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#128101 - 12/14/04 10:11 AM www.martialarts.com
Robaikido Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
Here is how they describe aikido, would you agree or not?

Aikido

Aikido's non-violent self-defense emphasizes minimum effort for maximum effect, a strategy uniquely effective against the fast punches and kicks of modern unarmed combat. Clear logical instruction by a fully certified aikido instructor leads the students to understand how to harmlessly render any attacker helpless to continue his or her aggression, regardless of relative size, speed, or strength

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#128102 - 12/14/04 10:59 AM Re: www.martialarts.com
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Rob, do you agree with this description?

I would disagree with that description and I would question whether the author of that description:
1. Had any first hand experience with Aikido
2. Had any martial arts experience at all

The biggest problem I have with this description is the continuation of this insane idea that any art is going to teach "any person, to harmlessly render any attacker helpless to continue his or her aggression, regardless of relative size, speed, or strength". This is not a question of aikido's effectiveness but I simply don't believe that there is anyone out there that could handle a skilled, athletic attacker without hurting them.

Chris

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#128103 - 12/14/04 12:32 PM Re: www.martialarts.com
Robaikido Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
I think it depends on what you mean by hurting someone. For example, with nikkyo, it hurts like hell, especially when done fully and quickly. I think when someone mentions aikido and not hurting someone, it must mean not to leave them with and skeletal damage, broken bones etc, but pain 'hurt' must obviousy be ok.

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#128104 - 12/14/04 01:11 PM Re: www.martialarts.com
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Rob,

I'm guessing that you either believe the description or want to. That's cool, we all have to make up our own minds.

Sure, pain is temporary and I'll grant that it doesn't fall under what I consider "hurting" someone in this case.

But let's look at nikkyo as an example. Have you run across many aikidoka that can put nikkyo on a fully resisting attacker that is trying with full intent to hurt the aikidoka with their full speed and power?

So let's say I'm coming after you and my full intention is to do harm to you. You get that nikkyo on in a split second as I'm fully trying to beat you down. I'm not thinking about taking ukemi or "feeling the technique" I'm thinking I'm going to bust your head... If you get that nikkyo under these conditions, my wrist is going to be wrecked for a long time.

Ever ask you sensei if you can attack him at full speed? Ever tried it at a seminar? Every instance of this I've ever seen has had the same response "sure, but I'm not responsible for what happens to you". Doesn't sound much like no harm is coming to the attacker!

If an aikidoka can neutralize any attack from any attacker without hurting them, then at some level of practice good ukemi isn't necessary. You could attack your sensei with anything and everything without having to worry about taking a roll or a fall or getting hurt because he would neutralize your attack without hurting you. The worst you would suffer might be a little soreness. If this is sounding familiar and you guys are doing this, please let me know where you train cause I sure haven't seen it.

It's interesting that aikidoka will tell you on one hand that "we learn to end an encounter without hurting anyone" but then again they claim "we can't practice full speed cause the uke will get broken" and maybe you've heard the old "we don't enter tournaments because the technique is designed to break things"....

I just don't think you can have it both ways.

Chris

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#128105 - 12/14/04 02:16 PM Re: www.martialarts.com
Robaikido Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
Actually, I do agree, because I have heard that. I suppose because the ukemi will be so difficult to take. So, if i train in aikido in the dojo, where we do not cause harm to attackers, but on the way home I get attacked and break someones wrist with a kotegaeshi, is that still aikido, or not?

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#128106 - 12/14/04 05:02 PM Re: www.martialarts.com
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Rob,

Good question and now you get into the "what does aikido mean to you" question. You'll have to resolve this for yourself and your answer will likely change with time.

Here's my opinion:

If you are honest with yourself about why you study aikido and what you want out of it, the answer to your question will come pretty easily. If you are studying aikido as a means of self defense that doesn't rely on you punching or kicking, then it was absolutely aikido. If you are studying for a philosophy of causing no harm and for inner growth; then no it wasn't aikido, you should have been aware of the threat and avoided it....

For me, aikido or more accurately "aiki" is an approach and a set of principles. It gets a bit complex from there but in general, how can I end a conflict without direct head-to-head or power-against-power resolution.

Back to your example... in the dojo we take care of our uke because we want to use them again. We train to develop good ukemi so that nage can "take the technique to the limit" without hurting us. Even in free practice, I'll recognize the kote coming on because 100% of my mind is not on taking you out. You'll also be less likely to really set the technique with your hips and weight because we are "practicing".

Out in the parking lot, are you going to stop halfway through your kote to determine if your attacker can take the fall or if he going to try to throw his weight into punching you with the other hand? I'm more inclined to keep going with that kote, dropping weight and dropping the bad guy. If he can't get down fast enough or hits his head on the curb, that is a consequence of his decision to attack me.

Now of course other factors come into play. Where am I? Who else is around? How much danger am I really in. If I'm walking out of the dojo with four other students and some kid is goofing off and throws a punch "at them funny skirt wearing guys" then breaking his wrist is irresponsible and wrong. If I'm walking out of the dojo alone, last one out at night and four big guys decide they are going to pound on the "funny skirt wearing guy" then I'm not as likely to be concerned about the potential damage caused by that kote.

I hope this makes some sense. It's only my opinion and it really is up to you to make up your own mind.

Chris

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#128107 - 12/15/04 12:26 AM Re: www.martialarts.com
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
For what its worth dept.

Chris went to a seminar last weekend and saw Kajukembo in action. With their committed attacks and over-kill mentality, trying to get a joint lock of any nature will be difficult, especially the way its practiced in the dojo. Everything has to be adapted, any time you learn something, its more how you apply it, then actually doing it. My daughter is a professional Chef, and she studied her craft just like Martial arts. A recipe is a recipe, but its usually someone else's when you get it, you have to find how you want to use the recipe, thats what makes a great cook, and a good Martial artist.

Can joint locking be effective, of course, but not the play practice of the dojo. Take a look at basketball or baseball. Shooting free throws in practice, its not the game when you are by yourself. The trick is to shoot that free throw with 10,000 screaming fans and six 7 foot giants standing beside you. Same thing in baseball, taking infield is not playing baseball, its practice. You do it in the game, but the hits are from pitched balls at 100 mph, vs a coach hitting fungoes.When you practice in the dojo, its that, practice, that is not going to work in a self defense situation like that. It has to be adapted for use in self defense

I think Chris 's point about injury is very valid. Alot of injuries are caused by the uke not keeping up with a nage's movement. Some times intentional, sometimes not, nage is just a step ahead of uke, Isn't that the purpose of the breakfall, to try and keep up with the technique and not get hurt?(or reverse). So if a trained person can get hurt by not keeping up with uke, what about someone with no training? However is a sprained wrist a hurt or an injury? I tell my students to sit out if they are injured, if they are hurt, keep training. So it depends on definition too.

Bottom line is that one needs to view how others attack. Look at Shotokan and their long low stances, its going to be hard to move that attack in a tenkan motion without some form of atemi. Look at Kempos lightening multi-striking, one must adapt to this as well, if you are going to use Aikido. I myself, even with my Aiki background, consider myself to be more Jujutsu, so I approach the locking different. I have heard the same stories about not getting locks on strikers. Professor Wally Jay made a living at it, So did Okazaki Sensei, there are many great Jujutsuist, and Aikidoka who can make their art work, I have seen them do it. But you need to take it out of the Aikido venue, or Jujutsu venue to see how others attack, so you can adapt your AIki to it.

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#128108 - 12/15/04 09:31 AM Re: www.martialarts.com
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Sensei Lou,

This if probably one of the best quotes I've ever heard about martial arts... Thank you for sharing it!

"A recipe is a recipe, but its usually someone else's when you get it, you have to find how you want to use the recipe, thats what makes a great cook, and a good Martial artist."

Clear and concise with a ton of wisdom to be pulled from!

Chris

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