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#127467 - 04/06/04 04:03 AM Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
swright Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 14
Hi

I am researching the origin of sutemiwaza techniques in Aikido.

The only style I find that uses these is Yoseikan.

What other Aikido styles have these?

Why or where did Yoseikan develop them from?

Do they exist in Jujutsu styles?

Thanks
S

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#127468 - 04/06/04 06:00 AM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
dazzler2 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 148
Loc: england
Hi

My background is traditional. I am with National Aikido Federation in UK.

We dont include them in syllabus.

I have practice jujitsu for a number of years and used them extensively - as a result I will add them into aikido class from time to time to spice things up a bit.

Good luck with your research.

D

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#127469 - 04/06/04 09:57 AM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
Interesting...

I practice aikijujitsu. We do lots of sacrifice throws. I was not aware that aikido did them.

My instructor's original background was in judo-- I think many of the sacrifices we do come from there.

It seems that sacrifice throws would be a bit at odds with the idea in aikido of always maintaining correct posture and balance. I don't know of any aikido techniques where one compromises his own balance in order to get more leverage. Interesting thought, though...

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#127470 - 04/06/04 10:02 AM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
Anonymous
Unregistered


Both Jujitsu and it's cousin Judo contain sacrifice throws.
Sharon

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#127471 - 04/06/04 01:40 PM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Funny thing is my first introduction to a sutemi waza was from Hayashi Shihan from Shito Ryu karate. He did however have a Judo background. Shogo Kuniba Shihan also incorporated sutemi waza in his Shito Curriculum. The sutemi waza I learned in Aiki arts differ from the ones I learned in Jujutsu. Most sutemi waza I learned in Aiki arts let the person go much like a throw, the sutemi waza I learned in my Jujutsu arts does not let the person go as you continue the roll with the uke and end up in a mount position(several different positions)and finish with chokes or arm bars. This is the biggest differences that I have seen. Aiki arts do them like throws, Jujutsu arts more of a takedown. Both Hayashi and Kuniba Sensei both continued the roll and ended with a choke or neck break.

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#127472 - 04/06/04 01:52 PM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
P.S. The origin of the sutemi waza I was told was that a foot soldier used sutemi waza to get a soldier off a horse. It was explained to me that the foot soldier would use the horse as a base and leap with their legs unto the mounted soldier and fall to the ground either throwing him or falling with him to the ground. It sounded a bit far feteched till I saw a Danzan Ryu Jujutsu technique where the person steps on the attackers thigh to get their legs around the attackers neck, then fall to the ground and throw or takedown the opponent. One of my Sensei said any technique that 'sacraficed the body' was a sacrafice technique. So according to him if a person absorbs a strike to get to something else, this is sutemi waza also. To back this up, I have seen technique where a samurai would allow a staff to hit his armour, catch the staff and break the staff as well. According to this one Sensei, this is sutemi waza as well.

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#127473 - 04/07/04 04:23 AM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
swright Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 14
[QUOTE]Originally posted by the504mikey:
Interesting...

I practice aikijujitsu. We do lots of sacrifice throws. I was not aware that aikido did them.

My instructor's original background was in judo-- I think many of the sacrifices we do come from there.

It seems that sacrifice throws would be a bit at odds with the idea in aikido of always maintaining correct posture and balance. I don't know of any aikido techniques where one compromises his own balance in order to get more leverage. Interesting thought, though...

[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your post.

Minoru Mochizuki (10th Dan Aikido - yes 10!) developed Yoseikan. Mochizuki had the good fortune of studying directly under Jigoro Kano, founder of judo, 10th dan judo great Kyuzo Mifune, and Morihei Ueshiba back in the 1930s - before "Aikido" was coined.

I beleive it was his Gyokushin-ryu jujutsu training to be the basis of where Yoseikan sutemiwaza came from.

A comment on "odds with the idea in aikido of always maintaining correct posture and balance.". Sutemiwaza is considered by some to be top-of-the-shelf stuff seamlessly combining the sacrifice techniques of Gyokushin-ryu jujutsu with aikido taisabaki into one.

Now where or not Yoseikan Aikido is actually Aikido as opposed to Budo is another topic.

Thanks
S

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#127474 - 04/07/04 11:44 AM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
[QUOTE]
Minoru Mochizuki (10th Dan Aikido - yes 10!) developed Yoseikan.
[/QUOTE]

My instructor trained some with Mochizuki as well, not sure if that is the source of his approach to sutemi waza though. I know Mochizuki had a profound effect on his judo and joint locking.

Mochizuki is (he's still with us, I hope)an amazing man.

Much of our sutemi waza comes from a judo/jujitsu man here in the United States named Harold Brosius. In seminars he has taught at our dojo there is a lot of overlap between his stuff and ours, but he definitely has a lot to teach us-- we have him over twice a year.

Harold is one of the early tough judo guys here in the US who went on to found Ketsugo Jujitsu.

Sharon said:
[QUOTE]
Both Jujitsu and its cousin Judo contain sacrifice throws.
[/QUOTE]

Absolutely right, although the jujitsu varieties I have seen are much more destructive (face smashes and neck breaks rather than clean falls or rolls). I guess this makes sense when you look at judo as a "friendlier" subset of the jujitsu from which it is derived.

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#127475 - 04/07/04 12:31 PM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
swright said:
[QUOTE]
A comment on "odds with the idea in aikido of always maintaining correct posture and balance.". Sutemiwaza is considered by some to be top-of-the-shelf stuff seamlessly combining the sacrifice techniques of Gyokushin-ryu jujutsu with aikido taisabaki into one.
[/QUOTE]

I am inclined to believe in the idea that sutemi waza are indeed "good and proper" aiki techniques-- we practice them a lot, and I find them to be quite workable.

The correct posture comment was an attempt to distinguish between aikido and aiki(ju)jutsu. I think aikido went on to become something different from the aikijutsu it was developed from in some significant ways, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around what those ways are.

One thing I have siezed on (possibly incorrectly) is this notion of not compromising one's posture. I think it springs from the same place as some of the no kicking, no leg locking techniques notions come from. It seems like aikido at its highest attempts to go beyond mere "self defense" and into trying to manifest the divine-- so we don't lay down, and we don't touch people's feet. Now, this is my personal take on it and I'll admit it may be pretty far out there, but back when I was doing aikido I would run across these sensei who were as much "holy man, philosopher" as they were martial artist. I think they would claim that the real ultimate goal in in aikido is to learn about the universe and correct behaviour through its practice. I know I'm painting aikido with way too broad a brush here as there are many styles out there and the term is heavily loaded these days.

In contrast, I think most of the aikijujitsu practitioners in the world stay focused primarily on the combat specific aspects of it. If I recall correctly, Mochizuki did not initially call his art "aikido" but "budo". Unfortunately budo is another term which has come to mean many different things to different people. Still, I think Ueshiba's aikido carries with it a lot of philosophical implications that aikijujutsu does not, at least not at the simplistic crude level at which I study it.

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#127476 - 06/09/04 07:38 AM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
mateo Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 63
Loc: Toronto
I had the good fortune to spend a couple of months at the Yoseikan hombu in Shizuoka in 1991. Mochizuki-sensei was already not so active at that time but oversaw classes and his seniors were there. Their sutemi waza were quite formidable.

I thought the sutemi-waza was one of the most interesting parts of the curriculum.
It seems that Gyokushin-ryu was the primary source of these waza and Mochizuki speaks to this in an interesting interview which can be found at the Aikido Journal website on-line.

It is also probably worth noting that one of Mochizuki-sensei's primary teachers was Mifune Kyuzo who was also very fond of the sutemi-waza.

I think if you look at aikido as static curriculum of techniques ( and I think few do )then you could dismiss sutemi waza as not having a place in modern aikido practise. If however you look as admissible to aikido any technique which conforms to the concept of 'aiki' and coordinates with one's opponent's force, timing and intention then sutemi-waza would be a splendid example of this.

Mochizuki referred to his art as Aikibudo as that was the term Ueshiba was using at that time and was written on his menkyo. I believe Shioda's is similarly marked.

Mochizuki's art was also a composite art employing techniques of judo, karate and Katori shinto-ryu so 'budo' was also would have been a better 'catch-all' term, I'm sure.

If I'm not mistaken Ueshiba Morihei spontaneously performs one sutemi-waza technique in the 'AikiBudo' pre-war film footage, but I'd have to check that.

I think part of the reason sutemi-waza is so interesting as they are a form of pure throwing where one must fully commit ( physically and with intention ) and throw oneself in order to throw one's opponent. If one doesn't apply the rules of timing and coordinating of one's movement with one's opponent's they often don't come off as one would like!

[This message has been edited by mateo (edited 06-09-2004).]

[This message has been edited by mateo (edited 06-13-2004).]

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#127477 - 08/17/04 09:47 AM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am VERY glad to see that there are many people on here that "get it right" when talking about Minoru Mochizuki and Yoseikan in general. The talks about how he blended Sutemi into Yoseikan is right on the money.

Minoru passed away last year (I think someone asked if he was still with us). However, his son Hiroo has continued to keep sutemi in the Yoseikan program.

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#127478 - 10/25/04 11:20 PM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
mateo Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 63
Loc: Toronto
Patrick Auge would be another source of information on Mochizuki's sutemi waza in North America. Formerly based in Ottawa I believe he is in California now.

Does anyone know Michael Fore or David Orange with whom I trained briefly at the Yoseikan Hombu in Shizuoka? They were both from Alabama. I imagine that they probably run training there as well.

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#127479 - 10/26/04 07:52 AM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sutemiwaza are used in Aikido but not very often. Tend to be used in high ranking Yudansha classes as "fun" practise.

Chiba & Kanai Senseis use to show them now and then as light relief but I have also practised them with other Aikikai Hombu Shihan.

Problem with them is that they need to be spontaneous BUT with perfect timing to be fully effective. That's why they're not taught as aprt of the syllabus.

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#127480 - 04/01/05 11:30 AM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by mateo:
Does anyone know Michael Fore or David Orange with whom I trained briefly at the Yoseikan Hombu in Shizuoka? They were both from Alabama. I imagine that they probably run training there as well.[/QUOTE]

Matt, this is David. I'm a little surprised that you remembered me. I posted a reply to you in the daito ryu area, on the aikibudo board. Good to see that you're still around.

And you are very correct about Mochizuki Sensei's sutemi-waza being rooted in gyokushin-ryu jujutsu, which is a very neat story. He told me that he was training at the kodokan, about age 18, when he met the master of gyokushin-ryu, a Shinto priest who was something like 34th successor to gyokushin-ryu. Sensei said that he got one scroll from that teacher, equivalent to 1st or 2nd degree, but that he left after that and did not learn the sutemi waza that were prevalent in the higher levels. He said the training was all kata and very boring but that the master would lure him in with the cakes that had been offered to the gods at his shinto shrine. And sensei would eat these cakes and drink tea while the old man talked about gyokushin ryu and taught him the poem of the ryu, which explained all the techniques. Then Mochizuki sensei would run away (get out of there as fast as he could). He was very young. The old master tried to get him to go on with gyokushin-ryu by telling him that, beyond the level he had reached, the system had lots of sutemi waza. But Mochizuki sensei was very busy with judo at that time. He was a student at the kodokan and had already been uchi-deshi to Kyuzo Mifune. He knew many sutemi waza through that training, so he wasn't that interested in learning the gyokushin sutemi and he faded out of gyokushin without really learning the sutemi waza.

After that, Kano sensei sent him to train with Ueshiba Morihei. He recognized many of the aikijujutsu techniques from gyokushin ryu. He said that Ueshiba sensei called him a genius because he was able to learn the techniques so fast, but in fact, he had already learned them in gyokushin ryu.

After WWII, teaching aikido, kenjutsu and judo in France, he fought with lots of local people, facing boxers, fencers, savate artists and professional wrestlers. He was very impressed by the wrestlers, who used lots of sacrifice-type techniques, and he thought these were perfect expressions of Kano Jigoro's principle of "maximum efficient use of energy".

He then remembered the old gyokushin master who had wanted to give him all the gyokushin sutemi waza almot thirty years earlier and he felt guilty because now the old man was dead and no one had inherited the system from him. He once got out a huge book (one of about thirty volumes in a set--a complete listing of every Japanese ryu and all the headmasters who had ever taught them). He showed me in the book that the gyokushin ryu had never been inherited. The master had died without leaving a successor. So he felt that he, himself, was the only one left to carry on the system.

Over about the next twenty years, he worked to "recreate" the gyokushin-ryu and rather completed this in the early 1970s, using Patrick Auge (the only non-Japanese who received menkyo-kaiden from Mochizuki sensei), Washizu (Hiromi?), Tezuka Akira and Kenmotsu shihan as his main guinea pigs. He would think up a technique and call these guys in and have them work it in every conceivable angle to find its strenghts and weaknesses and, after some months of such research, he would add it to his official yoseikan curriculum.

When I was there in the first half of the 1990s, he developed his last kata (to my knowledge)--sutemi waza no kata, showing ten pretty unusual sutemi waza, including kotegaeshi sutemi, which should sound scary to anyone who hears of it because it is.

He told me around that time that he considered his sutemi curriculum to be "yoseikan ryu gyokushin jujutsu."

So he didn't really "learn" the sutemi from gyokushin, but took the poem he had learned and studied it deeply and recreated the techniques as well as he could from that and his experience in judo, jujutsu and aikido.

Now a few words about these techniques. I consider them pure aikido for several reasons. First, you don't really sacrifice your posture. You learn to maintain it whether you are standing up or upside down, on your side, back or face. "Gyokushin" means "spherical spirit" and it allows one to work no matter which way is up.

Second, all these sutemi work from aiki entry. As you said, this is "technique which conforms to the concept of 'aiki' and coordinates with one's opponent's force, timing and intention". Done properly, they cannot be resisted and they do perfectly illustrate "seiryoku zenyo".

The post directly after yours, by philipsmith, says "Problem with them is that they need to be spontaneous BUT with perfect timing to be fully effective. That's why they're not taught as aprt of the syllabus."

But that's why Mochizuki did include them. He showed me the dictionary definition of "sutemi" once, and it said "To run the risk of one's life." And that really means what it says.

Budo IS complete commitment and absolutely efficient use of energy. Sutemi waza is where this must be real.

Anyway, Matt, thanks for your comments and bringing up some interesting memories.

As for me, I do still teach sensei's way, but not under an organization, and I don't give ranks. And for that reason, I don't have many students. I think back on Mochizuki sensei and his wife every day, both with happiness and sadness. People like that won't come this way again.

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#127481 - 04/01/05 11:46 AM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by swright:
Now where or not Yoseikan Aikido is actually Aikido as opposed to Budo is another topic.[/QUOTE]

Aikido is budo. And Mochizuki sensei's aikido was very pure and strong. His menkyo-kaiden from Morihei Ueshiba was in "daito ryu aikijujutsu." He was with Ueshiba sensei through the aikibudo period, and also in the aikido period. They had a long, deep friendship as well as a student-teacher relationship. Ueshiba sensei used to stay with Mochizuki sensei on his way back to Tokyo from Osaka. After the war, he sent Kisshomaru (the late doshu) to stay with Mochizuki sensei and his wife for some time. They said that Kisshomaru arrived with a large woven-bamboo basket on his back, full of food that O'Sensei had sent.

Sensei called his overall system "yoseikan budo" but he also retained aikido-bu, judo-bu, kenjutsu-bu, jujutsu-bu, etc, within the system and he taught the classes separately--for the most part.

In fact, the term "yoseikan budo" was created by Mochizuki sensei's son, Hiroo.

Minoru Mochizuki liked the term and took it up for himself, but the two arts are very different in feeling. Hiroo Sensei's art is deeply influenced by wado-ryu karate-do, while his father's art is more gyokushin/aikijujutsu-centered. The father's art was deeply traditional Japanese, but Hiroo sensei's art seems more "international" and sport oriented.

The father's style is seldom seen anymore. Hiroo sensei is the headmaster and, of course, he teaches his own way. I believe Patrick Auge, who did receive menkyo-kaiden from Mochizuki Minoru, teaches Minoru sensei's art in California. And I think some of the Japanese shihan also keep it alive in the old hombu in Shizuoka.

One thing for sure: Hiroo Mochizuki is an impeccable martial artist who, like his father, looks many years younger than his true age. I think Hiroo sensei has also avoided some of the injuries that his father suffered over the decades, largely because Minoru sensei trained him very carefully.

Hiroo sensei has a superb way of moving and doing techniques. He's very creative and a spectacular teacher.

However, if you want to learn from someone like this, GO WHERE THEY ARE and LEARN DIRECTLY FROM THEM. That's the most important thing I can tell anyone concerning budo and aikido.


[This message has been edited by aikikiai (edited 04-01-2005).]

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#127482 - 04/01/05 04:37 PM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
swright Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 14
aikikiai

Thank you for your posts, they have been an excellent source of information and corrections to what I assumed I knew.

For your inormation, the school I have been with for 10 years now here in Australia is old-school Yoseikan and I also notice the differences/influences in style between father and son.

Steve.

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#127483 - 04/04/05 10:49 AM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by swright:
aikikiai

Thank you for your posts, they have been an excellent source of information and corrections to what I assumed I knew.

For your inormation, the school I have been with for 10 years now here in Australia is old-school Yoseikan and I also notice the differences/influences in style between father and son.

Steve.

[/QUOTE]

I know a couple of the Australian senseis (sensei-tachi, if you read my post on "the plural of sensei"). Branko Bratich and the Japanese teacher whose name escapes me at the moment. Seems like they were both based in Perth.

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#127484 - 04/05/05 04:59 PM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by swright:
the school I have been with for 10 years now here in Australia is old-school Yoseikan and I also notice the differences/influences in style between father and son. [/QUOTE]

The Japanese teacher I knew who was living in Australia was Unno sensei. He was teaching both aikido and karate. Branko was mainly karate as I recall.

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#127485 - 04/05/05 05:19 PM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
swright Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 14
[QUOTE]Originally posted by aikikiai:
The Japanese teacher I knew who was living in Australia was Unno sensei. He was teaching both aikido and karate. Branko was mainly karate as I recall.

[/QUOTE]

You are correct on both counts, however I have been learning Yoseikan Aikido under Sihan Jan De Jong, he studied directly with Mochizuki back in the late 60's and was responsible for bring Unno sensei to Perth. After a brief period with Jan De Jong, Unno opened up a dojo for himself.

Just a bit of triva, feel free to email me direct at steve@globesoftware.com.au as we're getting off my original question re: sutemiwaza. Thanks for your posts.

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#127486 - 04/08/05 04:38 PM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
mateo Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 63
Loc: Toronto
[QUOTE]Originally posted by aikikiai:

And you are very correct about Mochizuki Sensei's sutemi-waza being rooted in gyokushin-ryu jujutsu,etc which is a very neat story. etc.
[/QUOTE]

You see how much more interesting responses are when they come from people who know first hand of what they speak! Great story.

It's great to hear from you, David. Hope to hear more.

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#127487 - 04/14/05 10:21 AM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by philipsmith:
Problem with them is that they need to be spontaneous BUT with perfect timing to be fully effective. That's why they're not taught as aprt of the syllabus. [/QUOTE]

Probably the bigger reason is that the ukemi has to be spontaneous, yet perfectly timed and executed to avoid piledriving your head into the mat. It's not something you can do without excellent ukemi.

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