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#127467 - 04/06/04 04:03 AM Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
swright Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 14
Hi

I am researching the origin of sutemiwaza techniques in Aikido.

The only style I find that uses these is Yoseikan.

What other Aikido styles have these?

Why or where did Yoseikan develop them from?

Do they exist in Jujutsu styles?

Thanks
S

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#127468 - 04/06/04 06:00 AM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
dazzler2 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 148
Loc: england
Hi

My background is traditional. I am with National Aikido Federation in UK.

We dont include them in syllabus.

I have practice jujitsu for a number of years and used them extensively - as a result I will add them into aikido class from time to time to spice things up a bit.

Good luck with your research.

D

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#127469 - 04/06/04 09:57 AM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
Interesting...

I practice aikijujitsu. We do lots of sacrifice throws. I was not aware that aikido did them.

My instructor's original background was in judo-- I think many of the sacrifices we do come from there.

It seems that sacrifice throws would be a bit at odds with the idea in aikido of always maintaining correct posture and balance. I don't know of any aikido techniques where one compromises his own balance in order to get more leverage. Interesting thought, though...

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#127470 - 04/06/04 10:02 AM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
Anonymous
Unregistered


Both Jujitsu and it's cousin Judo contain sacrifice throws.
Sharon

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#127471 - 04/06/04 01:40 PM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Funny thing is my first introduction to a sutemi waza was from Hayashi Shihan from Shito Ryu karate. He did however have a Judo background. Shogo Kuniba Shihan also incorporated sutemi waza in his Shito Curriculum. The sutemi waza I learned in Aiki arts differ from the ones I learned in Jujutsu. Most sutemi waza I learned in Aiki arts let the person go much like a throw, the sutemi waza I learned in my Jujutsu arts does not let the person go as you continue the roll with the uke and end up in a mount position(several different positions)and finish with chokes or arm bars. This is the biggest differences that I have seen. Aiki arts do them like throws, Jujutsu arts more of a takedown. Both Hayashi and Kuniba Sensei both continued the roll and ended with a choke or neck break.

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#127472 - 04/06/04 01:52 PM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
P.S. The origin of the sutemi waza I was told was that a foot soldier used sutemi waza to get a soldier off a horse. It was explained to me that the foot soldier would use the horse as a base and leap with their legs unto the mounted soldier and fall to the ground either throwing him or falling with him to the ground. It sounded a bit far feteched till I saw a Danzan Ryu Jujutsu technique where the person steps on the attackers thigh to get their legs around the attackers neck, then fall to the ground and throw or takedown the opponent. One of my Sensei said any technique that 'sacraficed the body' was a sacrafice technique. So according to him if a person absorbs a strike to get to something else, this is sutemi waza also. To back this up, I have seen technique where a samurai would allow a staff to hit his armour, catch the staff and break the staff as well. According to this one Sensei, this is sutemi waza as well.

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#127473 - 04/07/04 04:23 AM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
swright Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 14
[QUOTE]Originally posted by the504mikey:
Interesting...

I practice aikijujitsu. We do lots of sacrifice throws. I was not aware that aikido did them.

My instructor's original background was in judo-- I think many of the sacrifices we do come from there.

It seems that sacrifice throws would be a bit at odds with the idea in aikido of always maintaining correct posture and balance. I don't know of any aikido techniques where one compromises his own balance in order to get more leverage. Interesting thought, though...

[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your post.

Minoru Mochizuki (10th Dan Aikido - yes 10!) developed Yoseikan. Mochizuki had the good fortune of studying directly under Jigoro Kano, founder of judo, 10th dan judo great Kyuzo Mifune, and Morihei Ueshiba back in the 1930s - before "Aikido" was coined.

I beleive it was his Gyokushin-ryu jujutsu training to be the basis of where Yoseikan sutemiwaza came from.

A comment on "odds with the idea in aikido of always maintaining correct posture and balance.". Sutemiwaza is considered by some to be top-of-the-shelf stuff seamlessly combining the sacrifice techniques of Gyokushin-ryu jujutsu with aikido taisabaki into one.

Now where or not Yoseikan Aikido is actually Aikido as opposed to Budo is another topic.

Thanks
S

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#127474 - 04/07/04 11:44 AM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
[QUOTE]
Minoru Mochizuki (10th Dan Aikido - yes 10!) developed Yoseikan.
[/QUOTE]

My instructor trained some with Mochizuki as well, not sure if that is the source of his approach to sutemi waza though. I know Mochizuki had a profound effect on his judo and joint locking.

Mochizuki is (he's still with us, I hope)an amazing man.

Much of our sutemi waza comes from a judo/jujitsu man here in the United States named Harold Brosius. In seminars he has taught at our dojo there is a lot of overlap between his stuff and ours, but he definitely has a lot to teach us-- we have him over twice a year.

Harold is one of the early tough judo guys here in the US who went on to found Ketsugo Jujitsu.

Sharon said:
[QUOTE]
Both Jujitsu and its cousin Judo contain sacrifice throws.
[/QUOTE]

Absolutely right, although the jujitsu varieties I have seen are much more destructive (face smashes and neck breaks rather than clean falls or rolls). I guess this makes sense when you look at judo as a "friendlier" subset of the jujitsu from which it is derived.

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#127475 - 04/07/04 12:31 PM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
swright said:
[QUOTE]
A comment on "odds with the idea in aikido of always maintaining correct posture and balance.". Sutemiwaza is considered by some to be top-of-the-shelf stuff seamlessly combining the sacrifice techniques of Gyokushin-ryu jujutsu with aikido taisabaki into one.
[/QUOTE]

I am inclined to believe in the idea that sutemi waza are indeed "good and proper" aiki techniques-- we practice them a lot, and I find them to be quite workable.

The correct posture comment was an attempt to distinguish between aikido and aiki(ju)jutsu. I think aikido went on to become something different from the aikijutsu it was developed from in some significant ways, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around what those ways are.

One thing I have siezed on (possibly incorrectly) is this notion of not compromising one's posture. I think it springs from the same place as some of the no kicking, no leg locking techniques notions come from. It seems like aikido at its highest attempts to go beyond mere "self defense" and into trying to manifest the divine-- so we don't lay down, and we don't touch people's feet. Now, this is my personal take on it and I'll admit it may be pretty far out there, but back when I was doing aikido I would run across these sensei who were as much "holy man, philosopher" as they were martial artist. I think they would claim that the real ultimate goal in in aikido is to learn about the universe and correct behaviour through its practice. I know I'm painting aikido with way too broad a brush here as there are many styles out there and the term is heavily loaded these days.

In contrast, I think most of the aikijujitsu practitioners in the world stay focused primarily on the combat specific aspects of it. If I recall correctly, Mochizuki did not initially call his art "aikido" but "budo". Unfortunately budo is another term which has come to mean many different things to different people. Still, I think Ueshiba's aikido carries with it a lot of philosophical implications that aikijujutsu does not, at least not at the simplistic crude level at which I study it.

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#127476 - 06/09/04 07:38 AM Re: Yoseikan Sutemiwaza (sacrifice techniques)
mateo Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 63
Loc: Toronto
I had the good fortune to spend a couple of months at the Yoseikan hombu in Shizuoka in 1991. Mochizuki-sensei was already not so active at that time but oversaw classes and his seniors were there. Their sutemi waza were quite formidable.

I thought the sutemi-waza was one of the most interesting parts of the curriculum.
It seems that Gyokushin-ryu was the primary source of these waza and Mochizuki speaks to this in an interesting interview which can be found at the Aikido Journal website on-line.

It is also probably worth noting that one of Mochizuki-sensei's primary teachers was Mifune Kyuzo who was also very fond of the sutemi-waza.

I think if you look at aikido as static curriculum of techniques ( and I think few do )then you could dismiss sutemi waza as not having a place in modern aikido practise. If however you look as admissible to aikido any technique which conforms to the concept of 'aiki' and coordinates with one's opponent's force, timing and intention then sutemi-waza would be a splendid example of this.

Mochizuki referred to his art as Aikibudo as that was the term Ueshiba was using at that time and was written on his menkyo. I believe Shioda's is similarly marked.

Mochizuki's art was also a composite art employing techniques of judo, karate and Katori shinto-ryu so 'budo' was also would have been a better 'catch-all' term, I'm sure.

If I'm not mistaken Ueshiba Morihei spontaneously performs one sutemi-waza technique in the 'AikiBudo' pre-war film footage, but I'd have to check that.

I think part of the reason sutemi-waza is so interesting as they are a form of pure throwing where one must fully commit ( physically and with intention ) and throw oneself in order to throw one's opponent. If one doesn't apply the rules of timing and coordinating of one's movement with one's opponent's they often don't come off as one would like!

[This message has been edited by mateo (edited 06-09-2004).]

[This message has been edited by mateo (edited 06-13-2004).]

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