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#127894 - 09/22/04 10:11 PM Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


does anyone have any experience using aikido techniques on attackers ( more aptly sparring partners) that arn't 100% trying to kill you, like a boxer who punches on balance, or judoka that doesnt just rush in.? ive recently started cross training (not a fad follower) in jujitsu and judo in an honest quest to be more enlightened. my sensei says just smack em, lol.

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#127895 - 09/23/04 02:36 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Once again, seems I always am saying this, it depends on the person. I have seen Aikido used against Karate type sparring, in fact I used Aikido in sparring against some Karate students. there is nothing like a good smack in the mouth to get someone's attention. Your Sensei is correct. What I found is this. Just Aiki with no atemi waza,rarely works. You must set up your techniques. If you were an experienced Aikidoka against a beginner in Karate you could probably get away without Atemi waza. My sparring early on using just Aikido I was not very suceesful. I was a Black Belt and studied for 10 years, so I was no beginner. First let me say that I don't think Aikido was created to defend against a Karate-ka, the philosopy and movements do not lend themselves to being properly applied in a sparring arena. After studying Karate for years, I found learning that art and combining my striking with my Aiki arts worked real well. However my Aiiki had to be modified to work in a sparring session. The nature of sparring is different than Jiyu waza or Randori in Aikido. In Aiki there is pretty much only defense movements even though you are moving in to the attacker. In Karate, especially sparring your goal is multiple striking and hitting your targets with combinations and kicking techniques. Most Aiki styles do not practice against combinations, so its hard to defend against something you haven't practiced against. I don't think the purpose of Aikido is to use in a sparring situation. Another issue is you can't apply a lock at full speed or power as you will injure you opponent. A strike is what it says, and can come at near full speed and power (though rarely done) in Kumite. So you have two distinct differences in application and mind set. Its great to learn HOW to adapt your Aiki so you can "play nicely with others" but its no indication of how it works for real. Its also very difficult to set up Aiki techniques when facing a boxer with out tagging his some. I believe the best thing is to be able to strike and kick (from long range)lock(from mid range) and grapple(in close)so you have all your ranges covered.

Another interesting point is Aiki philosophy and Karate. Having trained in both, I have had the Aiki peace and harmony lecture more than I care to remember. There is very little 'harmony' in sparring lessons or competition. So you need to understand what you are dealing with when you are in both arenas

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#127896 - 09/23/04 08:44 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


thanks sensei lou, i might have to get some karate training in then too...im running out of days in the week tho! what you said about applying techniques correctly with full speed and power....were a little stuck in aikido arn't we?, i mean is it preferable if our opponent has done some aikido, so they can receive the technique!? seriously tho its hard to train aikido with other people, getting it to work on uncooperative opponents can be difficult. has anyone else had an opening for a technique on ther freinds, only to start the technique and suddenly stop, as to not do them an injury? thats all ok, but its hard to argue that you had em......it comes across even worse if you say "well if you did aikido you'd be able to fall properly blah blah blah...."

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#127897 - 09/24/04 02:50 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
This situation goes round and round. You will always have people who deny you can get a lock on them and Aikidoka who swear they can. The argument is such that there is no answer. You can say you have the technique but let it go for fear of injury but what if your opponent hit you with full power and speed, you may never get the technique. Also strikes in combination , can be difficult to get with "dojo Aikido". On the flip side, most Karateka will deny the need for the locks and swear you'd never get them. If you do you can cause injury and if you don't the technique may not work. Personally I think both are good to have and one can compliment the other. Sometimes you need something beside hitting someone in the face, say a relative or friend. Locks really help here. Also it may help to have an offense if someone is in your house and you need to start the encounter. Aikido is mostly defensive, Karate can be both offensive and defensive. Like the boxer, the one who attacks all the time and the counter puncher. I know of an Aikido Sensei who found a burgular in his house. He faced the robber but did not attack. The robber stunned that he was not attacked, started a fire between the two, and the Aikido Sensei almost died in the fire. Instead of waiting for the robber to attack, he should have seized the moment and attacked the robber. I askled him why he didn't and he said, I wasn't sure what kind of attack to do, I always am defensive, I always counter act or neutralize an attack, I wasn't sure how to handle the situation. A liitle Karate training would have been a big help.

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#127898 - 09/24/04 05:48 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
This situation goes round and round. You will always have people who deny you can get a lock on them and Aikidoka who swear they can. The argument is such that there is no answer. You can say you have the technique but let it go for fear of injury but what if your opponent hit you with full power and speed, you may never get the technique. Also strikes in combination , can be difficult to get with "dojo Aikido". On the flip side, most Karateka will deny the need for the locks and swear you'd never get them. If you do you can cause injury and if you don't the technique may not work. Personally I think both are good to have and one can compliment the other. Sometimes you need something beside hitting someone in the face, say a relative or friend. Locks really help here. Also it may help to have an offense if someone is in your house and you need to start the encounter. Aikido is mostly defensive, Karate can be both offensive and defensive. Like the boxer, the one who attacks all the time and the counter puncher. I know of an Aikido Sensei who found a burgular in his house. He faced the robber but did not attack. The robber stunned that he was not attacked, started a fire between the two, and the Aikido Sensei almost died in the fire. Instead of waiting for the robber to attack, he should have seized the moment and attacked the robber. I askled him why he didn't and he said, I wasn't sure what kind of attack to do, I always am defensive, I always counter act or neutralize an attack, I wasn't sure how to handle the situation. A liitle Karate training would have been a big help.[/QUOTE]

Why become violent with someone who is not violent towards you? Even if the Sensei you speak of was attacked by the burglar and he neutralised the attack, there is no certainty that the burglar would not want to retailiate in the future.

Anyone could be a victim at anytime, does that mean if threatened in any way even just verbally should we jump them because at a later date they might try and hurt me again? I think because aikido teaches much more than 'ass kicking' and has a deeper spiritual and philisophical belief (although you don't HAVE to follow that side) we sometimes see things in a different perspective than some other people who practice different MA.

Personally I practice aikido so I can defend myself and help defend others from an attack. I won't and can't use it to attack others as I would question who is the one in the wrong.

Saying Karate training would have been a big help, is useless and not true. Can you say, hand on heart, that you believe if the Sensei had karate training, the burglar would not have started the fire? I don't believe this is the case. Whether I have misinterpreted your comment, I am unsure but that is the way I read it.

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#127899 - 09/24/04 01:51 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
This is exactly the mind set I am talking about. The man is in your house for Christ sakes! He obviously didn't come for dinner. Its this mamby pamby "oh he didn't threaten me" crap that I am talking about. You have made my point. If you won't get aggressive and kick someones ass who has violated the sanctity of your home, and endanger your loved ones, you will never understand, and thats my point, you made it very well for me. One day you will wake up, sadly, its going to take someone hurting you or your loved ones before the message will sink in. Keep on waiting for them to do something, next time it could be an automatic weapon pulled, by the time you wait for his attack and decide he is a threat you will be dead. Great thinking partner!

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#127900 - 09/25/04 07:14 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
swright Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 14
[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
Its also very difficult to set up Aiki techniques when facing a boxer with out tagging his some. [/QUOTE]

Senseilou

Have you taken a look at Yoseikan Budo? Minoru Mochizuki's style does deal with Boxers having learnt in the 50's that Aikido alone was not enough.

S

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#127901 - 09/27/04 02:50 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
next time it could be an automatic weapon pulled, by the time you wait for his attack and decide he is a threat you will be dead. Great thinking partner![/QUOTE]

I think it maybe you who needs to wake up if you think you should attack someone who has an automatic weapon.

I can't comment on where you live but where I am, statistically, the majority of burglars are pure opportunists who, if discovered make a run for it. Therefore their actions were not pre-meditated so the chances of them carrying a weapon is very minimal. Also, unfortunately, the law sometimes sides with the intruder if you cause injury to them but no harm came to you. It's stupid as the intruder chose to trespass but that's the way the current system runs.

Anyway, that's the way I think whereas you're mindset seems to be kick ass at any time where you're being threatened. Personally I believe sometimes that can make things worse. It all depends on the situation you're facing.

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#127902 - 09/27/04 12:09 PM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chanters:
I think it maybe you who needs to wake up if you think you should attack someone who has an automatic weapon.

I dont think id ever go for someone with an automatic weapon, but if faced with a burglar or whatever, i'd have to go with the "grab a heavy object and hit him with it" school of thought (or bokken if you have one handy :-)
Why would you hesitate to let the robber draw a weapon? if hes waving a gun around in the first place fair anough, theres not much you can do, but if you catch the guy in surprise, youd never let him put his hands in his pockets/jacket...him having a weapon in the first place shows his intention to harm!!! id get the first punch in and make it count, lol and the second third and fourth punches in while im there, then run for it!
i dont think its sane to give the thief a chance to decide wether he wants to attack or not, sureley the only way you will find out is if he makes a run for it, or he actually hits you, and by then of cause its all too late... and as for the law, that will be the last thing in your mind when a thug(/thief/rapist?) is in your house threatening your family! and his injuries would be my last concern....hmmm judged by twelve or carried by six?

a freind of mine told me about how he went out to a pub, with a karate guy. they had not been there long befor some moron insisted he get out of his seat. the karateka said he wanted no trouble etc etc but the thug persisted...so the karate guy went into giving him the three warnings nonsense.....im a black belt blah blah *WHACK*, the karateka didnt get to the third warning before the thug wrapped a bar stool around his face...., my point being the rediculous mentality of the karateka giving warnings etc, (not the fact that he is a karateka!) its nice to think you can disable an enemy without hurting him, allow him to go, but there not in your face for a hug..

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#127903 - 09/28/04 02:52 AM Re: Attacks that dont rush in!
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
This goes back to my original point....why would you wait for an intruder in your house to do something. 'Chanters' doesn't see that as a threat only a burgular who will run. I will not stand by and watch an intruder in MY house and wait for him to decide what he is going to do. My point was if you wait THEN you have the gun to deal with. If you are in my house uninvited, you are going to get your ass beat, at the risk of Chanters thinking I am Atilla the Hun. And yes, you threaten me or my family, you are going to get an ass whippin. My family relys on me for many things, and without me, they would have hardships. I owe it to them to takeaway any threat to me or them. Chanters you want to wait around and see what happens from a threat go ahead, but your whollier than thou Aiki attitude may get you killed or seriously hurt. I always try to avoid a confrontation, and I give my attacker every chance to leave, and in some cases I may choose to leave if I don't feel its a serious threat. But if threatened, the attacker is going down BEFORE he decides what else he wnats to do.

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