FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 31 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Bartfast, ZapEm, AndyLA, danacohenn, ksusanc
22906 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Dobbersky 10
AndyLA 5
futsaowingchun 4
cxt 3
ergees 2
August
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
New Topics
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
Yesterday at 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
Chi Sao demonstration
by futsaowingchun
08/14/14 10:57 PM
Decent Fight channel
by FrankyFruits
08/07/14 09:19 PM
2014 European Championships Cadets Athens: Videos
by ergees
08/07/14 10:00 AM
Life goes on....
by Dobbersky
08/07/14 05:59 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
Applied center line theory
by futsaowingchun
07/28/14 08:55 AM
centerline concepts
by futsaowingchun
07/14/14 10:49 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:14 AM
Recent Posts
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
Yesterday at 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by VDJ
08/15/14 05:46 PM
Chi Sao demonstration
by futsaowingchun
08/14/14 10:57 PM
The Karate punch
by Dobbersky
08/12/14 05:14 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Dobbersky
08/11/14 05:03 AM
Decent Fight channel
by FrankyFruits
08/07/14 09:19 PM
2014 European Championships Cadets Athens: Videos
by ergees
08/07/14 10:00 AM
Life goes on....
by Dobbersky
08/07/14 05:59 AM
A post for those who might become martial artists.
by AndyLA
08/06/14 07:25 AM
Forum Stats
22906 Members
36 Forums
35571 Topics
432473 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#128074 - 12/11/04 04:29 AM SenseiLou
Robaikido Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
Using SenseiLou as an example, I hope you dont mind [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

As far as I can see, you are pretty senior in aikido, so thats why I have chosen you on this board. People say aikido doesnt work, my view is that every single technique works, but. If senseilou got his ass kicked by a eg boxer, as his defense techiniques are all practical, you could say that it was down to him, or anyone, making a mistake.

If a boxer, kung fu etc person attacked him 100 times, would he get his ass kicked every time, I very must doubt it, I'm guessing the opposite, so this must mean that the techniques all work, it just depends at the time of attack if you perform them correctly?

I apologise to you sensei if you mind being used as an example

Top
#128075 - 12/11/04 12:45 PM Re: SenseiLou
mugen Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/04
Posts: 52
Loc: Davis, CA, USA
you sound pretty dumb

Top
#128076 - 12/11/04 01:18 PM Re: SenseiLou
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Robaikido:
Using SenseiLou as an example, I hope you dont mind [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

As far as I can see, you are pretty senior in aikido, so thats why I have chosen you on this board. People say aikido doesnt work, my view is that every single technique works, but. If senseilou got his ass kicked by a eg boxer, as his defense techiniques are all practical, you could say that it was down to him, or anyone, making a mistake.

If a boxer, kung fu etc person attacked him 100 times, would he get his ass kicked every time, I very must doubt it, I'm guessing the opposite, so this must mean that the techniques all work, it just depends at the time of attack if you perform them correctly?

I apologise to you sensei if you mind being used as an example
[/QUOTE]

There is a saying, a good tradesman never blames his tools.

If he gets his arse kicked, it is due to his own inadequacies. Or his opponent was better on the day. (see above point)

Every technique in almost every style, works, in any given situation.

As someone said somewhere else on this board. Aikido does not teach you to take hits, most Aikidoka when they get hit react in a disagreeable way. Most aikidoka when they hit someone get very appologetic.
Most Aikidoka are not trained to punch through the target, there seems to be some kind of stigma that says all Tsuki, uchi and kiri ho must be atemi only. (atemi - false strike). Tsuki is a punch to either the midsection or throat, it is also a thrust. Uchi ho is a strike to the top of the face or forehead-shomen uchi, or yokomen uchi- temple strike, Ago uchi -jaw strike, gyaku yokomen uchi - reverse temple strike. These four strikes are all meant to connect with the opponent, they are not atemi ho.
Gyaku tsuki -reverse punch are generally used only for atemi.

Also one can not say ok if this attack happens next I'll do this.
The best mind is no mind, Zanshin.

Top
#128077 - 12/11/04 02:23 PM Re: SenseiLou
Robaikido Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mugen:
you sound pretty dumb[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your input my friend, that helped alot

Top
#128078 - 12/11/04 06:17 PM Re: SenseiLou
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
No offense taken......but why pick on the old guy?

"Most Aikidoka are not trained to punch through the target, there seems to be some kind of stigma that says all Tsuki, uchi and kiri ho must be atemi only. (atemi - false strike). Tsuki is a punch to either the midsection or throat, it is also a thrust. Uchi ho is a strike to the top of the face or forehead-shomen uchi, or yokomen uchi- temple strike, Ago uchi -jaw strike, gyaku yokomen uchi - reverse temple strike. These four strikes are all meant to connect with the opponent, they are not atemi ho.
Gyaku tsuki -reverse punch are generally used only for atemi."

This is the point I have been trying to get across for ever. Most Aikidoka believe the attack originates with the back foot and back hand. They do not train in striking(its not part of the curriculum)so they don't know all the combinations and possible attacks. I had a Nidan in Aikido tell me you can't kick and hit off the front foot. Its a great example of what I am talking about. You really need a working understanding of how strikes are going to come at you, to be able to defend against them.

There was one person here that felt the strikes practiced by Aikido were similar to any attack that one could receive. Attacks in Aikido are based on sword attack, not Karate strikes. They are not the same. Yokomenuchi is Not a hook, or cross. So when these Aikido practice their art, its based on different means of attacking. Also, Karate teaches quadrants, and zones as to where to strike, Aikido doesn't address this either. Its not a knock on Aikido, its purpose and use is NOT BASED on fighting a Karateka, it must be adapted to use in that situation. As for the technique not working, look at ikkyo, its not for the purpose of defending ones self. The technique is a "mother" technique and taught to help a student learn the next level techniques, like Nikkyo or Sankyo etc. The funtion of Ikkyo is not self defense and needs to be adapted if you were to use it, and tehn I am not sure how effective it would be, maybe as a restraint. But its value is in how it relates to other techniques through its principles.

Its not a question of how effective the techniques are, O'Sensei said the best technique is no technique. So techniques become vehicles to learn aspects of the art, principles, concepts and basics and how to use them. The technique is only as good as the person using it and his UNDERSTANDING of what he is doing.

By the way, I am not a senior in Aikido, I am a black belt, but thats it. My experience with Aikido, is based on the fact that I am a senior in other arts and get to see both sides. When talking about Aikido, I would NEVER, EVER apply technique without some sort of pre-emptive attack. "Shockem before you lockem" is a guiding principle in our art. But to say mine is more effective because we strike is not the issue. The bottom line is this, the better skilled technician, the better knowledge will win out.

Top
#128079 - 12/11/04 06:35 PM Re: SenseiLou
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Attacks in Aikido are based on sword attack, not Karate strikes. They are not the same. Yokomenuchi is Not a hook, or cross.

I am not sure...looking at Daito ryu for an example, alot of atemi techniques were right handed. This was because of their use of the knife. Although I see the sword based techniques, I think they are also ment for other bladed weapon attacks. Based on my study of Kondo's work.
Kurumadaoshi technique of Kondo's Daito Ryu is an exsample I would look at. Looks alot like Yokomenuchi Kokyunage.
I can see it working on a punch to the head. Your taisabaki would depend upon the angle of attack. Irimi left or right.
Just a thought.
Ed

Top
#128080 - 12/11/04 07:22 PM Re: SenseiLou
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]There was one person here that felt the strikes practiced by Aikido were similar to any attack that one could receive. Attacks in Aikido are based on sword attack, not Karate strikes. They are not the same. Yokomenuchi is Not a hook, or cross.[/QUOTE]

I made a point similar to this, based upon another post in an other forum by Chen.
He mentioned that Almost all martial arts and 'street fighters' use the same set of punches. etc.
This in essence is correct.

A hook is exactly the same as Yokomen, both come from the side in order to connect with the temple to lower ear area.
Yokomen uchi is taken from yokomen kiri.
Sure yokomen uchi is an open palm strike with tegetana (knife hand). Basically it is a cut with the hand, karate uses a similar kind of cut does it not?
Just because it sounds different does not mean it is different.

There is a gung fu strike called the Glass owl, basically it is gyaku tsuki. It is delivered in the same way yet with the intention to strike. The above tsuki is also intended to contact, its contact point is the bridge of the nose. In order to break the nose, the same as the Glass owl.

Fundamentally all punches and strikes are the same. However there exists this elitist element in MA that likes to believe their style is superior to all others and somehow different.

A guy with a baseball bat is going to do a crude yokomen and shomen but that isn't what he will call it.
[QUOTE]I am not sure...looking at Daito ryu for an example, alot of atemi techniques were right handed. This was because of their use of the knife. [/QUOTE]
While that maybe so, it is imperative to train with both sides, left and right.
When I studied Tanto, it wasn't just a right handed affair, it was both sides.
I had to be profficient in both right and left handed technique and attack.
The tanto is a very versitile weapon in the correct hands.

Top
#128081 - 12/12/04 09:06 AM Re: SenseiLou
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
When you are working in traditional, sword based Japanese arts, the left and right side are not treated equally. The sword(s) were worn on the left hip which dictated many body movements. I doubt you'll see any Iado schools that practice both left and right side.

I'm not very familiar with Daito but if they are basing atemi off of the position of their tanto, it would be predominantly right handed.

I'll throw my two cents in to agree with Sensei Lou and say that yokomen is not the same as a cross or a hook punch. At least not the yokomen that I've seen in most of the seminars and dojos I've visited! Most of the yokomen I've seen from aikidoka come from above and behind the ear and are a step and strike. I don't recall ever seeing any aikidoka in any sort of practice set up a yokomen strike with any kind of body feint, kick or other jab.

Lastly, as Igneous mentioned, aikidoka seem more likely to apologize when they actually hit someone in class. In most of the other martial arts I've experience, that called training or sparring!

Chris

Top
#128082 - 12/12/04 10:10 AM Re: SenseiLou
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by csinca:
When you are working in traditional, sword based Japanese arts, the left and right side are not treated equally. The sword(s) were worn on the left hip which dictated many body movements. I doubt you'll see any Iado schools that practice both left and right side.

I'm not very familiar with Daito but if they are basing atemi off of the position of their tanto, it would be predominantly right handed.

I'll throw my two cents in to agree with Sensei Lou and say that yokomen is not the same as a cross or a hook punch. At least not the yokomen that I've seen in most of the seminars and dojos I've visited! Most of the yokomen I've seen from aikidoka come from above and behind the ear and are a step and strike. I don't recall ever seeing any aikidoka in any sort of practice set up a yokomen strike with any kind of body feint, kick or other jab.

Lastly, as Igneous mentioned, aikidoka seem more likely to apologize when they actually hit someone in class. In most of the other martial arts I've experience, that called training or sparring!

Chris
[/QUOTE]

What I am getting at with the whole yokomen=hook thing is as follows.
Yokomen is made up of two words Yoko and men.
Yoko means side or temple, where as men means face.
So Yokomen is side of the face. What is the point of contact of a hook?
Is it not the side of the face also?

Looking at Shomen it to is made up of 2 words, sho and men. Again men=face and Sho=means top or above.
So Shomen would be the top of or above the face as in the forehead.
Similar to an overhead strike.

Looking at punches we have Tsuki=thrust.
Two types Do=stomach or abdomen, and NoDo=neck.
Show me a guy on the street that doesn't punch to the stomach and throat?

The point is, when we get bound up in using correct words, and watching strikes etc. We loose sight of what the basic or crude versions of these fundemental atemi, uchi and kiri ho are.

As for being appologetic, I used to get very tired of saying to students, do not appologise.
If your sorry you hit me, then why did you? etc.
Which goes back to an earlier comment, Aikidoka are not taught to punch through. Or to carry through an atemi. They tend to get caught up in this stigma of self defence and soft art rubbish.

Top
#128083 - 12/12/04 11:51 AM Re: SenseiLou
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
If you look at the bujutsu origins, yokomen was a strike to the carthoid artery of the neck.
So really what is the difference between that and a hook punch. What I find really is the difference, is the commitment of the attack. By that I mean , boxing with it's jabs and ranging is different than the commited attacks in Aikido. I think that is what Aikidoka have problems dealing with.
Ed

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Self Defense
Offering stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and other self defense products not available in stores.

Pepper Spray
Online distributor of self defense supplies like videos, stun guns, Tasers and more.

Spy Cameras
Surveillance, Hidden Cameras, Nanny Cams, Digital Recorders, Spy Equipment, Pocket DVR's and more

Stun Gun
Wholesale Directlhy to the Public! Stun gun and Taser Guns and personal protection products. Keep your loved ones at home safe!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga