14-15.

Second of all, whether I was drunk enough actually has nothing to do with the whole self defence situation.

I only told you so you'd understand that my judgement was impared(spelling), but lets set up the situation again.

I open the door to get out from the toilet booth, and accidently open the door(hard) into some guy.
Being a nice guy and all, of course I apologize, also telling him that it was unintentional. Then he gets all up in my face, his chest actually pressing against mine, still walking forward putting more pressuse on me back towards the toilet. I press back, telling him to back of, he don't, I shove him and from here you know the rest.

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#131374 - 03/08/05 09:08 AM Re: justified self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Did you try to back off first?

In legal (not only moral) terms, in most countries, your intent must be to remove yourself from danger and you must show this intent. Otherwise it's called fighting, not self defense. Plain and simple.

Our morality doesn't concern this issue. It has no bearing on what sentence/charge you will get if you start a fight and get caught doing it.

You're also lucky that guy didn't get his mates to start something with you. I'm fairly sure being outnumbered and drunk is a bad, bad thing. I presume he doesn't know where you live either.

[This message has been edited by Leo_E_49 (edited 03-08-2005).]

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#131375 - 03/08/05 11:07 AM Re: justified self defence?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi kook ha:

I replied to your original post and believe the thughts I gave were reasonable, however your subsequent post seems to require some comment;

"Spare me your moral lecture. Getting drunk on a weekly basis is quite normal where I come from."

If you choose to get drunk on a weekly basis that's none of my business, however it contributed to your course of action. As such you should look at how you got into the situation in the first place and if getting drunk is a part of it, maybe you shouldn't get drunk. That's not a moral lecture, only identifying a causation for the trouble and suggesting that you eliminate it.

"Teenagers are allowed to buy alcohol in grocery stores and supermarkets by age 15, and still many start even earlier, because a few years ago you could buy alcohol no matter your age."

So. There's a difference between being able to buy alcohol and going out, getting drunk and starting trouble.

"To drink in a nightclub you have to be 18, but most teenagers start clubbing at age 16, some even younger at age 14-15."

That doesn't mean that this won't cause associated problems.

"Second of all, whether I was drunk enough actually has nothing to do with the whole self defence situation."

Of course it does. Being drunk will impair your judgement making fights more likely to happen and will also affect your ability to function and therefore defend yourself. I see neither of these things as a positive.

" open the door to get out from the toilet booth, and accidently open the door(hard) into some guy.
Being a nice guy and all, of course I apologize, also telling him that it was unintentional. Then he gets all up in my face, his chest actually pressing against mine, still walking forward putting more pressuse on me back towards the toilet. I press back, telling him to back of, he don't, I shove him and from here you know the rest."

I stand by my earlier response. You seem to be wanting a warm and fuzzy response to tell you that you were justified. I'm not giving you that as I'm just not warm and fuzzy.

Basically, you were stupid, learn to live with it. Put it down to a learning experience.

It could have been worse;

1. As you were drunk, your ability to handle yourself was diminished and you could have been beaten to a pulp.

2. The guy that you initiated the problem with could have known how to handle himself and you could have been taken apart.

3. The guy might have had some freinds who saw you do this and taken it upon themselves to kick you into oblivion.

4. You could have been arrested by the police, had no defence and spent the next few years as a close confident of Bubba!

From your description of what happened I believe any of the above 4 points could have happened. You were lucky. Fine. But don't expect me to say you were in the right. You weren't.

JohnL

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#131376 - 03/09/05 02:19 AM Re: justified self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't mean to be rude, but you are addressing a lot of issues that I didn't really asked for.

I'm asking whether or not there were any real danger from this guy or not, instead you start lecturing about alcohol and public behaviour.

I was drunk and could have been beaten to a pulp. True, but had I been sober I could have been beaten up too.
You seem to focus alot on my being drunk.

What if I had told you this, story's still the same, just told differently:

I was at a bar, and in the toilet I accidently bump the toilet door into this drunk dude. Off course I apologize, but he walks right into me, asking me if a want a fight.

I push him off and tell him to stay away, then he rushes forward, telegraphing his right haymaker so I blast him with boxing blasts, and then knee him in the groin.

This was what happened. This is what you need to know.

JohnL if you seriously think I initiated the trouble then I say this to you... grow up. Bumping someone with a door, then apologizing can never be said to be initiating trouble.

Initiating trouble would be something like... say, walking into some guy who accidently bumped you with a door and apologizes, staying right up in his face, asking him whether he wants a fight, not being willing to accept an apology or back down, still asking if that person wants to fight.

You know what. Writing this, having to play the incident over and over in my head, I believe that I was justified. I bumped a door into a drunk and apologizes, but he won't accept the apology, asking if I have a problem with him, I explain to him that I don't, and that the door thing was an accident and he still wants to fight me. You know what, I'm actually glad I ripped that guys face right off. Maybe now he'll think twice before asking anybody if they want a fight.

And yes he might have had friends, but I was there with friends to, don't think I didn't give this any thought at all. Off course I did.

But you're 100% right about he might have been able to handle him self... that's exactly why I wouldn't let him back me up into the toilet booth. How the f*** do you defend yourself from a guy who is easily 6 inches taller, knows how to fight, while in a toilet booth. I pushed him back and asked him to stay away from me, he didn't, he felt the consequenses.

[This message has been edited by kook ha (edited 03-09-2005).]

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#131377 - 03/09/05 04:09 PM Re: justified self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


kook ha

I don't believe it was self-defense, maybe you were justified, maybe you were not(He DID seen to be wanting a fight), but You did make an agressive movement the could have hurt him before he did(you "pushed him in the chest" instead of tryng to put some distance between you and him in a less agressive way.
About the fight itself, depending on your skills and knowledge in less violent submission techniques you could have tried to win the fight whithout hurting him(but you certainly shouldn't have tried if you don't have the training to do that), and it seens that kneeing against the wall was a bit excessive.

Hope I have been of help

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#131378 - 03/09/05 08:21 PM Re: justified self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


First of all you were drunk so maybe your perception was change or off a bit.....

*Inuyasha*

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#131379 - 03/10/05 07:52 AM Re: justified self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I find this morally and lawfully objectionable.

#1 - You hit the guy first with a door.

#2 - The guy never laid a finger on you. You did all the hitting.

#3 - You chose to get drunk and get into this situation.

You are a jerk and you should have been arrested! > [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]

This is NOT a case of defense. You were completely offensive. You an @$$hole. End of story.

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#131380 - 03/10/05 08:09 AM Re: justified self defence?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
dadoody5

Do not come onto this forum and post inappropriately and abusively. You have done so on a number of threads and it is unacceptable.

You did not put an e-mail address on your profile or I would have PM'd you.

Please moderate your posts.

Thankyou

JohnL

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#131381 - 03/10/05 08:19 AM Re: justified self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dadoody5.

I'M the asshole? If that's truely your opinion then you're a jerk.

You seem to actually think that if some guy accidently hits you with a door then that's legit reason to pick a fight with him.

Yes I was drunk, no I did not choose to have some drunk wanting to pick a fight with me for opening a door. I placed myself in that situation, yes, but so does every pregnant woman run down by some drunk driver.

Finding yourself in a situation you placed yourself in, doesn't mean that you wanted that situation to happen you f...... moron.

Could I have opened that door quietly... yes. Should some guy act in an intimidating manner, threadening me.

If you choose to get worked up about some kid accidently hitting you with a door AND apologizing then you should have your a$$ kicked too, butt wipe.

Kagemusha.

I did push him, but I only did it to create space between us, as he was both bigger and physicly stronger I couldn't do so in a manner less violent than pushing him. I COULD have taken a step back, but that would place me in a 3x4 feet toilet booth trapped by some guy who wanted to kick my a$$.

Dadoody5,
by the way the only reason that I did all the hitting was because he didn't land that haymaker.

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#131382 - 03/10/05 06:48 PM Re: justified self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


well man, the guys are right, you getting drunk DID contribute to the situation, but given the fact that you WERE drunk, yes you probably should have done something as your defenses would have been down
Don't shove though. If you shove a guy, he can't let you go without striking a blow to his ego. Instead try to run past him, that way, he'll probably just laugh, call you a wuss a let you go, his head ten times bigger than before. Remember, in true self-defense, a blow to your ego is better than a blow to your face

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#131383 - 04/01/05 07:48 PM Re: justified self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


how in the hell would you remember that fight if you were drunk. probablly some made up story to make you look tough asshole

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#131384 - 04/01/05 10:51 PM Re: justified self defence?
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
I've been doing a lot of business traveling these last few weeks.

I appoligize for allowing drunks to discuss their fighting prowness.

This discussion is closed.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

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