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#127867 - 08/15/04 01:51 PM It worked so well
Robaikido Offline

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
I was sparring with 1 of my mates the other night, we both used to box, so we werent holding much back. I threw a jab and cross combo to his face, and he put his arms up to block. As he did this, I forgot about boxing and put him in ikkyo, but a very powerful one, not the smooth technique from the dojo. The second time, I performed iriminage ura, which also worked perfectly, much to my freinds distress [IMG][/IMG]

This made me think, instead of an aikidoka waiting for an attack, why not strike first, if you are threatened, I suppose this is what atemi is designed for, not so much injuring an opponent, but giving you a perfect change to do the technique that is most suited to his defense.

#127868 - 08/16/04 02:26 AM Re: It worked so well
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I hate bringing this up, because it usually winds up that I am slamming Aikido, though its not meant that way. If you are in a confrontation, the person is not going to let you throw him,or just stand there and let you lock him. You have to work with a 'live' attack as that is what you are going to find in a real confrontation. The best way to get what you want is to soften the attacker up. Atemi waza is the best way to do this. Look at a beginner who has just joined the dojo. When they don't know how to fall, they resist falling, also they are naturally fighting gravity. This is going to be a similar reaction in a confrontation,do you think your attacker is going to do a beautiful break fall for you? Hardly? They will more than likely react just the beginner in the dojo. How many times have you had a beginner resist(unknowingly)or try to get away from your locks. This, more than likely will happen in a confrontation also. The reaction of a beginner is more or less the reaction on the street.So one, in order to get what they want, need to set things up by striking. I have had students from other arts who have joined my school and usually resist something they haven't seen before. Try striking these people, and when they are worried about the strikes, they are susceptible to your locks. I took the time to learn how to strike and strike hard. After all these years, I have learned to develope power in my strikes. My students hate when it comes time to train with me as they said it feels like there being hit by a tank. They don't have time to think about the lock, the are more concerned about blocking the strike. Also when you use your atemi, you expose your attackers opposite side,and can take your locks on either side. In order to practice 'live' one really needs to incorporate striking in their locking art.

#127869 - 08/16/04 05:32 AM Re: It worked so well

Interesting experience.

The use of atemi in your dojo will obviously depend on the instructor. In saying that I think most will use quite vigourous atemi against attacks such as kata-dori, also I tend to create situations such as morote-dori by attacking uke so they have to grab the wrist.

Question that needs to answered though are you training for self-defence or to develop your art? Neither would preclude the use of atemi but the latter while often appear rather "soft " and unrealistic to some observers.

P.S. One of the most martial instructors I know doesn't use any atemi in normal practise.

#127870 - 08/16/04 06:47 AM Re: It worked so well
Robaikido Offline

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
So you would say boxing and aikido compliment each other? And also that they would be a good pair to train in?

#127871 - 08/16/04 03:10 PM Re: It worked so well
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Once again it depends on what you are trying to accomplish. It was mentioned that if you are trying to develope your art you don't need atemi waza. It depends on HOW you want to develope it. Atemi waza is in Aikido, O'Sensei in his early years used much atemi, only in his later years did he cut down on the atemi waza but still employed it. If you look at a governing principle of Aikido-Kuzushi, atemi waza is a great Kazushi, especially if you know the arts of folding. So in developing your art, doesn't mean you have to practice it as your Sensei gives it to you, rather you can choose to train how you see fit. If you look at O'Sensei he had 2 distict styles of Aikido, one pre-war, the other post-war. I chose pre-war, and my Aikido is done more in that fashion, not the post war version. So it depends on what you want as to how you should train.

As for boxing, its great to learn so you can learn to strike, Karate does it as well, though Karate training add many more different strikes, ridge hands, back fists, elbows kicks etc that boxing doesn't employ. Having said that, you must realize that Aikido is very circular, and your boxing skills are basically linear, so you have a big transition between your boxing entry and your Aikido entry. For me thats a non-issue as I do more Jujutsu than Aikido and my movements are much less circular. However, when you look at entering(Irimi), boxing entering and Aikido entering are not on the same page. Not saying you can't make it work, but there is a gap in transition. One could practice circulat boxing movements I guess, but other than jabs I wonder how it would work. Another art, Kosho Ryu Kempo employs alot of flowing circular striking and would fit well with Aikido, but I wonder , with the tenents of Aikido how well an art that is 100% striking will fit into an Aikido format. I am sure a good boxer could adapt to Aikido, but am not sure vice versa. But you can sure try if that is what you want.

#127872 - 08/22/04 09:23 PM Re: It worked so well
Telepath Offline

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 176
Loc: miami, Florida
This is why i blend arts. I have found that in order to make these locks, throws or whatever work on a opponent that will fight gravity you have to take their mind off what your doing. A quick palm strike breaking the nose will take his mind off of everything else for a second and thats all the time ou need to get him off balance or put on your lock. All of these moves, Iriminage, Kotegaeshi, Sankyo, they all work very well in the street. All you need it to be proficent at them and be able to distract the aggressor for a split second or two

#127873 - 08/23/04 02:59 AM Re: It worked so well
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Telepath..................I totally agree. We have some catchy phrases or principles for this.

1. change the attackers priorities-in other words make him think about something else. We also divide the body in quadrants, and then usually go for opposite quadrants than you want to work on.
2. You got to shock'em to lock'em. We also use palms, especially a 'crossing' palm, like a boxing cross only with a palm, with the follow though, you can move on to your locks, and will put your hands in better position.


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