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#127746 - 11/04/07 01:43 PM Re: Aikido vs AikiJutsu [Re: fileboy2002]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

News flash: the school matters--A LOT. If I want to learn practical self-defense, I am going to look into schools where they regularly train against actively resisitng opponents under realistic conditions.




Fixed that for you, bro.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#127747 - 11/04/07 06:03 PM Re: Aikido vs AikiJutsu [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

TKD is an incomplete art.


Is it? Or did you just not learn the complete art? Or did you have a teacher that did not learn the complete art either?

Old style TKD (before it was reduced to a sport) isn't the same thing as its modern incarnation. For starters, the number of hand movements in the old hyungs far outnumbered kicks. And the kicks were never above waist level. I have an 1960 Edition of Choi Hong Hi's Complete TKD... in it there are seated (kneeling) techniques, grappling, weapon techs, SD techniques and pressure points... including the older Shotokan kata.

It's not the art's fault... it's what ignorance did to the art.

Still, I learned some important basic stuff like footwork, "block", punch/strike, and kick in TKD... but I left too because I saw the art for more than what it was. I just wasn't getting it from my instructor.

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#127748 - 11/04/07 07:13 PM Re: Aikido vs AikiJutsu [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
What I studied WAS "old style" ITF TKD--under han Cha Kyo, one of the art's founders. We had no torunament focus whatsoever. And it was still incomplete.

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#127749 - 11/04/07 08:14 PM Re: Aikido vs AikiJutsu [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Despite that, I still don't think the art itself is incomplete. Teachers can only convey a fraction of their knowledge. Hopefully, this will contain the basic foundational elements on which the art is based - philosophically, strategically and tactically.

I still believe it is up to the person to make it their art, and to attain the highest level that the art can offer. That's why it's called "art". Skill and mastery of one's craft is art.

I can see why you think it is incomplete from some perspective, but I would say that it is your knowledge that is incomplete. And yes, perhaps sometimes you need to go outside your art, and experience a different training paradigm in order to see what you are missing in your training. Rather than what is missing from the art.

I remember asking my teacher once, about something that was seemingly "missing" from our practice, and his response was "well, obviously... one must adapt to suit the situation"....

Still, it didn't take me 25 years to work out I needed to move on

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#127750 - 11/05/07 11:21 AM Re: Aikido vs AikiJutsu [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Didn't take me 25 years either, thank goodness.

Let me define what I mean by "incomplete." No art can possibly include techniques or tactics to cover every concievable situation. Instead, different MA emphasize different aspects of self-defense. Boxing focuses on hand techniques, taekwondo on kicking, judo on wrestling, etc. Yes, they may make some attempt to cover everything, every art has a clear emphasis.

The problem I ultimately had with TKD was that it emphasized kicking--one of the least important aspects of self defense. Of course good kicking skills are great to have. But it is far more important to know how to box or wrestle.

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#127751 - 11/05/07 03:30 PM Re: Aikido vs AikiJutsu [Re: fileboy2002]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA

File

"its far more important to know how to box or wrestle"

In your opinion.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#127752 - 11/05/07 04:24 PM Re: Aikido vs AikiJutsu [Re: cxt]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I believe in aplication there are boh the same only priciple are they separate. Some Aikido purest say they don't use strikes, whereas Aiki-Jujitsu readily apply them boh arts in application have no limits and are very old world Jujitsu like in brutallity and finality.

No doubt boxing and wrestling would help but these are control and knock down skills. The other two in application are vicious fighting arts.


Edited by Neko456 (11/05/07 04:35 PM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#127753 - 11/05/07 06:50 PM Re: Aikido vs AikiJutsu [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

... No art can possibly include techniques or tactics to cover every concievable situation. Instead, different MA emphasize different aspects of self-defense.... they may make some attempt to cover everything, every art has a clear emphasis.


I think you've hit the nail on the head... every art has a clear emphasis on an area of specialization that supposedly gives them a strategic and/or tactical advantage.

Quote:

The problem I ultimately had with TKD was that it emphasized kicking--one of the least important aspects of self defense. Of course good kicking skills are great to have. But it is far more important to know how to box or wrestle.


And the sole advantage of kicking is... range. The entire philosophy of TKD is based on the idea that kicking techniques give you a longer reach, and the ability to maintain combat distance. I still think its a case of not knowing what the art is designed for and the entire rationale of the art. That, and whether the art is suited for your body type and personal philosophy.

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#127754 - 11/05/07 07:41 PM Re: Aikido vs AikiJutsu [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Eyrie,

I believe we are getting close to the same page here.

Taekwondo's emphasis on kicking is indeed premised on the idea of staying out of your opponent's range--and of course I know that .

However, there are, in my opinion, several problems with that strategy:

1) Many, if not most, fights erupt at close to @#$% close range to begin with.

2) Unless you strike with near-perfect timing and precision, your opponent will almost certainly close the range between you. While we all strive for perfection, we should not bet our lives on achieving it.

3) Wearing ordinary pants limits the legs' range of motion, limiting TKD fighters' use of their strongest weapon. I am actually surprised at how rarely this comes up on the board .

Just for the record, I have met some people for whom these problems matter not one bit. Some TKD fighters are just so wicked fast and accurate they would never need to do anything but kick. However, they are few and far between, and I ain't one of 'em .

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#127755 - 11/05/07 07:56 PM Re: Aikido vs AikiJutsu [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I feel ya bro...

And I agree with everything you've said... however, every strategy or tactic can be countered - provided one is able to seize the opportunity at the right time.

I can't remember if it was Rick Clark or Pat McCarthy who once told me - it's all about mastering your space and controlling the other person's space.

BTW, I've seen George Chung kick in jeans.... OK, granted his jeans had a diamond-shaped crutch piece to facilitate his signature high kick.... still impressive nonetheless.

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