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#127352 - 02/09/04 10:48 AM Sparring with other MA's
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
Hello everyone.

This is for all you aikidoka out there. Do you ever spar with people from other martial arts? Have you found sparring to be beneficial or detrimental to your training?

I have a few friends in martial arts, and I used to play around with them a bit. But over the weekend, a friend of mine who studies JKD, Wing Chun, and Hsing I sort of started slappin' around at me, playfully of course, trying to get me to square off with him. Well, we had drank a few beers so I took the bait. He got a few light touches on me, and was telling me how open I was, then through another punch that I (surprisingly) blended with and set up a beautiful kotegaeishi. But my friend started freaking out, so I pulled the technique at the point of the blow. I didn't want to hurt him, and he was fighting it like hell!

Anyway, in adendum to my previous question, are aikido techniques perhaps too dangerous to use in a sparring situation? I think it's crappy that my friend is able to use everything in his repatoire when sparring with me, but when I can take advantage of what I know to do, well, I didn't.

So I maybe done with sparring, but I'd love to hear other people's opinions on the matter.

Thanks,

Joe

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#127353 - 02/12/04 12:32 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
well Joe this is an age old debate that I don't think will ever have an answer. To me its the setting in which you are doing your technique. By this I mean what is allowed. Most Strikers do not think Aiki will work in a fight. Aiki practioners feel they can defend against strikers. In a setting of 'anything goes' this is what is probably going to happen. The Aikidoka will be hit, and the Karateka will probably have a sprain or dislocation of some joint. Even at sparring speed(which we go anywhere from 25-50%)Aiki techniques can be dangerous. However remember too, that in a sparring situation that they are not going as fast as possible or with as much power as possible. Same with Aiki, techniques are not done at full speed because of risk of injury. My first venture to spar with a Karateka and only use Aikido was a no win situation. He resisted my techniques, so the harder I had to do it, the harder he punched, which led to a wrist injury for him. Also Karateka do not fall as well so a throw can be dangerous too. My Karate Sensei had me face eveyone in the class and all I could use was my Jujutsu arts, no striking. I took as much as I gave. He then told me I could strike and kick and use my Aiki and Jujutsu. This was where I took charge, as my strikes kept them off balanced and they didn't know when I would use my joint locking arts. This kept them at bay and mainly frustrated. This experiment that my Sensei did taught me the best way to train is strike and lock. I then added ground work which made things a bit more difficult to handle. My only comment about this, that is a bit negative is this. In Aikido you are mainly defensive, which allows the attack to keep coming. So sometimes a good offense is needed as well. A good offense is a great defense, so sometimes you need to overwhelm them and most Aiki styles don't give you that opportunity. Also, most Aikidoka don't train in the repetitious form of striking like that of a Karateka, so you don't face the Karate kind of striking.This can be a bit of a challenge unless you practice with a Karateka. Finally I don't think Aiki's intent is to spar with a Karateka. Not saying it can't be done, but doing so goes against the tenents of Aiki. remember that sparring is a tool, and is native to the Karate Arts. Jiyuwaza and Randori are native to Aiki arts and those are their sparring tools. So you can see the purpose of the 2 were not inteneded to face each other. Karate philosopy is to fight fire with a volcano. Aiki's philosphy is to fight fire with water, so its hard to have a place where 2 can use their arts against one another.

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#127354 - 02/12/04 05:15 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
dazzler2 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 148
Loc: england
Interesting reply Lou. I agree very much with it.

Issue highlighted here is that Aikidoka tend to become blinkered and try just to use the somewhat static forms or techniques practiced in the dojo.

I'll suggest again that the techniques are just tools to develop tenkan and irimi or ying and yang.

Assuming one allows the opponent to start, having evaded the initial attack it is now time to go on the offensive. This does not limit one to the recognised techniques of Aikido...Any entering work and atemi is fine.

As Lou says..."A good offense is a great defense"

Cheers

D

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#127355 - 02/19/04 10:11 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
A good response Lou, and I can only agree with you. The usefullness of sparring with exponents of other arts is quite a debatable point, and I would guess it all depends on what you hope to achieve from it as to how much use it will be.

Training is training, and percursive arts will always have the advantage in sparring because they lend themselves to it better than aikido does. Aikido wasn't designed with sparring in mind and most of the fighting tools of the aikidoka will be blunted by the duty of care toward your sparring partner. It is easier to control the power a punch (especially if you train that way regularly) than it is to apply sankyo gently. I think in general the aikidoka is better advised not to spar with other stylists, mainly because the other stylists will very likely be much better at it.

Budo

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#127356 - 03/02/04 01:28 PM Re: Sparring with other MA's
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Joe, One time on vacation in St. Thomas I found this remote spot on a beach to work out. I was doing Kata when this guy ran buy me in a Gi, I purposely found the most romote spot possible because I didn't want to attract any attention (shy). We were both black belt and he had a black Gi instead of white. He ran by me again and turned around and we introduced ourselve and commented on how wierd it was that two MA people met this way. Anyway it was early in the morning and we didn't finish showing each other our styles until after lunch. We even sparred for about twenty minutes. He was an Aikido instructor and I was Tang So Doo instructor, my point is that we/I had one of the best MA expierences in my life. I alway love to spare/learn anything possible from other styles. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Bonzai

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#127357 - 03/03/04 09:07 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
If you can find someone from another style that is interested in the possibility of learning something new and sharing concepts, sparring with them can be a great tool. If however the two of you are going to just "go at it" then I agree with Cato's last post, the Karate guy is probably going to have much more fun.

In my own case, I've found guys that will show what they are doing and why. When I find entrances and controls that work, I'm happy to show tehm how I'm getting in on them. I like the dynamic and unpredictable atmosphere of putting on the gloves and working with different people of different sizes and fighting styles.

I initially found it difficult to control distances and initiative when punches, kicks, combinations and feints were used by skilled fighters. I've been very happy with the changes in my aikido over the last year since I've incorporated 2-4 sparring sessions a month.

now I'm looking to change the nature of my sparring to a more controlled activity rather than a free-for-all.

I guess it comes down to " IF you find value or fun in it, go for it. If you don't find value or fun in it, don't waste your time"

Chris

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#127358 - 03/03/04 08:02 PM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
Thanks for the replies guys.

Perhaps I am not at the point in my training where I need to be sparring, or perhaps I need to find a different partner, one not so keen on showing me what "doesn't work."

Joe

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#127359 - 03/04/04 07:03 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Perhaps there is no requirement to ever reach a point in your training when you need to spar with other stylists, Joe. It might be worth persevering with your over keen training partner and telling him/her that they're not helping your training as much as they could be.

It might just be that they think they're doing the right thing, or they could just have difficulty accepting a technique, in effect "losing" the fight, when you apply it. Either way, by sticking with them your improving your technique (difficult uke's are buggers to work with, but they improve you quicker than easy uke's do) and you might just help them as well. Remember, there's more to training than fighting.

Budo

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#127360 - 03/04/04 11:23 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
Perhaps there is no requirement to ever reach a point in your training when you need to spar with other stylists, Joe. It might be worth persevering with your over keen training partner and telling him/her that they're not helping your training as much as they could be.

It might just be that they think they're doing the right thing, or they could just have difficulty accepting a technique, in effect "losing" the fight, when you apply it. Either way, by sticking with them your improving your technique (difficult uke's are buggers to work with, but they improve you quicker than easy uke's do) and you might just help them as well. Remember, there's more to training than fighting.

Budo
[/QUOTE]

True true, good points Cato. There is much more to training than fighting, in fact, heres to not fighting! (Cheers!) As for tough ukes, well I can be a bugger of an uke as well if I'm asked to, and in the confines of the dojo I thank people when the jam up my technique. I don't think anyone could argue against honesty vs. delusion in ones training. And I wasn't really fighting with my kung fu friend at all, it's all friendly. The types of attacks that he throws are very different than what I'm used to, really flowing with lots of feints and stuff. If and when I get into one of these sparring games with him (he likes to initiate them), I think I'll just point out that when he tells me to stop because he has weak wrists, I'll point out that that is analogous to tapping out.

Play nice,

Joe

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#127361 - 03/14/04 10:58 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think Aikido can defend againt striking.

I don't do Aikido..my point in saying that is you don't have to know Aikido to defend against striking. After training in a striking art like Shotokan for a number of years, it comes to you just like that and it's actually all common sense.

If you understand how distancing and timing work to making striking effective...you can control them to make striking ineffective.

IMPORTANT:
Angle of attack (45 degrees or more)
Control
Off-balancing (strikes become ineffective)
Position (being close and way (45 or more degrees from the front of the opponent)

Strike can be made ineffective with distancing and footwork.

e.g Kicks are only a treat if the tip of the leg (foot) is close to you...if you close the distance so that you are past the foot and close to the thigh...you are safe

Same for the punch...get past the fist and you are safe for the moment...

Steping back or in the direction of a kick or punch while it is landing will also make the striking ineffective.

My 2 cents...

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 03-14-2004).]

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#127362 - 03/15/04 01:15 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I just don't understand how you can make statements about Aikido when you don't train in it or have trained in in it. You can't understand the principles of Aikido without practicing the art. I will only address one part of your statement and that is the 45' angle. Aikido is mainly based on the 90' not the 45' so if Aikido is based on the 90'and you suggest the 45' how is Aikido suppose to work on the 45'? Having trained in Karate prior to my Aikido training, one of the hardest lessons I had to deal with was getting off the 45' and working the 90'. Upon leaving Aikido and going back to Karate, again it was a major adjustment. Once you learn how to adjust its easier, but unless you practice at the 90' and then at the 45' its not fair to suggest that something does work unless you have made it so.I takes years to learn how to move effectively in Aikido with Timing-Space and angles in a fluid movement. to suggest that Aikido will work on the 45' because your does, doesn't mean Aikido works that way. I suggest you train in the art, before you make general comments about it. Aikido is pinciple driven, and you can't understand these unless you are on the mat and feel the body move. Not every art fits into its little space. There is much more to Aikido and unless you practice it, you really don't understand HOW it works. It would be like saying Shotokan stances aren't very mobile. Its not fair to judge this unless you work your techniques from that stance and compare it to your own. Same is true here.

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#127363 - 03/15/04 03:28 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
I just don't understand how you can make statements about Aikido when you don't train in it or have trained in in it. You can't understand the principles of Aikido without practicing the art. I will only address one part of your statement and that is the 45' angle. Aikido is mainly based on the 90' not the 45' so if Aikido is based on the 90'and you suggest the 45' how is Aikido suppose to work on the 45'? Having trained in Karate prior to my Aikido training, one of the hardest lessons I had to deal with was getting off the 45' and working the 90'. Upon leaving Aikido and going back to Karate, again it was a major adjustment. Once you learn how to adjust its easier, but unless you practice at the 90' and then at the 45' its not fair to suggest that something does work unless you have made it so.I takes years to learn how to move effectively in Aikido with Timing-Space and angles in a fluid movement. to suggest that Aikido will work on the 45' because your does, doesn't mean Aikido works that way. I suggest you train in the art, before you make general comments about it. Aikido is pinciple driven, and you can't understand these unless you are on the mat and feel the body move. Not every art fits into its little space. There is much more to Aikido and unless you practice it, you really don't understand HOW it works. It would be like saying Shotokan stances aren't very mobile. Its not fair to judge this unless you work your techniques from that stance and compare it to your own. Same is true here.[/QUOTE]

Your quite the stud man who knows it all eh!

Kiddin

I said clearly in my post that I do not know Aikido. I am no one to give advice on Aikido. I do however have common sense [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

I train in a striking art and during the course of my training I have come to realize that strikes can be easily made ineffective...same as grappling...using some tricks that are nothing more than common sense.

[QUOTE] I suggest you train in the art, before you make general comments about it [/QUOTE]

::Clears throat:: Now when did I make comments about Aikido?

I don't care about how Aikido works...any idiot can follow the advice I gave and pull it off against a trained striker...It doesn't matter what art you train it...it doesn't matter if you train at all, you can be a boxer or you can be granma sitting at home knitting a hat.

Do you know why it's general, because physics is general. It is the the law of the universe.

If Aikido cannot work at 45 degrees then screw that line and read the others [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Common Sense

My 2 cents. What's the exchange rate?

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 03-15-2004).]

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#127364 - 03/15/04 09:06 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Shotokan,

The art of Aikido (and jsut about any other I've run across) is more than just " a few simple tricks" that "any idiot can follow". Though I've got to say, if you ever end up in Southern California I'd like to see some of these tricks. I'm very curious about other perspectives and if you have found the way to complete self defense through a few simple tricks, I could free up a lot of time for something other than old fashioned hard training!

If we discard your 45' advice, what's to say any of your other advice is worth keeping?

"e.g Kicks are only a treat if the tip of the leg (foot) is close to you...if you close the distance so that you are past the foot and close to the thigh...you are safe"

At that range you are certainly not safe, you are in a clinch where I can think of several ways the feet can still cause you problems plus you've entered in knee, elbow and headbutt range. I'd think we may want to look a bit further at this helpful tip.

Chris

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#127365 - 03/15/04 09:37 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Originally Posted By Shotokan:

"I said clearly in my post that I do not know Aikido. I am no one to give advice on Aikido. I do however have common sense [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]"

Debatable.

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#127366 - 03/15/04 10:51 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shotokan:
I think Aikido can defend againt striking. [/QUOTE]

I don't think anyone said anything to the contrary...

"Steping back or in the direction of a kick or punch while it is landing will also make the striking ineffective."

Sounds like your hinting at the concept of ma ai, or harmonious distance.

Joe

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#127367 - 03/15/04 11:28 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raul Perez:
Originally Posted By Shotokan:

"I said clearly in my post that I do not know Aikido. I am no one to give advice on Aikido. I do however have common sense [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]"

Debatable.
[/QUOTE]

Omg not again!!!


If an Aikidoka is gonna beat someone from another style who is the best person to consult? Isn't it from someone of the style that he is trying to beat?

[QUOTE] Sounds like your hinting at the concept of ma ai, or harmonious distance. [/QUOTE]

Right. Move in harmony with the attack.

Take this as a simple experiement. Let someone take a stick and wack you on the side of you head with the tip of the stick. Does it hurt? Yes. LAMO...Raul tell me about it afterwards [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Now, let the swing at you again only this time step inwards, to close range, so that the tip of the stick is past you. You are safe from being hit by the stick because the wedge is on the end wish is out of your range.

From that close distance you are safer because strikes cannot develop as much power at close range due to less distance in the formula (force * distance).

Not of this should be seen as the ultimate answer [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] Chris...

I'll stop here...over doing it huh [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 03-15-2004).]

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#127368 - 03/15/04 11:38 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Anonymous
Unregistered


Shotoakan
Are you deliberately going out of your way to upset the whole forum or have you posted here because you have run out of people to upset on MA Talk and Kata?

Senseilou, I hope you don't think all karatekas are like this.
Sharon

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#127369 - 03/15/04 11:44 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by wadowoman:
Shotoakan
Are you deliberately going out of your way to upset the whole forum or have you posted here because you have run out of people to upset on MA Talk and Kata?

Senseilou, I hope you don't think all karatekas are like this.
Sharon
[/QUOTE]

I only seem to be upseting Senseilou.

I don't see what I have done to upset anyone. Can someone point that out for me? Don't post much in Kata.

Thanks Wadowoman for the advice [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
Is that your name "Sharon"

Some how you have developed a stereotype of me...despite not knowing much about me.

How long have you been training?

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 03-15-2004).]

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#127370 - 03/15/04 11:54 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yes my name is Sharon. I have been training around 10 years but in this particular discusion it would not matter if it were only 10 minutes.

I wasn't giving advice, I was asking a question.

As for not posting on kata, it was only a couple of days ago that you entitled your thread "for those idiots......" thus insulting half the membership.

Oh, and the stereo type thing - not really, I speak as I find. You may not realise this because I am usually more polite about it than you usually are.
Sharon (my name)

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#127371 - 03/15/04 11:56 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
The tip of the stick hurt like hell [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
I moved in and the middle of the stick hurt like hell [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
I moved in farther and his elbow hurt like hell [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Oh wait was I supposed to put my hands up or something? You have to help me out with these things... I am, after all, an idiot [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif[/IMG]

Raul

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#127372 - 03/15/04 11:56 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Anonymous
Unregistered


Tell you want I'll post another topic asking if anyone was offended or if they think you are making a big thing out of nothing [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Maybe this is one of your feministic qualities. (refering to your post females)

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 03-15-2004).]

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#127373 - 03/15/04 11:57 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raul Perez:
The tip of the stick hurt like hell [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
I moved in and the middle of the stick hurt like hell [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
I moved in farther and his elbow hurt like hell [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Oh wait was I supposed to put my hands up or something? You have to help me out with these things... I am, after all, an idiot [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif[/IMG]

Raul
[/QUOTE]

You people are being difficult for the fun of it [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] If I ever had to teach students like you I'd end up screaming...

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#127374 - 03/15/04 12:11 PM Re: Sparring with other MA's
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Wadowoman......Just by your posts I wouldn't just lump you into any category. You seem to have great knowledge and can see through the screen set up by beginners or people who just don't know or understand what they are talking about. I have trained alot of years in Karate as well(Shito Ryu)and have trained with some great Masters and other great students. I have the utmost for respect for all Arts especially the ones I started with(Aikido and Karate). I know there are more good people out there in any art, then the 'bad apples' who claim this and that. Even though Cato and I are bitter enemies(just kidding)I respect him, because he has put in his time. What just drives me nuts are people who 'talk out of their hat'(and other orafices)and spread bad information. They are not responsible for what they say. If someone doesn't shoot them down then their garbage is spread. You never know when someone impressionable may listen to the bad advise.I think alot of times beginners or even intermediate students just like to see their name or their thoughts in print. I would have thought they would have gotten that out of their system with all the paers they wrote in high school(and still may be doing so) or in college.I have no problem with stupid questions, its the stupid statements that drive me nuts. Sometimes I think people do this just to rock the boat. I also realize we have key board warriors who never could last through a class if they had too, especially a hard style karate class. Those of us who have had to do basics for 2 hours and walk accross the dojo floor and Kata for three, can spot the ones who just don't know what they are talking about. And yes Shotokan you do upset me, because you don't know what you are talking about. You may think you do, and really thats the biggest problem. Anyone who thinks that Martial Arts is just some simple bunch of tricks that anyone can do doesn't say much about themselves. If you think all it takes is common sense, then you don't have any. I can't believe your Sensei would approve of your thoughts, and the bad information you spread. If you want to join the big leagues, and talk about the arts then go study them. You may be a fine Shotkan practioner, though if all you learned was common sense, a few tricks and the 45' angle I doubt it. But if you haven't studied other arts , or know HOW they work or what makes them work, keep your opinion to yourself, or take the plunge, get out of your dojo, quit watching Stephen Segals movies and TRAIN!

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#127375 - 03/15/04 12:17 PM Re: Sparring with other MA's
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
P.S. the fact that you teach is even scarier. Number 2, if you can't accept femine views you not only don't belong here, you don't belong in the dojo. Grow up and act like you have trained even if you haven't. The comment to Wadowoman(Sharon) is offensive to me, as I am a big proponent of females in the arts, one big reason is they have more class, and more polite than 'macho boneheads' like you. I think you need to find another post to aggrevate.!

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#127376 - 03/15/04 03:18 PM Re: Sparring with other MA's
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Shotokan,

"Do you know why it's general, because physics is general. It is the the law of the universe." Seems like Physics isn't much stronger than your Aikido..."

Physics is pretty darn specific. You may not be but physics is.

If you multiply Force and Distance you will have a number reperesenting Work. Divide that number by the time in which that Force is applied over that Distance and you will have Power.

Having done all that, all you've really accomplished is figuring out how much work I have to do to get my foot from point A to point B at a given acceleration. At the moment of impact, what really matters is how much mass my foot has and how fast it is going. It mattters not how far it travelled to reach that velocity.

You may be thinking that velocity is acceleration * time and that the more time I have to accelerate my foot the faster it will be travelling at impact.

I don't think anyone would doubt that a jambed kick is less powerful than a ranged kick. But your comment was that inside kicking distance, "close to the thigh you are safe". I strongly disagree with that statement.

Chris

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#127377 - 03/15/04 07:02 PM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yes, Chris you are safe from the kick and nothing more (is that what you strongly disagree about)...I am fully aware of the clinch and other close quarter stuff (punches, grabes etc)...but at that moment you are at the outside of the opponents leg and he is standing on one foot great opportunity to off-balance him.... seize the moment huh?

Closing the distance is the best way to make strikes ineffective or reduce their effect. That's the same philosophy the Gracies use. Why do boxers go into the clinch?

F*D=Work If you can decrease the D in the formula by closing the distance you will reduce the amount of W the stick does to you.

[QUOTE] And yes Shotokan you do upset me, because you don't know what you are talking about. [/QUOTE]

Sensi Lou, I know you are disciplined in many arts...I remember you said you study 4 forms of Ju Jitsu, Aikido, Aiki Jitsu, and now Shito Ryu...I didn't mean to offend anyone...I was just sharing my 2 cents.

I see my advice isn't having the effect on you that I wished.

I'm sure you Aikidokas have your ideas on how to deal with strikers, but it wouldn't hurt to look a it from a different angle from a different perspective and see if it can benefit you [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] I am always willing to listen to other peoples advice even if it is unpopular.

Fine. I'll stop sharing it.

Jumping to conclusions about my veiws of women eh! Learn how to take things lightly it's good for you health.

Good luck and good bye!!!
Enjoy your discussion.


Everyone is at liberty to ignore and disagree, but...

Geeze, why do some people on these boards have an attitude when they disagree with someone when they say something unpopular rather than absording any goodness from it...I guess some people just know everthing.

I wish I could understand how I disrespected you Sensi Lou by sharing my two cents. You are the one who responded with the trashing and discrediting of my character.

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 03-15-2004).]

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#127378 - 03/16/04 01:26 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
Shotokan-

Admitedly I have not followed all of your threads, but for what it's worth you have NOT come across at least in the aikido forum as disrespectful... It seems as if others might harbor other discrepencies with you, but I do respect and encourage your opinions.

As to the lineages of certain arts, I understand the value but at this point outside of aikido I could care less... I am more concerned with how they move and I do appreciate your perspective, but do not have the background to comment one way or the other so let's suffice to say that your comments, whether positively or negatively received (by the majority), are informative to others...

Joe

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#127379 - 03/16/04 01:34 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
In adendum to my last post..

I'd like this thread to get a little back on topic...

Aikidoka out there (like the three of us), do you think it's a positive or negative experience to spar with other MA's....

And to other MA's... (especially MMA's)

Do you find any merit in sparring with aikidoka (or I guess ju jutsuka along the same lines)... And if you get caught in a joint lock do you for pride or other reasons fight it to the point of a break, or do you look at stand-up wrist locks as a point for a tapout (which at my level I think my sparring "friends" need to accept over screaming bloody murder).

Joe

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#127380 - 03/16/04 02:00 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Anonymous
Unregistered


As well as karate I have a (very) limited knowledge of jujitsu. By that I mean I can do simple locks. I can still only throw a cooperating partner but have not mastered throwing a resisting one (yet).

I think sparrring with people from other disciplines is a great experience. At a self defence class a while ago, three of us, me and two large experienced men had a lot of trouble restraining a guy who had done a lot of aikido because his movement was fluid and continuous.

One on one it is difficult to strike him, again because he moves so well.

It was a good experience.

And no, I am not proud or stupid enough to keep fighting once a good lock is on (makes me mad when people do this).
Sharon

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#127381 - 03/16/04 09:49 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Joe,

As I've mentioned previously on this thread, I do spar with MAs from other styles. I cross train in Krav Maga and spar regularly with some Wado-Ryu guys. I also know people in three different BJJ groups that I occassionally will "roll" with. I've also driven to visit Sensei Lou a couple times and I'm hoping to do so again soon. I find tremendous value in working with folks from other styles and with different perspectives. I pick up what works for me and discard what doesn't. What works for me now is very different than what I was doin two years ago, and I hope to be very different in another two years.

It's fun to put on the gloves and just "go at it" for awhile and you will get a new perspective on how quickly technique can go out the window. But I would offer some advice that I just recently received from Sensei Lou, use the sparring in a focused manner. Pick the one thing that you really want to work on and make sure you are working that one thing. Don't get caught up in the energy and excitement but focus on training. If you want to train yourself to be relaxed, then don't worry about hitting the opther guy or even getting any locks initially, have them come at you 50% and just move. If you want to work locks, have them start out at 50% and see what positions you can put yourself in to get the locks, then work the lock, then work the speed.

When I have consciously done this I have learned a tremendous amount. Most important to me was when I stay within my training, things actually work out fairly well for me.

Shotokan, In this same vein, I really would be open to working out with you if you ever find yourself in Southern California. We don't have to agree on everything but if you show me something that works and fits in with what I am doing, I can assure you I will incorporate it. I'll also listen if you can show why some of the things I'm doing won't work. On a good day I might even show you something worthwhile.

Chris

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#127382 - 03/16/04 03:06 PM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
Thanks for the replies. I think that perhaps I need to find a different sparring partner, but I won't abandon the thought altogether.

Chris- I've seen the name Krav Maga thrown around quite a bit. What are the characteristics of the art and where did it originate?

Joe

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#127383 - 03/17/04 10:19 PM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by csinca:
Joe,

As I've mentioned previously on this thread, I do spar with MAs from other styles. I cross train in Krav Maga and spar regularly with some Wado-Ryu guys. I also know people in three different BJJ groups that I occassionally will "roll" with. I've also driven to visit Sensei Lou a couple times and I'm hoping to do so again soon. I find tremendous value in working with folks from other styles and with different perspectives. I pick up what works for me and discard what doesn't. What works for me now is very different than what I was doin two years ago, and I hope to be very different in another two years.

It's fun to put on the gloves and just "go at it" for awhile and you will get a new perspective on how quickly technique can go out the window. But I would offer some advice that I just recently received from Sensei Lou, use the sparring in a focused manner. Pick the one thing that you really want to work on and make sure you are working that one thing. Don't get caught up in the energy and excitement but focus on training. If you want to train yourself to be relaxed, then don't worry about hitting the opther guy or even getting any locks initially, have them come at you 50% and just move. If you want to work locks, have them start out at 50% and see what positions you can put yourself in to get the locks, then work the lock, then work the speed.

When I have consciously done this I have learned a tremendous amount. Most important to me was when I stay within my training, things actually work out fairly well for me.

Shotokan, In this same vein, I really would be open to working out with you if you ever find yourself in Southern California. We don't have to agree on everything but if you show me something that works and fits in with what I am doing, I can assure you I will incorporate it. I'll also listen if you can show why some of the things I'm doing won't work. On a good day I might even show you something worthwhile.

Chris
[/QUOTE]

Will see Chris.

Now why can't there be more people like this guy on these forums? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Warm regards, Shotokan

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 03-17-2004).]

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#127384 - 03/21/04 10:42 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Joe,

Krav Maga is the "Official Self Defense Art of Isreal" and I've been told translates into "Contact Combat". It's basics are a limited number of strikes put together in "combatives" or combinations. I'm not trying to promote it or make any claims for the art. You can get the background at kravmaga.com

I was curious and checked out a class about a year ago, I go twice a week for a 1 1/2 to 2 hour class (the times change periodically). I keep going for a couple reasons.

1. It is a great workout, the class is continuous and includes cardio, pushups, situps and other PT types drills.
2. Usually the second half of the class is all partner work with target pads. I really wanted to work on my striking and every class I get a chance to work various striking combinations to exhaustion.

For me it is also a challenge of what I can accomplish when I'm dead tired and want nothing more than to stop and catch my breathe.

Chris

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#127385 - 03/22/04 04:15 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
dazzler2 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 148
Loc: england
ignore this...dummy post to get around technical issue stopping me reading other posts

Mr V ...can you delete it when you are free?

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#127386 - 06/09/04 05:48 PM Re: Sparring with other MA's
backwardwalker@yahoo.com Offline
Stranger

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 2
Loc: fl,usa
I've been training in a variety of arts (judo,wrestling,aikido, wing chun, boxing) for quite a few years now. Each has valuable concepts and techniques. But, I greatly prefer practicing skills that will work for me against skilled partners who attack with realistic and common attacks like punches, tackles, grabs etc. So, because I enjoy practical skills more than kata and sport only tactics, I prefer to practice judo throws that don't rely on a gi, wrestling takedowns that don't require me to bang my knees nor grab at the ankles, aikido throws and leading motions that work on resisting partners and wing chun sticking and striking skills that work against non wing chun folks. So, does aikido work against other arts?. Yes, it can but only if you practice with a good deal of practicality in mind. Here is an example, Try shoving/clawing at your karate/kung fu partners face with a backhanded motion.. repeatedly, until you force a reaction. Eventually, he will block/push away your wrist(or get clawed hehe!). Use his resistance/motion and apply ikkyo or use a leading motion to pull him into another technique.. It works like a charm because you forced a reaction. To me, this is one of the hidden ideas of aikido.
If you have discomfort dealing with a striking or grappling style it means that you have stayed too much within the world of aikido. Originally the founder would not teach anyone who lacked serious training in another martial art. Nowadays, people have forgotten that aikido NEEDS/REQUIRES practice against other arts to stay real. The lack of competition makes practice nice but it's easy to slip away into imaginary skill. Keep trying to learn how to apply aikido against other arts. It's very interesting to see how well it blends in with wing chun and wrestling..
If anyone is interested in hearing more of my ideas, I'm working on a book that shows how principles and techniques from Aikido, Judo, Wrestling and Wing Chun are all tied closely together. Please let me know if there are interested readers.
Thanks.

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#127387 - 06/13/04 02:01 PM Re: Sparring with other MA's
mateo Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 63
Loc: Toronto
I've trained in Korean hapkido for quite a few years and have also trained at some rather famous aikido and Daito-ryu schools in Japan.

I think that I've learned only a couple things which apply to the question at hand of training with people outside one's core discipline.

All of our training most readily applies to situations we find each ourselves in most frequently in the dojo/dojang.

If you don't train against someone well versed in boxing you are generally not great at defending against someone well versed in boxing. If you do not train against someone who is very skilled at 'shooting singles' you are generally not comfortable at defending against someone who is an adept at wrestling.

If your goal is to perform well against martial artists of varying backgrounds ( and I'm not sure that that is the goal for a great many practitioners )then you should put yourself in that situation as often as possible.

I personally enjoy these situations but not everyone does and this does not necessarily mean that their arts lack merit on many levels. All arts which have passed the test of time have done so because of their worth. If you put yourself in different fighting situations with time and patience you'll learn how to effectively respond to these situations with techniques which come from any art.

Another issue however became very clear when I was training at one dojo in Japan where the practitioners practised more than one art separately. In different arts there are differing body movements and fighting strategies which are preferred. Often practitioners will wear one hat when striking, another when practising aikido style locking and yet another when they start to wrestle. Practising without a unified view of idea of how one should move and what strategies one prefers can sometimes lead to confusion even amongst very serious practitioners.

My only advice would be to try to incorporate techniques and approaches which do not defy principles in your core art. I found for example that judo matched quite seamlessly with my hapkido while shotokan karate training suggested a quite different approach to the fundamentals of the way I had been taught to move in hapkido.

In randori I think it also important after sufficient training to let yourself respond naturally to a given situation and not ask "Is this something I've been taught to do in this situation?" or "Is it okay for an aikidoist to strike in this manner?" and just react in a way which seems appropriate.

For your training to be something you own you have to let it come out naturally. In my opinion at some point you have to ask "Do I own the training or does the training own me?" Am I trying to do something which I have been taught and feels unnatural at this given moment or is my prior training showing up in my instinctive movements and is something which I've internalized. I think we all hope for the latter.

Just my opinion,

P.S. - I also didn't find the level animosity directed toward user:SHOTOKAN merited by things he wrote in this thread.

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#127388 - 06/21/04 02:48 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
reaperblack Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 558
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
A little backround: I have don't martial arts for most of my life, 18 different styles that I have played with at one point or another, some times 2 or 3 at the same time. Aikido is not for sparring, especially not when you are drunk, if you want to be able to play with your friends take tkd or shotokan karate. Something with lots of kicking and punching. Aikido is self defense. My aikido Sensei once asked why we do aikido slowly and in a softer line during practise, the answer "someone would die or all my student would end up in hospital" Aikido has techniques that have been slightly modified to make them safe to practise, when you are drunk you remove the safety, and it's easy to use a little more force, or speed, or a slightly different arc, and really hurt a friend.
I know, I did. And I still feel bad almost ten years later.

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#127389 - 11/08/04 01:12 PM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Anonymous
Unregistered


Aikido is mainly based on the 90' not the 45'

I have been thinking about this for a while now and I'm not sure I agree with this. Maybe I'm missing the point or misunderstanding something here.

I use something like 45 degrees a whole lot more than I use 90 degrees. I try to reduce the angles as much as possible. Like I'd rather irimi for shomenuchi ikkyo or men tsuki with a 5 degree angle if possible.

For Iriminage, I normally start with something closer to 45 degree angle and then step laterally, and do a 90 degree turn to get them to come infront of me, but that is the only place I can think of off the top of my head where I specifically go for a 90 degree angle. I suppose it might happen in the beginnnig of the attack while drawing someone into ryotedori shihonage ura, and maybe by accident in a kotegaishi, but I wouldn't say aikido is based on 90 degrees.

What was meant by that?

Thanks,
Rob

[This message has been edited by rob_liberti (edited 11-16-2004).]

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#127390 - 11/10/04 01:56 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think alot of people have missed the point when it comes to sparring. Sparring for all intents and purposes is fighting. It may not be all out due to respect of the other party involved but it is still fighting. If your afraid to apply a technique in a controlled enviroment where damage and injury are minimal what makes one think they can do it in a real life situation? I have read quiet a few posts on here where people claimed to have sparred once and they hurt or almost hurt thier buddy or friend and they dont want to spar anymore. I don't think that that is the right approach. When I spar with my friends the last thing I want to do is to hurt them. That said when they step on to the mat or into the ring they understand that they can adn probably will get hurt. Its the nature of the beast. We don't go all out but there have been y noses and black eyes. Sore arms and buises from throws and locks. These things are inevitable. The best way to avoid any missunderstanding with your sparring partner is to lay out the ground rules ahead of time. It will be beneficial to all and you'll have a more enjoyable fight.

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#127391 - 12/29/04 11:06 PM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Anonymous
Unregistered


Firstly, I think you need to define "sparring". What is "sparring"? What are the rules?

I think it needs to be clear that each martial art "style" is bound by a set of explicit and implicit rules. These rules exist for the safety of its participants. E.g. in TKD, no strikes below the belt and no hand strikes to the face. Likewise, some styles of aikido do not use kicking for that reason - not safe for uke to take the ukemi. Similarly, no biting, no eye-gouging, no hair pulling, no scratching - these are all "rule-based" constructs to define the boundary of what is acceptable "sportsman-like behaviour" in a "sparring" situation.

Obviously, logic dictates that that is not going to work in a street/self defence situation.

I can appreciate some people's need to "test" what works and what doesn't in a street situation - but in all honesty, I don't think
you can equate a sparring session as even coming close to such a situation.

The point is therefore moot. First off, engaging in a pugilistic contest with a different MA stylist is NOT a valid test. You are both trained in different responses. You are both operating from a different set of "rules".

A TKD/karate MA is not trained to be thrown. An aikidoka is not trained to be hit.

It's the old story of the epic contest between Tung Hai Chuan of BaGua fame and Kuo Yun Cheng of HsingI fame......

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#127392 - 12/30/04 09:31 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
[QUOTE]Originally posted by eyrie:

An aikidoka is not trained to be hit.

[/QUOTE]

Could this be why so many people question aikido?

I absolutely agree with all of your comments about different rules, but I personally think it is important to at least occasionally train outside your normal rules. It can be done safely as I do it on a regular basis. If you are training for self defense or the martial aspect of any art I think it is more dangerous to remain insulated within your rule set and never venturing out.

Chris

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#127393 - 12/30/04 03:13 PM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have no disagreement with "going outside the box (ruleset)".

All responses are equally valid - whether they are appropriate or not, and whether they work on uke and work for nage (or not) is an entirely different matter.

By all means, do go outside your normal parameters, but be aware that although your "conditioned" response may not be appropriate in certain circumstances, it does not necessarily mean it does not work or is not effective. It may not have worked in "that" situation against that particular person (at that particular point in time).

It also doesn't mean that you throw away a technique because it didn't "work". Or conversely (and mistakenly) believe that a technique is "effective" because it worked (against that person that one time).

[edited for clarity]

[This message has been edited by eyrie (edited 12-30-2004).]

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