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#127904 - 09/28/04 03:01 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by atemiwaza:
Why would you hesitate to let the robber draw a weapon? if hes waving a gun around in the first place fair anough, theres not much you can do, but if you catch the guy in surprise, youd never let him put his hands in his pockets/jacket[/QUOTE]

That to me would be the beginnings of an attack and I would then act. As you probably know there are many techniques in aikido on how to deal with someone who's drawing a weapon.

I believe hurting or causing pain to an attacker is not really a problem as this is not a permanent thing. I'm unsure as to whether I would try and intentionally cause injury. I have been taught in serious circumstances of how to break limbs by one sensei. I suppose in a serious attack, I'd rather the attacker suffer a broken limb than either of us losing our lives.

Every situation is different and I suppose you'd have to assess it accordingly in order to defend yourself successfully.

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#127905 - 09/28/04 06:09 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
I will not stand by and watch an intruder in MY house and wait for him to decide what he is going to do. My point was if you wait THEN you have the gun to deal with. If you are in my house uninvited, you are going to get your ass beat.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
I always try to avoid a confrontation, and I give my attacker every chance to leave, and in some cases I may choose to leave if I don't feel its a serious threat. [/QUOTE]

I feel the two comments you made above within the same post contradict one another.

I apologise if you felt like I came across as 'holier than thou'. I didn't mean to and don't see myself above or below anyone so I'm sorry if I caused any offence.


[This message has been edited by Chanters (edited 09-28-2004).]

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#127906 - 09/28/04 03:03 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


well you didnt offend me at all chanters! thanks for your erplies in the topic! we're all here for our love of martial arts training and hopefully to learn something new!

i think it is a nice philosophy to not want to hurt your attacker, but i dont think its realistically possible to exercise that level of control over a ravenous 18 stone nutcase, intent on hurting you, no matter what your level of martial arts training. (why is it that my attackers are never ever smaller/wimpier than i am??? lol)
at the end of the day it is your bottle, and how far your willing to go.....a guy going crazy in the bar because ive spilt his pint? id buy him another! he continues to be aggresive, time to get the girlfreind and go somewhere else!swallow your pride and live another day!

....but in your house! you just cant risk him deciding wether or not to attack, id shout and swear as i approached the thief, telling him i'd bite his nose off etc (hopefully he'll go straight to "flight" mode) but thats about as diplomatic as i woudl get. its important to allow the attacker space to flee, for example, you swearing at the guy to get out, but blocking the doorway. if he has a free choice, either you or the exit, he will be more inclined to take the easy way out. on the other hand if you feel your gonna be in for a fight you have to be explosive and ferocious and do anything it takes to win...

chanters: " I have been taught in serious circumstances of how to break limbs by one sensei. I suppose in a serious attack, I'd rather the attacker suffer a broken limb than either of us losing our lives"

my sensei tought me that ALL aikido techniques can break limbs, and that they all start with a strike (that should finish the fight anyway) he also said if you get nocked down, and theres a brick next to you, take it with you when you get back up. dont thinkfor one second that your attacker will be thinking of your welfare when he stamps on your head. ive worked in nightclubs for some time, try wristlocks on someone whos pissed as a fart, and high on cocaine/ecstasy and they wont feel it, ive seen guys like that been stamped onin the groin, and the face and got up of the floor, been nocked down and got up again! and again, and again... its probably daft to presume that anyone who enters your home is a reasonable individual, that can be spoken to liek a reasonable individual.

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#127907 - 09/29/04 06:05 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
This has gotten a bit off the original question but I think it has taken a very interesting turn.

In the scenario Sensei Lou established with a burglar in the house, the aikido sensei didn't have any option other than to wait for an attack. A totally passive response and one that I would never want to be limited to.

I don't interprete any of the aikido philosophies I've ever heard as meaning you have to be or should train to be passive. In fact most of the really good Aiki folks (and non-siki for that matter)I've had the opportunity to work with have owned me before there was an attack. I've been in front of people in the dojo and I knew that when I attacked it wasn't going to be pretty for me.

The true essence for me is taking control of the situation and you do that with controlling distance and angles. You can control the initiative verbally and with posture... There are a lot of things that you can do up to and including nailing the guy.

For those that really like to think in terms of "harmony" the guy broke all harmony once he broke into your house. At that point it is up to you to start restoring some harmony!

Chris

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#127908 - 09/29/04 06:10 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Atemi-

As for your original question, in my experience working with karate and BJJ guys, I think you need two things that aren't taught in most of the aikido dojo's I've visited.

1. You need some good atemi skills. Before everone jumps on me to say you train a lot of atemi, I'm just refering to most of the places I've visited in the western part of the USA. Without some good atemi skills you allow the person you are sparring with to dictate distance, timing, tempo and they get to pick their opening.
2. You need some understanding of what their weapons are, what the ranges are and how they might use them. If you've never seen a BJJ guy come in fast for a double leg after a couple of jabs, it is pretty interesting!

Of course I'm sure that there are many folks out there with more skill than I that can handle this sort of thing twice before breakfast!

Chris

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#127909 - 09/30/04 02:03 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Chris's point about working atemi waza is correct. Many times I talk to Aikidoka who say they train with atemi waza. Yet when you ask them if they just practice atemi waza the answer is no.In order to use striking skills they must be honed, and practiced. I know the art of Aiki doesn't have a set striking curriculum, but in order to have a good striking base it has to be repeated and repeated. On one of these posts someone talks about once you know how to punch you know, you don't need to practice striking. this is wrong.......no matter how you use striking it must be practiced, and while Aikido may employ striking its not practiced and as Chris points out, you need to understand the nature of the striker. Aikido techniques would have to be modified to handle a shotkan stylist from a boxing practioner. In order to really undertand striking it must be practiced.

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#127910 - 11/08/04 11:37 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


I keep seeing this "boxer" problem come up and I haev to say that I will not play their game. I am not trying to get points, so I don't have to stand at the boxer's favorite distance and try to get a number of jabs in under a certain amount of time! A boxer that can defend a kick is a serious fighter because they can take a punch and many aikido people have no idea if they can take a punch.

I have to say that teaching aikido has toughened me up more than fighting my older brother for all those years when we were growing up. I get beginners swinging bokken at my head when they are supposed to be swinging at my legs - and yes the first time I said "yoko ashi" and got clobbered in the side of the head I laughed (when the room stopped spinning) and said "okay, ashi means foot, and let's slow down a bit". But hey I was teaching kata and I didn't do a very good job! (I got much better at avoiding that and defending my whole body eventhough they are "supposed" to be swinging at just one part!)

Anyway, a boxer is a serious threat, but you can make your own aikido kata for dealing with good combinations like jab, jab, cross, upper cut, jab, etc... Try to enter and turn and see if you can get them to naturally follow you into a less favorable distance for them, or catch that upper cut on it's way back and turn it into kotegaishi, etc... I think the important thing to do is to be level appropriate. I would say let the people yondan and higher work on it after class.

With Judo attacks that don't rush in, first I think you need to make it dificult/impossible for them to touch you on their terms. When they do touch you, you need to establish the right connection and make space appropriately. This kind of thing can be studied in kihon waza. Can you do tenchi nage, such that if an attacker with good kokyu ho is grabbing you that they cannot let go without being in danger of you instantly hitting them? If not, look deeper because it is in there.

Rob

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#127911 - 11/08/04 05:48 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Rob,

Very good point, since our goal is not to "box" the other guy we have the opportunity to take him out of his game. This past weekend I watched two Tang Soo Do 3rd dans sparring and thought about what I would do in front of one of them.

I took comfort in the fact that my goal would not be to score a point or land a strike but rather to get behind them and take their balance. Hopefully without getting clocked to many times or too badly in the process!

Chris

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#127912 - 11/16/04 11:57 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


It doesn't work very well when you try to get behind someone who is attacking you. It is much easier and more effective to work on trying to get them to end up in front of you while they are attacking.

This distinction is important. It goes back to really figuring out how to make the appropriate space while maintaining that fragile connection - which answers all the questions about how to deal with a lack of momentum.

Rob

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#127913 - 11/16/04 01:23 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
It doesn't work very well when you try to get behind someone who is attacking you.

Am I missing something? I am not sure about this answer. One primary goal is to get to the attackers blind side or his back. Getting an oponents back is an ideal situation. Unless you are talking about something else, getting the persons back is what I want, and its not hard to do. The first thing I teach my students is not to give someone their back. So I am not sure I understand this remark. Most Aiki arts are based in front of them, but does not mean its ideal. We talk about moving to the dark side where the attackers vision is less and can not see the what the person is going to do. we have nurmerous techniques that get you to the back of someone. If you are saying you can't get you Aiki techniques to work from the rear, maybe, but you should add something to your arsenal that gets you back their. Even a boxer, if you trap and manipulate them you can get to their rear. I think this is once again a question of form and function. Traditional Aiki doesn't go there but you can bet if I get your back, your DONE!

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