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#127894 - 09/22/04 10:11 PM Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


does anyone have any experience using aikido techniques on attackers ( more aptly sparring partners) that arn't 100% trying to kill you, like a boxer who punches on balance, or judoka that doesnt just rush in.? ive recently started cross training (not a fad follower) in jujitsu and judo in an honest quest to be more enlightened. my sensei says just smack em, lol.

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#127895 - 09/23/04 02:36 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Once again, seems I always am saying this, it depends on the person. I have seen Aikido used against Karate type sparring, in fact I used Aikido in sparring against some Karate students. there is nothing like a good smack in the mouth to get someone's attention. Your Sensei is correct. What I found is this. Just Aiki with no atemi waza,rarely works. You must set up your techniques. If you were an experienced Aikidoka against a beginner in Karate you could probably get away without Atemi waza. My sparring early on using just Aikido I was not very suceesful. I was a Black Belt and studied for 10 years, so I was no beginner. First let me say that I don't think Aikido was created to defend against a Karate-ka, the philosopy and movements do not lend themselves to being properly applied in a sparring arena. After studying Karate for years, I found learning that art and combining my striking with my Aiki arts worked real well. However my Aiiki had to be modified to work in a sparring session. The nature of sparring is different than Jiyu waza or Randori in Aikido. In Aiki there is pretty much only defense movements even though you are moving in to the attacker. In Karate, especially sparring your goal is multiple striking and hitting your targets with combinations and kicking techniques. Most Aiki styles do not practice against combinations, so its hard to defend against something you haven't practiced against. I don't think the purpose of Aikido is to use in a sparring situation. Another issue is you can't apply a lock at full speed or power as you will injure you opponent. A strike is what it says, and can come at near full speed and power (though rarely done) in Kumite. So you have two distinct differences in application and mind set. Its great to learn HOW to adapt your Aiki so you can "play nicely with others" but its no indication of how it works for real. Its also very difficult to set up Aiki techniques when facing a boxer with out tagging his some. I believe the best thing is to be able to strike and kick (from long range)lock(from mid range) and grapple(in close)so you have all your ranges covered.

Another interesting point is Aiki philosophy and Karate. Having trained in both, I have had the Aiki peace and harmony lecture more than I care to remember. There is very little 'harmony' in sparring lessons or competition. So you need to understand what you are dealing with when you are in both arenas

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#127896 - 09/23/04 08:44 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


thanks sensei lou, i might have to get some karate training in then too...im running out of days in the week tho! what you said about applying techniques correctly with full speed and power....were a little stuck in aikido arn't we?, i mean is it preferable if our opponent has done some aikido, so they can receive the technique!? seriously tho its hard to train aikido with other people, getting it to work on uncooperative opponents can be difficult. has anyone else had an opening for a technique on ther freinds, only to start the technique and suddenly stop, as to not do them an injury? thats all ok, but its hard to argue that you had em......it comes across even worse if you say "well if you did aikido you'd be able to fall properly blah blah blah...."

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#127897 - 09/24/04 02:50 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
This situation goes round and round. You will always have people who deny you can get a lock on them and Aikidoka who swear they can. The argument is such that there is no answer. You can say you have the technique but let it go for fear of injury but what if your opponent hit you with full power and speed, you may never get the technique. Also strikes in combination , can be difficult to get with "dojo Aikido". On the flip side, most Karateka will deny the need for the locks and swear you'd never get them. If you do you can cause injury and if you don't the technique may not work. Personally I think both are good to have and one can compliment the other. Sometimes you need something beside hitting someone in the face, say a relative or friend. Locks really help here. Also it may help to have an offense if someone is in your house and you need to start the encounter. Aikido is mostly defensive, Karate can be both offensive and defensive. Like the boxer, the one who attacks all the time and the counter puncher. I know of an Aikido Sensei who found a burgular in his house. He faced the robber but did not attack. The robber stunned that he was not attacked, started a fire between the two, and the Aikido Sensei almost died in the fire. Instead of waiting for the robber to attack, he should have seized the moment and attacked the robber. I askled him why he didn't and he said, I wasn't sure what kind of attack to do, I always am defensive, I always counter act or neutralize an attack, I wasn't sure how to handle the situation. A liitle Karate training would have been a big help.

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#127898 - 09/24/04 05:48 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
This situation goes round and round. You will always have people who deny you can get a lock on them and Aikidoka who swear they can. The argument is such that there is no answer. You can say you have the technique but let it go for fear of injury but what if your opponent hit you with full power and speed, you may never get the technique. Also strikes in combination , can be difficult to get with "dojo Aikido". On the flip side, most Karateka will deny the need for the locks and swear you'd never get them. If you do you can cause injury and if you don't the technique may not work. Personally I think both are good to have and one can compliment the other. Sometimes you need something beside hitting someone in the face, say a relative or friend. Locks really help here. Also it may help to have an offense if someone is in your house and you need to start the encounter. Aikido is mostly defensive, Karate can be both offensive and defensive. Like the boxer, the one who attacks all the time and the counter puncher. I know of an Aikido Sensei who found a burgular in his house. He faced the robber but did not attack. The robber stunned that he was not attacked, started a fire between the two, and the Aikido Sensei almost died in the fire. Instead of waiting for the robber to attack, he should have seized the moment and attacked the robber. I askled him why he didn't and he said, I wasn't sure what kind of attack to do, I always am defensive, I always counter act or neutralize an attack, I wasn't sure how to handle the situation. A liitle Karate training would have been a big help.[/QUOTE]

Why become violent with someone who is not violent towards you? Even if the Sensei you speak of was attacked by the burglar and he neutralised the attack, there is no certainty that the burglar would not want to retailiate in the future.

Anyone could be a victim at anytime, does that mean if threatened in any way even just verbally should we jump them because at a later date they might try and hurt me again? I think because aikido teaches much more than 'ass kicking' and has a deeper spiritual and philisophical belief (although you don't HAVE to follow that side) we sometimes see things in a different perspective than some other people who practice different MA.

Personally I practice aikido so I can defend myself and help defend others from an attack. I won't and can't use it to attack others as I would question who is the one in the wrong.

Saying Karate training would have been a big help, is useless and not true. Can you say, hand on heart, that you believe if the Sensei had karate training, the burglar would not have started the fire? I don't believe this is the case. Whether I have misinterpreted your comment, I am unsure but that is the way I read it.

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#127899 - 09/24/04 01:51 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
This is exactly the mind set I am talking about. The man is in your house for Christ sakes! He obviously didn't come for dinner. Its this mamby pamby "oh he didn't threaten me" crap that I am talking about. You have made my point. If you won't get aggressive and kick someones ass who has violated the sanctity of your home, and endanger your loved ones, you will never understand, and thats my point, you made it very well for me. One day you will wake up, sadly, its going to take someone hurting you or your loved ones before the message will sink in. Keep on waiting for them to do something, next time it could be an automatic weapon pulled, by the time you wait for his attack and decide he is a threat you will be dead. Great thinking partner!

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#127900 - 09/25/04 07:14 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
swright Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 14
[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
Its also very difficult to set up Aiki techniques when facing a boxer with out tagging his some. [/QUOTE]

Senseilou

Have you taken a look at Yoseikan Budo? Minoru Mochizuki's style does deal with Boxers having learnt in the 50's that Aikido alone was not enough.

S

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#127901 - 09/27/04 02:50 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
next time it could be an automatic weapon pulled, by the time you wait for his attack and decide he is a threat you will be dead. Great thinking partner![/QUOTE]

I think it maybe you who needs to wake up if you think you should attack someone who has an automatic weapon.

I can't comment on where you live but where I am, statistically, the majority of burglars are pure opportunists who, if discovered make a run for it. Therefore their actions were not pre-meditated so the chances of them carrying a weapon is very minimal. Also, unfortunately, the law sometimes sides with the intruder if you cause injury to them but no harm came to you. It's stupid as the intruder chose to trespass but that's the way the current system runs.

Anyway, that's the way I think whereas you're mindset seems to be kick ass at any time where you're being threatened. Personally I believe sometimes that can make things worse. It all depends on the situation you're facing.

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#127902 - 09/27/04 12:09 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chanters:
I think it maybe you who needs to wake up if you think you should attack someone who has an automatic weapon.

I dont think id ever go for someone with an automatic weapon, but if faced with a burglar or whatever, i'd have to go with the "grab a heavy object and hit him with it" school of thought (or bokken if you have one handy :-)
Why would you hesitate to let the robber draw a weapon? if hes waving a gun around in the first place fair anough, theres not much you can do, but if you catch the guy in surprise, youd never let him put his hands in his pockets/jacket...him having a weapon in the first place shows his intention to harm!!! id get the first punch in and make it count, lol and the second third and fourth punches in while im there, then run for it!
i dont think its sane to give the thief a chance to decide wether he wants to attack or not, sureley the only way you will find out is if he makes a run for it, or he actually hits you, and by then of cause its all too late... and as for the law, that will be the last thing in your mind when a thug(/thief/rapist?) is in your house threatening your family! and his injuries would be my last concern....hmmm judged by twelve or carried by six?

a freind of mine told me about how he went out to a pub, with a karate guy. they had not been there long befor some moron insisted he get out of his seat. the karateka said he wanted no trouble etc etc but the thug persisted...so the karate guy went into giving him the three warnings nonsense.....im a black belt blah blah *WHACK*, the karateka didnt get to the third warning before the thug wrapped a bar stool around his face...., my point being the rediculous mentality of the karateka giving warnings etc, (not the fact that he is a karateka!) its nice to think you can disable an enemy without hurting him, allow him to go, but there not in your face for a hug..

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#127903 - 09/28/04 02:52 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
This goes back to my original point....why would you wait for an intruder in your house to do something. 'Chanters' doesn't see that as a threat only a burgular who will run. I will not stand by and watch an intruder in MY house and wait for him to decide what he is going to do. My point was if you wait THEN you have the gun to deal with. If you are in my house uninvited, you are going to get your ass beat, at the risk of Chanters thinking I am Atilla the Hun. And yes, you threaten me or my family, you are going to get an ass whippin. My family relys on me for many things, and without me, they would have hardships. I owe it to them to takeaway any threat to me or them. Chanters you want to wait around and see what happens from a threat go ahead, but your whollier than thou Aiki attitude may get you killed or seriously hurt. I always try to avoid a confrontation, and I give my attacker every chance to leave, and in some cases I may choose to leave if I don't feel its a serious threat. But if threatened, the attacker is going down BEFORE he decides what else he wnats to do.

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#127904 - 09/28/04 03:01 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by atemiwaza:
Why would you hesitate to let the robber draw a weapon? if hes waving a gun around in the first place fair anough, theres not much you can do, but if you catch the guy in surprise, youd never let him put his hands in his pockets/jacket[/QUOTE]

That to me would be the beginnings of an attack and I would then act. As you probably know there are many techniques in aikido on how to deal with someone who's drawing a weapon.

I believe hurting or causing pain to an attacker is not really a problem as this is not a permanent thing. I'm unsure as to whether I would try and intentionally cause injury. I have been taught in serious circumstances of how to break limbs by one sensei. I suppose in a serious attack, I'd rather the attacker suffer a broken limb than either of us losing our lives.

Every situation is different and I suppose you'd have to assess it accordingly in order to defend yourself successfully.

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#127905 - 09/28/04 06:09 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
I will not stand by and watch an intruder in MY house and wait for him to decide what he is going to do. My point was if you wait THEN you have the gun to deal with. If you are in my house uninvited, you are going to get your ass beat.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
I always try to avoid a confrontation, and I give my attacker every chance to leave, and in some cases I may choose to leave if I don't feel its a serious threat. [/QUOTE]

I feel the two comments you made above within the same post contradict one another.

I apologise if you felt like I came across as 'holier than thou'. I didn't mean to and don't see myself above or below anyone so I'm sorry if I caused any offence.


[This message has been edited by Chanters (edited 09-28-2004).]

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#127906 - 09/28/04 03:03 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


well you didnt offend me at all chanters! thanks for your erplies in the topic! we're all here for our love of martial arts training and hopefully to learn something new!

i think it is a nice philosophy to not want to hurt your attacker, but i dont think its realistically possible to exercise that level of control over a ravenous 18 stone nutcase, intent on hurting you, no matter what your level of martial arts training. (why is it that my attackers are never ever smaller/wimpier than i am??? lol)
at the end of the day it is your bottle, and how far your willing to go.....a guy going crazy in the bar because ive spilt his pint? id buy him another! he continues to be aggresive, time to get the girlfreind and go somewhere else!swallow your pride and live another day!

....but in your house! you just cant risk him deciding wether or not to attack, id shout and swear as i approached the thief, telling him i'd bite his nose off etc (hopefully he'll go straight to "flight" mode) but thats about as diplomatic as i woudl get. its important to allow the attacker space to flee, for example, you swearing at the guy to get out, but blocking the doorway. if he has a free choice, either you or the exit, he will be more inclined to take the easy way out. on the other hand if you feel your gonna be in for a fight you have to be explosive and ferocious and do anything it takes to win...

chanters: " I have been taught in serious circumstances of how to break limbs by one sensei. I suppose in a serious attack, I'd rather the attacker suffer a broken limb than either of us losing our lives"

my sensei tought me that ALL aikido techniques can break limbs, and that they all start with a strike (that should finish the fight anyway) he also said if you get nocked down, and theres a brick next to you, take it with you when you get back up. dont thinkfor one second that your attacker will be thinking of your welfare when he stamps on your head. ive worked in nightclubs for some time, try wristlocks on someone whos pissed as a fart, and high on cocaine/ecstasy and they wont feel it, ive seen guys like that been stamped onin the groin, and the face and got up of the floor, been nocked down and got up again! and again, and again... its probably daft to presume that anyone who enters your home is a reasonable individual, that can be spoken to liek a reasonable individual.

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#127907 - 09/29/04 06:05 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
This has gotten a bit off the original question but I think it has taken a very interesting turn.

In the scenario Sensei Lou established with a burglar in the house, the aikido sensei didn't have any option other than to wait for an attack. A totally passive response and one that I would never want to be limited to.

I don't interprete any of the aikido philosophies I've ever heard as meaning you have to be or should train to be passive. In fact most of the really good Aiki folks (and non-siki for that matter)I've had the opportunity to work with have owned me before there was an attack. I've been in front of people in the dojo and I knew that when I attacked it wasn't going to be pretty for me.

The true essence for me is taking control of the situation and you do that with controlling distance and angles. You can control the initiative verbally and with posture... There are a lot of things that you can do up to and including nailing the guy.

For those that really like to think in terms of "harmony" the guy broke all harmony once he broke into your house. At that point it is up to you to start restoring some harmony!

Chris

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#127908 - 09/29/04 06:10 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Atemi-

As for your original question, in my experience working with karate and BJJ guys, I think you need two things that aren't taught in most of the aikido dojo's I've visited.

1. You need some good atemi skills. Before everone jumps on me to say you train a lot of atemi, I'm just refering to most of the places I've visited in the western part of the USA. Without some good atemi skills you allow the person you are sparring with to dictate distance, timing, tempo and they get to pick their opening.
2. You need some understanding of what their weapons are, what the ranges are and how they might use them. If you've never seen a BJJ guy come in fast for a double leg after a couple of jabs, it is pretty interesting!

Of course I'm sure that there are many folks out there with more skill than I that can handle this sort of thing twice before breakfast!

Chris

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#127909 - 09/30/04 02:03 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Chris's point about working atemi waza is correct. Many times I talk to Aikidoka who say they train with atemi waza. Yet when you ask them if they just practice atemi waza the answer is no.In order to use striking skills they must be honed, and practiced. I know the art of Aiki doesn't have a set striking curriculum, but in order to have a good striking base it has to be repeated and repeated. On one of these posts someone talks about once you know how to punch you know, you don't need to practice striking. this is wrong.......no matter how you use striking it must be practiced, and while Aikido may employ striking its not practiced and as Chris points out, you need to understand the nature of the striker. Aikido techniques would have to be modified to handle a shotkan stylist from a boxing practioner. In order to really undertand striking it must be practiced.

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#127910 - 11/08/04 11:37 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


I keep seeing this "boxer" problem come up and I haev to say that I will not play their game. I am not trying to get points, so I don't have to stand at the boxer's favorite distance and try to get a number of jabs in under a certain amount of time! A boxer that can defend a kick is a serious fighter because they can take a punch and many aikido people have no idea if they can take a punch.

I have to say that teaching aikido has toughened me up more than fighting my older brother for all those years when we were growing up. I get beginners swinging bokken at my head when they are supposed to be swinging at my legs - and yes the first time I said "yoko ashi" and got clobbered in the side of the head I laughed (when the room stopped spinning) and said "okay, ashi means foot, and let's slow down a bit". But hey I was teaching kata and I didn't do a very good job! (I got much better at avoiding that and defending my whole body eventhough they are "supposed" to be swinging at just one part!)

Anyway, a boxer is a serious threat, but you can make your own aikido kata for dealing with good combinations like jab, jab, cross, upper cut, jab, etc... Try to enter and turn and see if you can get them to naturally follow you into a less favorable distance for them, or catch that upper cut on it's way back and turn it into kotegaishi, etc... I think the important thing to do is to be level appropriate. I would say let the people yondan and higher work on it after class.

With Judo attacks that don't rush in, first I think you need to make it dificult/impossible for them to touch you on their terms. When they do touch you, you need to establish the right connection and make space appropriately. This kind of thing can be studied in kihon waza. Can you do tenchi nage, such that if an attacker with good kokyu ho is grabbing you that they cannot let go without being in danger of you instantly hitting them? If not, look deeper because it is in there.

Rob

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#127911 - 11/08/04 05:48 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Rob,

Very good point, since our goal is not to "box" the other guy we have the opportunity to take him out of his game. This past weekend I watched two Tang Soo Do 3rd dans sparring and thought about what I would do in front of one of them.

I took comfort in the fact that my goal would not be to score a point or land a strike but rather to get behind them and take their balance. Hopefully without getting clocked to many times or too badly in the process!

Chris

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#127912 - 11/16/04 11:57 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


It doesn't work very well when you try to get behind someone who is attacking you. It is much easier and more effective to work on trying to get them to end up in front of you while they are attacking.

This distinction is important. It goes back to really figuring out how to make the appropriate space while maintaining that fragile connection - which answers all the questions about how to deal with a lack of momentum.

Rob

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#127913 - 11/16/04 01:23 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
It doesn't work very well when you try to get behind someone who is attacking you.

Am I missing something? I am not sure about this answer. One primary goal is to get to the attackers blind side or his back. Getting an oponents back is an ideal situation. Unless you are talking about something else, getting the persons back is what I want, and its not hard to do. The first thing I teach my students is not to give someone their back. So I am not sure I understand this remark. Most Aiki arts are based in front of them, but does not mean its ideal. We talk about moving to the dark side where the attackers vision is less and can not see the what the person is going to do. we have nurmerous techniques that get you to the back of someone. If you are saying you can't get you Aiki techniques to work from the rear, maybe, but you should add something to your arsenal that gets you back their. Even a boxer, if you trap and manipulate them you can get to their rear. I think this is once again a question of form and function. Traditional Aiki doesn't go there but you can bet if I get your back, your DONE!

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#127914 - 11/16/04 03:36 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
First let me say that I have been always been facinated with Aikido. The question asked at the begining is a very good one. One that has been asked alot.

Although I do not study Aikido on a regular basis I did study with Juba Nor Sensei in Manhattan. Now I find his Aikido very effective as he was under Chiba Sensei who in my opinion is pretty hardcore not to mess around with guy. That is my backround.

Aikido is taught with commited attacks by the uke. Most people belive this is based on Kenjustu, but in my opinion most real attacks with or without weapons are commited. The boxing, UFC stuff as in sports and high school square offs is just that.

There are many techniques in Aikido to deal with boxers, standoff fighters ect. To appreciate this you should study Kenjutsu. You will see the similarities.

Also look at Daito ryu. You will find Aikido but more complete. Kondo Sensei is the best that I have seen.
The one place that Aikido fails is of course the ground fighting. But I think it was never adapted because Aikido as Daito Ryu are a weapon based art. It is very difficult to grapple with weapons such as the knife. You only need to pin your adversary and kill him with your weapon.
Chokes and this fancy BJJ crap would not work in knive grappling regardless of what people may say. The game is dominate position and Aikido teachs that.The other thing I see people do is try to force Kensetsuwaza techniques. Getting Kote-Gaeshi off of a punch is extreemly difficult. Instead I would try Atemi-nage techniques like Kokyu-nage or Koshi-nage.

To really under stand Aikido you need a very good instructor. With time and hard study you will see that Aikido can be very good handling different fighters. Even though Aikido is a budo art, it does have a bujutsu origin. A Navy Seal Team Two guy told me he loved Aikido and suggested that I study it. So It must be pretty good to impress him.
Ed


[This message has been edited by Ed Glasheen (edited 11-16-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Ed Glasheen (edited 11-16-2004).]

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#127915 - 11/16/04 11:28 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Getting Kote-Gaeshi off of a punch is extreemly difficult. Instead I would try Atemi-nage techniques like Kokyu-nage or Koshi-nage.

You would do a throw, when a guy has a knife? Have you ever trained with a knife? I practice Arnis and another arts that teach how to use a knife in a fight. Based on my knife techniques, and my Aiki practice try one of your throws, and you will die. The biggest problem I see in Aikido, especially after seeing some of the mind sets is Aikido does not practice the attacks for real. You mention a committed attack, so a Shomen attack done no matter how hard and quick is for real? No way. If you had a knife fighter come into your school alot of your impressions would change. You practice pseudo attacks. You practice against a thrust, do you practice with a grab and upper thrust? How about a lead strike followed by a cutting strike?

One of my Sensei has us practicing cutting around the body, and using our free hand and the butt of the knife. Most of these you probably haven't seen and if you tried any throw would be seriously cut. You are going to get cut in a knife fight, so you have to give up something, but not vital points. Before you throw you must disarm,and even that is risky. One must control the wepon right away. I will tell you from free sparring with a knife you have a better shot at kote gaeshi and living then trying to throw.

These assumptions made about handling a boxer, or a kicker or a man wielding a knife is just that assumption. If you tell me you train like that in the dojo fine, but is your partner adept with the knife. Once you learn how to use the knife its hiiden in your hand, and you would not see the cut.Also the grip changes and you will deal with s cuts vs. straight cuts. Aikido is a great art in its place, but those who do not learn to properly attack can not make the connection between what happens for real and what happens in the dojo.you may think you know how to use a knife, its easy, but the person using a knife will be much different then what you practice in the dojo. Same is true for kicks. I have never seen Aiki schools work combination kicking, hand combinations or hand feet combinations. One needs to learn how to attack if he wants to believe he knows how Aiki will work in a real attack

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#127916 - 11/17/04 03:44 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
I totally disagree. I would not do kote gaeshi on a knife attack either..very risky and near impossible. But I understand why you are thinking that way is because you study Kali which is not Aikido. So you mix your arts.
I am not into Kali as all the fancy stuff is not realistic. Grabbing and trying to control the knife hand is very dangerous and will afford you to getting pummeled by the attackers other hand.
As for throws against knife, Aikido syllabus does show techniques. Kote-geashi is not the only thing you can do.
Ernie Emerson also demontrates throws against a knife attacker on his web site.

Personally my first choice against someone with a knife is atemi waza. This "knife fighter " crap in the dojo is not realistic to what happens on the street.
Remember slashing does not kill, stabbing does.
Ed



[This message has been edited by Ed Glasheen (edited 11-17-2004).]

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#127917 - 11/17/04 10:23 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


Good topics!

Okay, so, let me elaborate...

If someone atatcks me and I try to go behind them I think they'll track me and I'll be in a lot of trouble. But, if I move such that when they commit their weight they end up in front of me - facing where I had come from - it accomplishes getting behind them without me doing such risky movements.

So for instance, when a shomen comes in, I start to irimi to their omote side, and step out laterally to the ura side letting them come in front of me - where I pivot to face them and they are not facing me. Trying to hit their arm out of the way and step behind them doesn't work on skilled attackers - you'll end up in a wrestling match at best, and that's just not aikido.

I respect Juba sensei's ability, but be warned, you can get hurt in that class.

About knifes - If you do not have superior fire power and there is nowhere to run then I think the best way to deal with a knife attack is to cross your arms in front of your chest such that back of your forearms are exposed and make them come to you. If you have a knife too, then you can easily slash them and move as they extend towards you. If you don't have a knife, yes you will get cut, but you can limit the damage by eventually redirecting the attaching arm with one of your arms and immediately grabbing and controlling their thumb with your other hand. (Sometimes this is a 3 move combination, and you can add things because there is nothing wrong with atemi waza once you establish some control on that blade.) You can always strip a knife if you control their thumb, and apply pressure at 90 degrees from the opening on their hand. You can use your knife to strip theirs, you can use your hand or elbow, or if you are really cool you can use their body parts like their arm, back, or neck. What we are taught in aikido for taking knives sucks and needs to be changed. Gleason sensei and I have been discussing completely revamping the whole thing, and he'd be best the one to do it from my perspective.

Rob

[This message has been edited by rob_liberti (edited 11-17-2004).]

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#127918 - 11/17/04 11:40 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I am not into Kali as all the fancy stuff is not realistic

Obviously you haven't trained in it, or have had to use it. Think what you will.AIkidoka have this strange idea that somehow Aiki is superior to other arts and that these other arts are flashy, superficial and non effective. Having trained in Aikido, under 2 top Japanese Sensei for over 10 years, and then studying other styles, I have had the chance to see what works, and what doesn't. When you believe a shomen is a real attack you are not dealing with reality. Notice I also said kote gaeshi would be a better choice, and I HAVE taken a knife away with it, but didn't say it was the best choice. Also I study Arnis, not Kali, one is Phillipine and the other Indonesian. They are different!!! But you guys can believe what you want, and hear what you want to hear. The reason I am on this post is I too studied Aikido, and AikiJujutsu and have Dan Ranking in both. I also train in Karate and Jujutsu, so I am here to share with Aikidoka what most haven't seen because they are only Aikido. Yet, most of you will only see your art through your own eyes, and reject everyhthing not Aiki. Your own founder did more than just Aikido, Kendo, Kenjutsu and Daito, yet students seem to think everything Aiki works. Think what you will, I hope the closed eyes, and purist ways don't get you hurt. I love Aikido, for what it is, but there is a real world outside your dojo, and what you explain in your posts, you will get hurt. I am tired of trying to get Aikidka to open their eyes and see that there is more out there, and more than just the Aiki way. Thank God for people like Chris, thats all I got to say.!

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#127919 - 11/17/04 12:20 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


I like reading what Chris has to write as well.

Ed Glasheen explained that he doesn't do aikido.

I think that Aikido is superior in the respect that it is amoung very few arts that does not teach maximum damage. Arnis has some of this as well, in that many times you are striking the stick when you could be striking the hand or arm. Also, aikido teaches in a way where you learn to take it before you learn how to dish it out. Goju karate does a good job with this as well.

I get bugged when I see a martial arts place that teaches 14 types of martial arts where aikido is one of them AND when you ask who the aikido teacher is and what times those classes are they say something like "they are all the same, we teach it all together"! How does that work?! So 14 people attack you in a day, and you do maximum damage to 13 of them, and do a nice throw and pin to the lucky 14th guy?!

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#127920 - 11/17/04 01:37 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
First I am a Menkyo Kadien in Jujutsu. I studied Aikido because I like how it flows. I think it is a beautiful effective art. While my studies do not make me a master, my backround in Jujutsu allows me to understand the priciples and techniques at a higher level than say most students under a dan grade.
I have also studied Kali with Dan Anderson in NYC for a short time. Again I am familar with it's priciples , ie Spanish sword fighting.
I would like to know sensei lou, who did you study with and what style of Aikido did you learn? This way I can understand your perspectives better.
Rob yes injuries do happen in all classes, having worked with Nor Sensei, he is tuff, but I appreciate because I can see how Aikido is suppose to work. It is not a "Westchester" class if you know what I mean. But I have to say your theories on the knive are terrible and will get you hurt. Do not take it as an attack. Not ment to be. But crossing your arms and charging! Ouch!!! If you grab the attacking arm you are now grappling and you can not handle multiple attackers.
Again I suggest you look to Aiki-ken for your answers.
Ed

[This message has been edited by Ed Glasheen (edited 11-17-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Ed Glasheen (edited 11-17-2004).]

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#127921 - 11/17/04 07:18 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Ed Glasheen Offline
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Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Capt Lou where are you???? Ed

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#127922 - 11/18/04 12:13 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I studied with Chiba Sensei for a year before the school I attended changed organizations because Chiba Sensei was too 'hard'. I then was involved with Satome Sensei, Doran Sensei and Ikeda Sensei. Doran Sensei I really liked, the others well thats another story. I know Ikeda Sensei is really nice but I felt it was for general accpetance, in other words, same seminar all the time. I finished my Aikido with who I feel is the greatest Aikidoka Sensei, the late Toyada Sensei. I loved him for his practice and the person. I have also trained with Sam Combs Sensei, Yamana Sensei from Japan,Fujitana Sensei from Japan, and Yamada Sensei. So I've hit on alot of the Aikidoka Sensei. To me Toyada Sensei got his point across the best, Fujitana may be the most gifted, and technical. Another of my major influences is Kuniba Sensei but his Aikido is more Jujutsu oriented. He also studied Shito Ryu Karate as well. When some one views my Aikido it looks more like Kuniba Sensei's, much smaller circle and more direct.

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#127923 - 11/18/04 12:33 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Lets look at a knife fighter. Number 1 what are his influences. I bet if you take a street wise knife fighter from New York, it will be different than one from LA. and then different from the Phiilpino's and different from the Indonesians. My point is there is one thing in common, they all strive to cut you, but not necessarily the same way. The Sensei's from back east that I have trained with, Ibarra Sensei for one, uses the non-knife hand alot for grabbing and striking. They get you to pick off the strike and here comes the knife. One of my Sensei in Hawaii uses the butt end of the knife to hit you and open up the target for the cut. Its unusual, but effective. Point in case the butt will strike the chin then make the cut..He does this all over the body. The knife is held in what we call a hidden grip with the shaft hiding on your forearm. You get hit with the butt, then sliced. I still have no defense for it, and I know its coming and I still get cut. So my point is this, you will get cut, and you need to offer as little as possible, and only what you want them to take. If you offer both arms folded, and you get the tricep and bicep cut, you have no defense. I am sorry to tell you this, but thats exactly what I would do if that was offered to me, I would take out both arms.

Also I have seen the use of x blocks, and this will get you cut as well. One needs to meet and work with knife fighters to see what they do. I was enlightened by one of the "Dog Brothers" Top Dog Eric Knaus. they are based west coast but have "Dogs" all over the world.He had us don fencing masks, and hockey or wrestling gloves and with steel blades go freestyle, face and all. You get a completely different idea when you see the blade cutting across your face. We also cut to the wrists and knees. We also allow stabs. When doing freestyle its knife against knife, stick against stick, and stick against knife. We also try going empty hand against knife to simulate as much as possible knife fighting. We use chalk on the blade and someone always gets cut, it doesn't matter who. I know what its like to have a knife swipe at the face and trying to catch it, and its impossible. My point in all this mess is that you will not see the same type of attack, and to think you could just cross your arms and move in is suicidal.

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#127924 - 11/18/04 01:06 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Ed Glasheen Offline
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Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Thank you, I would of liked to study with Chiba Sensei. So now I know you trained in traditional Aikido ( Ueshiba ). Alot of times you talk to Aikidoka from other off shoots which to me are not Aikido.
I find it odd that you feel the need to train in Philipino arts for your knife solutions? Anyway thanks for answering my question.
Ed

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#127925 - 11/18/04 07:22 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi guys. I'm certainly not a knife expert. However, Ed, I think you misread my post. I didn't say cross you arms and "charge", in fact I wrote the opposite "make them come to you".

Also, I never said you wouldn't get cut. The idea of showing them the back of your forearms is that - since you are going to be cut, it is much better to take a cut there than the other side of your arms.

Also, I've been doing aikido long enough to know there is a time to grapple and a time not to grapple. Obviously, if you are in a multiple attack situation, and they have knives you don't want to lock up with someone - you dno't want to be there at all. But what I'm practicing doesn't result in locking up - it results in taking the knife and surviving.

I found a guy who's done his homework on knife defence and is pretty solid with any kind of attacker. Solid doesn't mean survive without a scratch on him. I'm trying to get him to do a knife class at an aikido seminar in Boston next year. If you are still in New York, let me know if you are interested in attending. I think you might like what you see.

Rob

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#127926 - 11/18/04 09:22 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Ed,

I did respond to you on that other rather lengthy thread!

Chris

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#127927 - 11/18/04 10:54 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I find it odd that you feel the need to train in Philipino arts for your knife solutions?


I didn't say needed to, but that it helped understanding a Phillipino knife fighter to learn how to disarm. Actually I study Arnis for empty hands. i drop the Bastone and do the same techniques without it, that is the reason I study Arnis. Besides, why not? I am a strong believer if you understand the offensive movements its easier to find defensive movements. An example are "s" cuts with the knife. When I was in Aikido nobody discussed different knife grips or different knife cuts. When I face my first person using "s" cuts I was cut all over the place. So I find it always helpful to study the offense to learn a defense, same goes with kicks, the more you do them, you know how they work(technically)and make it easier to defens against a kicker

Ron I understand what you are trying to do, but the way you are going about it is dangerous with an experienced knife fighter.

Finally Ed, why do you question studying Arnis for knife, just wondering?

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#127928 - 11/18/04 07:16 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
I do not feel that the arnis, kali ect, training is realistic to what really transpires in the street and the battlefield. People do not dance around when they are playing for real. To odds of you facing another person with a knife, knife vs knife, stick vs stick are slim to none.
I also do not like the way these arts telegragh there moves...sort of like "west side story"
The Philipine arts are slashing arts. They are not really adaptive to improvised weapons such as a screwdriver. And lastly I was never a fan of ranging and tit for tat exchanges.
Ed

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#127929 - 11/19/04 12:10 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Ed.....you may be right, but I think its who is teaching it. Those tit for tat, and fancy tecniques are drills, not really self defense techniques. But again, I guess it depends on how its taught. Our Sensei who was trained under Remy Presas, and travled with him, stresses flow and drill versus self-defense, so we get both. the way he teaches knife is different also. So I guess it depends on who you see. I will tell you that when we show our knife work, people have been impressed with the reality of our empty hands and bastone work.

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#127930 - 11/19/04 10:19 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


I would recommend the following as a good read: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html

The idea of things being "lies" is not semantically correct, but it is good information.

I worked out with several of the guys who studied with Remy Presas too. It is good stuff, but "the art within your art" gets annoying when it is overused and misunderstood.

Rob

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#127931 - 12/07/04 06:12 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
This is exactly the mind set I am talking about. The man is in your house for Christ sakes! He obviously didn't come for dinner. Its this mamby pamby "oh he didn't threaten me" crap that I am talking about. You have made my point. If you won't get aggressive and kick someones ass who has violated the sanctity of your home, and endanger your loved ones, you will never understand, and thats my point, you made it very well for me. One day you will wake up, sadly, its going to take someone hurting you or your loved ones before the message will sink in. Keep on waiting for them to do something, next time it could be an automatic weapon pulled, by the time you wait for his attack and decide he is a threat you will be dead. Great thinking partner![/QUOTE]

Wow what a reaction..
What is namby pamby about adding more than is necessary?
By your own admission, using the break and enter scenario. You kick this guys arse, and send him packing. You feel justified and vindicated for doing so. Later that same night he comes back with his automatic weapon and decides to ventilate you.
You do not know why he is in the house, you make assumptions based upon your fear based reactions.
Had you have shown control maybe the person would not feel the need to regain face.

How do you know the said person is even threatening your family? Again you do not.
It is all just speculation and delving into the realm of what if?

That very thing happened here in Brisbane Australia, a youth entered a persons house.
The resident being elderly came down with his rifle. He believed the youth had a gun, he shot the youth and killed him instantly.

When the police came it was discovered that in the dead of night the silohette he thought was a gun was nothing but a stick.
The boy entered on a prank, because the window was open.
Who did the boy threaten?
What sanctity did that boy violate?

The man shot first and asked questions later, he got off scott free, because of his age.
A boy is dead, because of foolishness and over reaction, because when the man could simply have been namby pamby and threatened, he chose to be aggressive and kill.

You show your arrogance and lack of understanding by your vigilante style MA attitude.
You live in a society based on fear, I am not surprised you post the way you do.

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#127932 - 12/07/04 08:40 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
That boy is dead because of his own foolishness. What business did he have "playing a prank" on an old man? How do you know he was just playing a prank, cause his buddy said so? What do you expect him to say after the fact "Yeah, my man there was going to rob the old dude?"

I'm not a violent person and I walk rather than see if trouble is going to start, but nobody has any business in my house without an invitation.

Chris

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#127933 - 12/08/04 02:20 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
This situation goes round and round. You will always have people who deny you can get a lock on them and Aikidoka who swear they can. The argument is such that there is no answer. You can say you have the technique but let it go for fear of injury but what if your opponent hit you with full power and speed, you may never get the technique. Also strikes in combination , can be difficult to get with "dojo Aikido". On the flip side, most Karateka will deny the need for the locks and swear you'd never get them. If you do you can cause injury and if you don't the technique may not work. Personally I think both are good to have and one can compliment the other. Sometimes you need something beside hitting someone in the face, say a relative or friend. Locks really help here. Also it may help to have an offense if someone is in your house and you need to start the encounter. Aikido is mostly defensive, Karate can be both offensive and defensive. Like the boxer, the one who attacks all the time and the counter puncher. I know of an Aikido Sensei who found a burgular in his house. He faced the robber but did not attack. The robber stunned that he was not attacked, started a fire between the two, and the Aikido Sensei almost died in the fire. Instead of waiting for the robber to attack, he should have seized the moment and attacked the robber. I askled him why he didn't and he said, I wasn't sure what kind of attack to do, I always am defensive, I always counter act or neutralize an attack, I wasn't sure how to handle the situation. A liitle Karate training would have been a big help.[/QUOTE]

Basically this 'sensei' was most likely a good teacher and that is all.
Aikido isn't just defence or offence. If that is the thinking mode, then nothing he ever does will work.
The reason he didn't know what to do, was because he was thinking.

The whole idea of tai sabaki, randori, sparring etc, is to train the body. Put simply it is to build muscle memory.
During such an episode, he could have easily stepped forward, nothing more nothing less. That would have created a movement or opening for a movement.

ig.

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#127934 - 12/08/04 02:49 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


As for the koto gaeshi from a punch or knife attack, it is not impossible. It and many other forms can be achieved.

Ago uchi for example, basically a jaw strike.

Part of my training was in weapons taking.
Taking the jo, bo, katana, tanto, etc.
Also in free form tanto training, in kakari keiko.
One of the training sequences in tanto, was to learn how to use it correctly.
We would literally have to launch across the mat and attack our uke, uke was then to also launch but backwards and do a deflection.
This is good for achieving centre. It also gives you a good view of how easily it is for a knife worker to bind up an opponent before they have a chance to respond.

When I did my security training, we had to watch a compulsary video on knife attacks.
The New York police commissioned a few professional martial artists and knife fighters to surprise attack a police officer. Basically a simulation.
It was seen that I knife wielder could easily bind up a police officer from a distance of 7-9 ft, before the officer could draw and fire their weapon. Outside 9 ft the knife is impracticle.

Part of my grading was Tanto kata.
Part of my general training, as I was specialising in katana/tanto was to free form train with both of these weapons.
Learning to use one correctly, to disarm someone else, to take and throw them effectively, etc.

Nothing is impossible, just sometimes improbable.

ig

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#127935 - 12/08/04 10:12 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


I invite you to take a chance and read "The virtues of Aikido" by Stanley Pranin (ref. Aikido Journal) where you can see the concern of many aikidokas regarding "cross training". I observed this when I began training Aikido some years ago. As a former Shotokan kohai and now an aikido kohai, I saw the importance of an effective attack while practicing Aikido and discussed this many times with my instructors, some disagreed saying that the atemi tought in aikido are effective, others agreed with me. I think that not every dojo has the luck of having instructors that have practiced other martial arts, so, in my opinion, take advantage of this. And yes, it's not a matter of being harmonic or not in such a situation... if someone enters my house, I will be very harmonic with him, TRUST ME! using atemi-waza, a bokken, a jo or whatever at hand before he can react, if I have the chance of course. No one sneaking into my house will enter with a "harmonic attitude". I guess the sensei referred to of the burglar event had no "cross training" in other arts, there we see the importance of when to apply what technique, no matter if a weapon is or not in question. O' Sensei ALWAYS, repeat, ALWAYS, underlined the importance of atemi. I also was taught by my Sensei, that if there is a weapon involved, NO MERCY, that doesn't mean that I have to kill but again it depends on each circumstance, either it's you or your opponent, there is where you use a more agressive aikido technique, and why not, combined with another art. I guess he's not talking foolishness being a 6th dan and police trainer. Added to this, various instructors would tell us something very important and that is in Randori you may wait for an attack or provoke one as well, that is to be the offensive one in order to follow the flow, that is because you don't want more than one person to attack at the same time, you react before they recat... so, figure out what attitude you may want to use in such event.
By all means, we try to avoid being aggresive, no matter if it's Aikido, Karate, jujutsu or whatever, we only REACT in different ways under a specific situation, therefore it's complicated to know what might be your reaction no matter how experienced you may be.

I'm glad this topic showed up... it will lead into lots more, I'm sure.

Regards,
Aikipana

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#127936 - 12/08/04 01:55 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


What is namby pamby about adding more than is necessary?
By your own admission, using the break and enter scenario. You kick this guys arse, and send him packing. You feel justified and vindicated for doing so. Later that same night he comes back with his automatic weapon and decides to ventilate you.
"You do not know why he is in the house, you make assumptions based upon your fear based reactions.
Had you have shown control maybe the person would not feel the need to regain face.

How do you know the said person is even threatening your family? Again you do not."

Igneous is clearly not a father. There is a certain obligation that comes with that which would make him understand. In the instance of an intruder, rather, any potential danger to my son's well being, there are no questions to be asked. There is not a moment of hesitation.

I've studied aikido for 8 years, four of which was spent as uchi-deshi under yamada sensei. I have used it in self defense and I'm confident using it. I'm willing to take a chance on my own life, perhaps, but I take no chances with the safety of my 5 month old.

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#127937 - 12/11/04 12:37 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by ottorotciv:
What is namby pamby about adding more than is necessary?
By your own admission, using the break and enter scenario. You kick this guys arse, and send him packing. You feel justified and vindicated for doing so. Later that same night he comes back with his automatic weapon and decides to ventilate you.
"You do not know why he is in the house, you make assumptions based upon your fear based reactions.
Had you have shown control maybe the person would not feel the need to regain face.

How do you know the said person is even threatening your family? Again you do not."

Igneous is clearly not a father. There is a certain obligation that comes with that which would make him understand. In the instance of an intruder, rather, any potential danger to my son's well being, there are no questions to be asked. There is not a moment of hesitation.

I've studied aikido for 8 years, four of which was spent as uchi-deshi under yamada sensei. I have used it in self defense and I'm confident using it. I'm willing to take a chance on my own life, perhaps, but I take no chances with the safety of my 5 month old.
[/QUOTE]

You are correct I am not a father, but that does not change the fact that sometimes one can go to far.
Whether I am a father or not makes absolutely no difference, I have ppl in my house my spouse, my elderly mother.

But I do not live in the land of "What IF". What if a guy breaks in to my house, what if something happens when I walk outside. What if nothing ever happens.

It is all just speculative arguments.
I work in security. I have used only two techinques ever and they were the most basic of techniques ever.
Zengo no undo ho - reverse direction breath techinque it is a breathing excercise. But made a fantastic off the wall counter.
That and a palm strike, and leg lock. The latter I just made up at the time.

So in my ten odd years study in Takemusu kai and Aiki Taijutsu study. I used only two basic moves and one was for cultivating correct breath.
Sometimes a little is enough and a lot is to much.
As your training should tell you.
There is no such thing as self defence.
If you need to defend yourself it is to late!

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#127938 - 12/11/04 02:40 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Sometimes a little is enough and a lot is to much.
As your training should tell you.
There is no such thing as self defence.
If you need to defend yourself it is to late!
Well said and very true!
Ed

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#127939 - 12/11/04 07:37 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


(Gah damn computer made it look like I dbl posted... that is why I made the edit).



[This message has been edited by igneous (edited 12-11-2004).]

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