FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 22 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
SenseiGregT, sagat, JFawkes, pluckysaga39, sgtdemeo
22911 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
AndyLA 5
Dobbersky 5
Ed_Morris 4
futsaowingchun 3
ergees 3
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
New Topics
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
Today at 03:51 AM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
Chi Sao demonstration
by futsaowingchun
08/14/14 10:57 PM
Decent Fight channel
by FrankyFruits
08/07/14 09:19 PM
2014 European Championships Cadets Athens: Videos
by ergees
08/07/14 10:00 AM
Life goes on....
by Dobbersky
08/07/14 05:59 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:14 AM
Recent Posts
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
Today at 03:51 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Zombie Zero
08/29/14 10:50 PM
mindfullness meditation
by log1call
08/28/14 02:39 AM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:58 PM
The Karate punch
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:27 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
attacked from behind
by AndyLA
08/16/14 04:59 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by VDJ
08/15/14 05:46 PM
Forum Stats
22911 Members
36 Forums
35573 Topics
432484 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 3 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#127914 - 11/16/04 03:36 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
First let me say that I have been always been facinated with Aikido. The question asked at the begining is a very good one. One that has been asked alot.

Although I do not study Aikido on a regular basis I did study with Juba Nor Sensei in Manhattan. Now I find his Aikido very effective as he was under Chiba Sensei who in my opinion is pretty hardcore not to mess around with guy. That is my backround.

Aikido is taught with commited attacks by the uke. Most people belive this is based on Kenjustu, but in my opinion most real attacks with or without weapons are commited. The boxing, UFC stuff as in sports and high school square offs is just that.

There are many techniques in Aikido to deal with boxers, standoff fighters ect. To appreciate this you should study Kenjutsu. You will see the similarities.

Also look at Daito ryu. You will find Aikido but more complete. Kondo Sensei is the best that I have seen.
The one place that Aikido fails is of course the ground fighting. But I think it was never adapted because Aikido as Daito Ryu are a weapon based art. It is very difficult to grapple with weapons such as the knife. You only need to pin your adversary and kill him with your weapon.
Chokes and this fancy BJJ crap would not work in knive grappling regardless of what people may say. The game is dominate position and Aikido teachs that.The other thing I see people do is try to force Kensetsuwaza techniques. Getting Kote-Gaeshi off of a punch is extreemly difficult. Instead I would try Atemi-nage techniques like Kokyu-nage or Koshi-nage.

To really under stand Aikido you need a very good instructor. With time and hard study you will see that Aikido can be very good handling different fighters. Even though Aikido is a budo art, it does have a bujutsu origin. A Navy Seal Team Two guy told me he loved Aikido and suggested that I study it. So It must be pretty good to impress him.
Ed


[This message has been edited by Ed Glasheen (edited 11-16-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Ed Glasheen (edited 11-16-2004).]

Top
#127915 - 11/16/04 11:28 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Getting Kote-Gaeshi off of a punch is extreemly difficult. Instead I would try Atemi-nage techniques like Kokyu-nage or Koshi-nage.

You would do a throw, when a guy has a knife? Have you ever trained with a knife? I practice Arnis and another arts that teach how to use a knife in a fight. Based on my knife techniques, and my Aiki practice try one of your throws, and you will die. The biggest problem I see in Aikido, especially after seeing some of the mind sets is Aikido does not practice the attacks for real. You mention a committed attack, so a Shomen attack done no matter how hard and quick is for real? No way. If you had a knife fighter come into your school alot of your impressions would change. You practice pseudo attacks. You practice against a thrust, do you practice with a grab and upper thrust? How about a lead strike followed by a cutting strike?

One of my Sensei has us practicing cutting around the body, and using our free hand and the butt of the knife. Most of these you probably haven't seen and if you tried any throw would be seriously cut. You are going to get cut in a knife fight, so you have to give up something, but not vital points. Before you throw you must disarm,and even that is risky. One must control the wepon right away. I will tell you from free sparring with a knife you have a better shot at kote gaeshi and living then trying to throw.

These assumptions made about handling a boxer, or a kicker or a man wielding a knife is just that assumption. If you tell me you train like that in the dojo fine, but is your partner adept with the knife. Once you learn how to use the knife its hiiden in your hand, and you would not see the cut.Also the grip changes and you will deal with s cuts vs. straight cuts. Aikido is a great art in its place, but those who do not learn to properly attack can not make the connection between what happens for real and what happens in the dojo.you may think you know how to use a knife, its easy, but the person using a knife will be much different then what you practice in the dojo. Same is true for kicks. I have never seen Aiki schools work combination kicking, hand combinations or hand feet combinations. One needs to learn how to attack if he wants to believe he knows how Aiki will work in a real attack

Top
#127916 - 11/17/04 03:44 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
I totally disagree. I would not do kote gaeshi on a knife attack either..very risky and near impossible. But I understand why you are thinking that way is because you study Kali which is not Aikido. So you mix your arts.
I am not into Kali as all the fancy stuff is not realistic. Grabbing and trying to control the knife hand is very dangerous and will afford you to getting pummeled by the attackers other hand.
As for throws against knife, Aikido syllabus does show techniques. Kote-geashi is not the only thing you can do.
Ernie Emerson also demontrates throws against a knife attacker on his web site.

Personally my first choice against someone with a knife is atemi waza. This "knife fighter " crap in the dojo is not realistic to what happens on the street.
Remember slashing does not kill, stabbing does.
Ed



[This message has been edited by Ed Glasheen (edited 11-17-2004).]

Top
#127917 - 11/17/04 10:23 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


Good topics!

Okay, so, let me elaborate...

If someone atatcks me and I try to go behind them I think they'll track me and I'll be in a lot of trouble. But, if I move such that when they commit their weight they end up in front of me - facing where I had come from - it accomplishes getting behind them without me doing such risky movements.

So for instance, when a shomen comes in, I start to irimi to their omote side, and step out laterally to the ura side letting them come in front of me - where I pivot to face them and they are not facing me. Trying to hit their arm out of the way and step behind them doesn't work on skilled attackers - you'll end up in a wrestling match at best, and that's just not aikido.

I respect Juba sensei's ability, but be warned, you can get hurt in that class.

About knifes - If you do not have superior fire power and there is nowhere to run then I think the best way to deal with a knife attack is to cross your arms in front of your chest such that back of your forearms are exposed and make them come to you. If you have a knife too, then you can easily slash them and move as they extend towards you. If you don't have a knife, yes you will get cut, but you can limit the damage by eventually redirecting the attaching arm with one of your arms and immediately grabbing and controlling their thumb with your other hand. (Sometimes this is a 3 move combination, and you can add things because there is nothing wrong with atemi waza once you establish some control on that blade.) You can always strip a knife if you control their thumb, and apply pressure at 90 degrees from the opening on their hand. You can use your knife to strip theirs, you can use your hand or elbow, or if you are really cool you can use their body parts like their arm, back, or neck. What we are taught in aikido for taking knives sucks and needs to be changed. Gleason sensei and I have been discussing completely revamping the whole thing, and he'd be best the one to do it from my perspective.

Rob

[This message has been edited by rob_liberti (edited 11-17-2004).]

Top
#127918 - 11/17/04 11:40 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I am not into Kali as all the fancy stuff is not realistic

Obviously you haven't trained in it, or have had to use it. Think what you will.AIkidoka have this strange idea that somehow Aiki is superior to other arts and that these other arts are flashy, superficial and non effective. Having trained in Aikido, under 2 top Japanese Sensei for over 10 years, and then studying other styles, I have had the chance to see what works, and what doesn't. When you believe a shomen is a real attack you are not dealing with reality. Notice I also said kote gaeshi would be a better choice, and I HAVE taken a knife away with it, but didn't say it was the best choice. Also I study Arnis, not Kali, one is Phillipine and the other Indonesian. They are different!!! But you guys can believe what you want, and hear what you want to hear. The reason I am on this post is I too studied Aikido, and AikiJujutsu and have Dan Ranking in both. I also train in Karate and Jujutsu, so I am here to share with Aikidoka what most haven't seen because they are only Aikido. Yet, most of you will only see your art through your own eyes, and reject everyhthing not Aiki. Your own founder did more than just Aikido, Kendo, Kenjutsu and Daito, yet students seem to think everything Aiki works. Think what you will, I hope the closed eyes, and purist ways don't get you hurt. I love Aikido, for what it is, but there is a real world outside your dojo, and what you explain in your posts, you will get hurt. I am tired of trying to get Aikidka to open their eyes and see that there is more out there, and more than just the Aiki way. Thank God for people like Chris, thats all I got to say.!

Top
#127919 - 11/17/04 12:20 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


I like reading what Chris has to write as well.

Ed Glasheen explained that he doesn't do aikido.

I think that Aikido is superior in the respect that it is amoung very few arts that does not teach maximum damage. Arnis has some of this as well, in that many times you are striking the stick when you could be striking the hand or arm. Also, aikido teaches in a way where you learn to take it before you learn how to dish it out. Goju karate does a good job with this as well.

I get bugged when I see a martial arts place that teaches 14 types of martial arts where aikido is one of them AND when you ask who the aikido teacher is and what times those classes are they say something like "they are all the same, we teach it all together"! How does that work?! So 14 people attack you in a day, and you do maximum damage to 13 of them, and do a nice throw and pin to the lucky 14th guy?!

Top
#127920 - 11/17/04 01:37 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
First I am a Menkyo Kadien in Jujutsu. I studied Aikido because I like how it flows. I think it is a beautiful effective art. While my studies do not make me a master, my backround in Jujutsu allows me to understand the priciples and techniques at a higher level than say most students under a dan grade.
I have also studied Kali with Dan Anderson in NYC for a short time. Again I am familar with it's priciples , ie Spanish sword fighting.
I would like to know sensei lou, who did you study with and what style of Aikido did you learn? This way I can understand your perspectives better.
Rob yes injuries do happen in all classes, having worked with Nor Sensei, he is tuff, but I appreciate because I can see how Aikido is suppose to work. It is not a "Westchester" class if you know what I mean. But I have to say your theories on the knive are terrible and will get you hurt. Do not take it as an attack. Not ment to be. But crossing your arms and charging! Ouch!!! If you grab the attacking arm you are now grappling and you can not handle multiple attackers.
Again I suggest you look to Aiki-ken for your answers.
Ed

[This message has been edited by Ed Glasheen (edited 11-17-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Ed Glasheen (edited 11-17-2004).]

Top
#127921 - 11/17/04 07:18 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Capt Lou where are you???? Ed

Top
#127922 - 11/18/04 12:13 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I studied with Chiba Sensei for a year before the school I attended changed organizations because Chiba Sensei was too 'hard'. I then was involved with Satome Sensei, Doran Sensei and Ikeda Sensei. Doran Sensei I really liked, the others well thats another story. I know Ikeda Sensei is really nice but I felt it was for general accpetance, in other words, same seminar all the time. I finished my Aikido with who I feel is the greatest Aikidoka Sensei, the late Toyada Sensei. I loved him for his practice and the person. I have also trained with Sam Combs Sensei, Yamana Sensei from Japan,Fujitana Sensei from Japan, and Yamada Sensei. So I've hit on alot of the Aikidoka Sensei. To me Toyada Sensei got his point across the best, Fujitana may be the most gifted, and technical. Another of my major influences is Kuniba Sensei but his Aikido is more Jujutsu oriented. He also studied Shito Ryu Karate as well. When some one views my Aikido it looks more like Kuniba Sensei's, much smaller circle and more direct.

Top
#127923 - 11/18/04 12:33 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Lets look at a knife fighter. Number 1 what are his influences. I bet if you take a street wise knife fighter from New York, it will be different than one from LA. and then different from the Phiilpino's and different from the Indonesians. My point is there is one thing in common, they all strive to cut you, but not necessarily the same way. The Sensei's from back east that I have trained with, Ibarra Sensei for one, uses the non-knife hand alot for grabbing and striking. They get you to pick off the strike and here comes the knife. One of my Sensei in Hawaii uses the butt end of the knife to hit you and open up the target for the cut. Its unusual, but effective. Point in case the butt will strike the chin then make the cut..He does this all over the body. The knife is held in what we call a hidden grip with the shaft hiding on your forearm. You get hit with the butt, then sliced. I still have no defense for it, and I know its coming and I still get cut. So my point is this, you will get cut, and you need to offer as little as possible, and only what you want them to take. If you offer both arms folded, and you get the tricep and bicep cut, you have no defense. I am sorry to tell you this, but thats exactly what I would do if that was offered to me, I would take out both arms.

Also I have seen the use of x blocks, and this will get you cut as well. One needs to meet and work with knife fighters to see what they do. I was enlightened by one of the "Dog Brothers" Top Dog Eric Knaus. they are based west coast but have "Dogs" all over the world.He had us don fencing masks, and hockey or wrestling gloves and with steel blades go freestyle, face and all. You get a completely different idea when you see the blade cutting across your face. We also cut to the wrists and knees. We also allow stabs. When doing freestyle its knife against knife, stick against stick, and stick against knife. We also try going empty hand against knife to simulate as much as possible knife fighting. We use chalk on the blade and someone always gets cut, it doesn't matter who. I know what its like to have a knife swipe at the face and trying to catch it, and its impossible. My point in all this mess is that you will not see the same type of attack, and to think you could just cross your arms and move in is suicidal.

Top
Page 3 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Self Defense
Offering stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and other self defense products not available in stores.

Pepper Spray
Online distributor of self defense supplies like videos, stun guns, Tasers and more.

Spy Cameras
Surveillance, Hidden Cameras, Nanny Cams, Digital Recorders, Spy Equipment, Pocket DVR's and more

Stun Gun
Wholesale Directlhy to the Public! Stun gun and Taser Guns and personal protection products. Keep your loved ones at home safe!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga