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#127975 - 10/24/04 11:02 AM Aikido is NOT a soft Martial Science
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have studied Aikido for 4 years now. I have only had to use ONE Aikido technique in a real life confrontation (I posted before that I have been in ONE street fight, this particular one was when I was in High School awhile back). At the end of a typical school day this one particular young man would always get jealous when I talked with what he called his "girlfriend".... lol. Anyways, After school I stepped into the bathroom and guess what.... there he was. Well I didn't know I was followed into the bathroom by 2 of his buddies. I tried to turn and leave but they were barring my path. They pushed and shoved on me for a minute or so. So I said "Okay man, look, I am not here to fight". I tried to leave once again, and was shoved back in there. Even with my martial experience I didn't want to fight because I knew that the other 2 would jump in. Anyways I stepped back in and pushed him too thinking that if I did something to him in return, he would leave me be. But no, this boy wanted to fight. Fighting was the ONLY way and I would NOT have fought had it not been. So.... moving along with the story, IHe pushed me again and I pushed him. He turned like he was going to walk away and then.... WHOA! I was punched in the stomach. After I recovered, I approached him cautiously. He threw a quick but sloppy jab and I managed to get ahold of his wrist. I used a technique called Tenchi Nage on him and it did work succesfully. Afterwards a staff member came in a broke all the commotion up. See, I know some of you guys are thinking that some of the techniques used in Aikido dont work. I agree, BUT there are those that are very effective. What I am trying to say is, if the right technique is applied, especially to someone's wrist or elbow, and it is applied CORRECTLY, they will flip. No one is gonna just stand there with that much pressure to there wrist. So yes Aikido is and is not soft.

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#127976 - 10/24/04 09:29 PM Re: Aikido is NOT a soft Martial Science
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I am not trying to be rude, but......using a technique 1 time does not mean it works all the time. You have to look at who's doing it to whom, and what the other person knows. If it was a high school situation, neither you nor the attacker had much experience. Also, when you talk about doing a throw, an untrained person may not "Flip" for the mere reason they don't know how. Many a throwing technique results in a face plant in the dojo because the student doesn't roll properly, and that is with instruction. Very few people will roll for you in a real fight. The "flip" as you say is an escape mechanism, and many people who don't train don't know it. You may have gotten lucky, or the technique may have worked, either way , 1 fight, 1 technique does not make Aikido HARD. It takes more than 1 encounter to test a technique.

Satome Sensei at a seminar said "his techniques work 90% of the time" Here is a Shihan who trained with O'Sensei and says its only 90% effective. You doing a technique 1 time, on a teenager does not make something hard or 100% effective, it was for you at that time. Change the attacker and the results just may change.

Many people may have a hard time with what I am saying. I am not saying Aikido is not effective, and I am not saying its a soft art. Compared to Karate it is, but it has a different mind set. Its more about how one practices the art, not correctly, but the emphais you put on it. What is correct to one, may not be correct to another. Some schools are more small circle, more direct in their application. This is no more incorrect than the big circle less direct method. So whats correct?

Satome Sensei at his seminar not only said his Aikido was 90% effective, but that the odds changed when dealing with people of more experience. What would have happended if you were fighting a street fighter on drugs, that might change the situation.

Finally I would never throw someone unless its into a wall, car, or a tree. Throwing someone if they can do your "flip" and know how to land, will just come back at you. Just for a note I train my more athletic and younger students to try to land on their feet after certain throws. With certain abilities, they can counter the throw. I prefer takedowns where they can't get back up. There is no pain, no anything to keep the person from coming back up, unless your Tenchi Nage goes over the hip, then you have a tougher fall for them to recover from.

Bottom line is that one fight, with 1 technique does not define an art one way or the other. To say Aikido is hard based on this one encounter is not a comparison at all. If one of O'Sensei's students is only 90% effective, I am sure yours is less. What makes an art hard or soft is its practioners, and that goes with experience and how they approach their art. Thank goodness you won, and thats great, but Aikido's question of hard and soft, effective or non-effective doesn't lie in this one ecounter.

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#127977 - 10/25/04 12:35 AM Re: Aikido is NOT a soft Martial Science
Anonymous
Unregistered


I see your points, and thanks for your reply. What I was trying to point out really is that everyone says "Aikido is soft, Aikido is not effective, blah blah". I was trying to emphasize that some ofthe techniques can be quiet effective if applied correctly. But yes, you may some rather good points in your post. But like you were saying "People won't just roll for you because they dont know how". I see what you are saying, I really do. But I dont see how someone would NOT roll with so much pressure applied to thier wrist or elbow, etc. I would think that they would go the opposite of where the pressure is. I dunno, I have only been studying for a few years in Aikido and Ninjutsu. I still have alot of knowledge to gain. But thanks again for your reply.

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#127978 - 10/25/04 04:05 AM Re: Aikido is NOT a soft Martial Science
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shaolin Wolf:
I see your points, and thanks for your reply. What I was trying to point out really is that everyone says "Aikido is soft, Aikido is not effective, blah blah".[/QUOTE]

The beauty of aikido is that as it becomes softer it also becomes more effective. That for me is the whole point of studying aikido and not kickboxing.

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#127979 - 10/25/04 10:24 PM Re: Aikido is NOT a soft Martial Science
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree. Another reason why I study Aikido.

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#127980 - 10/26/04 06:14 PM Re: Aikido is NOT a soft Martial Science
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Regarding whether people will "flip" or not, I've found that working with people brand new to martial arts, they tend to stand in place and yell "ouch" when you lock them up. It is very rare that someone with no martial arts experience does anything resembling the type of ukemi we train.

On the other end of the spectrum, Sensei Lou is right on... the guy that is trained is going to flip right over to his feet and be back on you... that is if you managed to get the lock to begin with!

Chris

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#127981 - 10/27/04 12:15 AM Re: Aikido is NOT a soft Martial Science
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree with all of your points. But look, someone would eventually HAVE to flip when a certain amount of pressure is applie. I am talking about in a real life situation here: Okay some guy mugs you, he tries to strike you, you grab his wrist and perform a technique to his wrist. Well, when enough pressure is applied to his wrist in one direction, I think the guy would really HAVE NO CHOICE but to flip. I mean I am sure after a few seconds he would get the picture to flip. Think about it, wouldn't YOU flip if that much pressure was applied to your wrist. So I think if they want to leave without a broken wrist, they would flip.

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#127982 - 10/27/04 02:46 AM Re: Aikido is NOT a soft Martial Science
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shaolin Wolf:
I agree with all of your points. But look, someone would eventually HAVE to flip when a certain amount of pressure is applie. I am talking about in a real life situation here: Okay some guy mugs you, he tries to strike you, you grab his wrist and perform a technique to his wrist. Well, when enough pressure is applied to his wrist in one direction, I think the guy would really HAVE NO CHOICE but to flip. I mean I am sure after a few seconds he would get the picture to flip. Think about it, wouldn't YOU flip if that much pressure was applied to your wrist. So I think if they want to leave without a broken wrist, they would flip.[/QUOTE]

The attacker will only 'flip' if his momentum sends him. He won't flip if he's stood still and you apply a wrist technique. He's more likely to want to drop to his knees, in which case you would be in the position to put him in Osae and perhaps apply nikkio if he tries to resist.


[This message has been edited by Chanters (edited 10-27-2004).]

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#127983 - 10/27/04 02:55 AM Re: Aikido is NOT a soft Martial Science
Anonymous
Unregistered


I see what your saying however your chances of breaking someones wrist are far greater than getting them to flip on thier own. In a fight the last thing the guy is thinking is if I flip on my own he wont break my wrist. It would be a wiser choice to lock the wrist adn sweep the leg while controlling his fall. this would buy you time to practice your sprinting.

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#127984 - 10/27/04 10:22 PM Re: Aikido is NOT a soft Martial Science
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree highly. I understand.

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