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#128538 - 02/04/05 05:08 PM Jabs
Anonymous
Unregistered


This probably has been asked alot, but how does Aikido deal with short, quick jabs? It seems that trying to get a lock or a throw off them is really hard; trying to get in close for something else can result in some damage, and taking hits is not very "aikido like" (god knows how many times Sensi has lectured me on getting out of the line of fire!)

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#128539 - 02/05/05 08:06 AM Re: Jabs
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Liquid Rock:
This probably has been asked alot, but how does Aikido deal with short, quick jabs? It seems that trying to get a lock or a throw off them is really hard; trying to get in close for something else can result in some damage, and taking hits is not very "aikido like" (god knows how many times Sensi has lectured me on getting out of the line of fire!)[/QUOTE]

This is an area I feel aikido has its' weakness in.

My boyfriend used to box and we've been showing one another different techniques. I get him to show me his jabs and other strikes and I see how i could defend myself. I'm still learning and don't have any solution as yet. The only way I can see at the moment is to do a super quick iriminage, or irimi tenkan. I know boxers seem to only focus on upper body strikes and this maybe something we could exploit. I also thought maybe irimi, drop to your knees and atemi in the groin area. I'd appreciate any information and guidance if anyone has any better ideas!

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#128540 - 02/05/05 08:20 AM Re: Jabs
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Look at Aiki-ken kumitachi...uke tsukis or strikes shomen...your response is to deflect the incomming attack and to futher develop the situation until you can counter...same thing for jabs...if you look at training as taught in a book...then you would respond y to x...but Aikido is not so static...with a jab I would deflect the jab with a down strike, on the outside or inside, and try to develop the situation futher until I could complete a technique. If not disengage and start all over. When someone attacks you, they expose themselves...they present an opening for counter attacks.
The only weekness I see in Aikido is the imagination of the practitioner.
Ed

[This message has been edited by Ed Glasheen (edited 02-05-2005).]

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#128541 - 02/05/05 02:28 PM Re: Jabs
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I got hell last time I tried to get some response to this so brace yourself. The last time I posed this question, it was said that you handle a jab the same you do any other punch(tsuki). This is anything but the truth if you are dealing with a boxer, not a student throwing jabs, but a boxer, its a different story. They train differently, and working with a live boxer will give you a different perspective. I basically agree with Ed except for one point
"If not disengage and start all over"

Having trained in Okinawan Karate and sparred for years, once you get in, you have taken away his space, back off and start again and you have given the boxer more room and energy to come back at you. Its like taking the oxygen out of a flame then douse it with lighter fluid. Get in and get the job done and get out, but not disengage, this gives the boxer too much room. Take away his space. Also when you disengage from a joing locking point of view, you are out of range to get your locks. I personally try to stay on either side of his lead leg,(mostly on the outside, to make him move to my inside) depending on how I want to counterAttack. In a real situation I am going to take out his suspension, ie the legs, you take alot of his art away if you weaken his legs. I also like to pari and hook their ribs when they jab. but for real serious work, take out the knee, but thats not Aiki.

What we do in our art, is we have added trapping to what we do. Trapping is also a very good way to set up Aiki movements,so if you can trap the lead hand, you can set them up for throws, takedwons or even locks. If we are only talking Aiki concepts here, I would tai Sabaki my way out of range of his punches, until he came into my range for a counter. If you talk about adding striking, I work the thorasic area, jabs to the chest etc, to tire his body. Hooking the ribs, as a counter works real well. Self defense, take out the legs, make his base weak.

Remeber there are 2 ways to attack, go to them, or let them come to you. I prefer the latter, but once he comes to me and I counter, then I move in. I would never try to manipulate the jab though, its just too hard to try and catch.

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#128542 - 02/06/05 03:23 PM Re: Jabs
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned in the several times this has been brought up is understanding the intent of a jab.

For instance, Chanters and her boyfriend have boxed, so what do you use your jab for?

Is it to keep your opponent at bay? Well if you are an aikidoka facing a boxer, this probably isn't what they are doing.

Is it to bring the opponents hands up to create a low opening for a kick? Hmmmm, this might be something to think about when you devise you aiki response... If I've got two hands trying to trap that jab and sink in the lock, am I going to get a front kick in the diaphragm, or a roundhouse to the knee?

Is that jab just to establish range? If this is the case my footwork is key to keeping the jabber from establishing his tempo.

In most cases, the jab is intended to set up something else. Recognize this and you'll see that the jab is often the smoke and you don't have to deal with it, but rather the fire that's coming next.

Off course this isn't to say you should just take in on the chin!

Chris

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#128543 - 02/06/05 08:59 PM Re: Jabs
Anonymous
Unregistered


To further add to senseilou's post, I think the moment you get inside the boxer's space, you need to control their center straight away. "Trapping" is one way to do it, but there are other more subtle ways, which involve the entire body.

Taking out the "suspension", isn't as "un-aiki" as suggested. The "typical" jujitsu response to a boxer jab is to feign and "play" the boxing game, then quickly take knee of the lead foot out. A simple foot jam to the knee usually does the trick, and any jujitsu response can also be made more aiki in nature.

Typically, a jujitsu response after taking the knee out, would be to enter in, strike/cavity press and control, for a takedown, lock or throw - depending.

I don't why it should be any different to how an aikidoka should respond, except for the brutality or subtlety of "intent".

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