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#127382 - 03/16/04 03:06 PM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
Thanks for the replies. I think that perhaps I need to find a different sparring partner, but I won't abandon the thought altogether.

Chris- I've seen the name Krav Maga thrown around quite a bit. What are the characteristics of the art and where did it originate?

Joe

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#127383 - 03/17/04 10:19 PM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by csinca:
Joe,

As I've mentioned previously on this thread, I do spar with MAs from other styles. I cross train in Krav Maga and spar regularly with some Wado-Ryu guys. I also know people in three different BJJ groups that I occassionally will "roll" with. I've also driven to visit Sensei Lou a couple times and I'm hoping to do so again soon. I find tremendous value in working with folks from other styles and with different perspectives. I pick up what works for me and discard what doesn't. What works for me now is very different than what I was doin two years ago, and I hope to be very different in another two years.

It's fun to put on the gloves and just "go at it" for awhile and you will get a new perspective on how quickly technique can go out the window. But I would offer some advice that I just recently received from Sensei Lou, use the sparring in a focused manner. Pick the one thing that you really want to work on and make sure you are working that one thing. Don't get caught up in the energy and excitement but focus on training. If you want to train yourself to be relaxed, then don't worry about hitting the opther guy or even getting any locks initially, have them come at you 50% and just move. If you want to work locks, have them start out at 50% and see what positions you can put yourself in to get the locks, then work the lock, then work the speed.

When I have consciously done this I have learned a tremendous amount. Most important to me was when I stay within my training, things actually work out fairly well for me.

Shotokan, In this same vein, I really would be open to working out with you if you ever find yourself in Southern California. We don't have to agree on everything but if you show me something that works and fits in with what I am doing, I can assure you I will incorporate it. I'll also listen if you can show why some of the things I'm doing won't work. On a good day I might even show you something worthwhile.

Chris
[/QUOTE]

Will see Chris.

Now why can't there be more people like this guy on these forums? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Warm regards, Shotokan

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 03-17-2004).]

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#127384 - 03/21/04 10:42 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Joe,

Krav Maga is the "Official Self Defense Art of Isreal" and I've been told translates into "Contact Combat". It's basics are a limited number of strikes put together in "combatives" or combinations. I'm not trying to promote it or make any claims for the art. You can get the background at kravmaga.com

I was curious and checked out a class about a year ago, I go twice a week for a 1 1/2 to 2 hour class (the times change periodically). I keep going for a couple reasons.

1. It is a great workout, the class is continuous and includes cardio, pushups, situps and other PT types drills.
2. Usually the second half of the class is all partner work with target pads. I really wanted to work on my striking and every class I get a chance to work various striking combinations to exhaustion.

For me it is also a challenge of what I can accomplish when I'm dead tired and want nothing more than to stop and catch my breathe.

Chris

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#127385 - 03/22/04 04:15 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
dazzler2 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 148
Loc: england
ignore this...dummy post to get around technical issue stopping me reading other posts

Mr V ...can you delete it when you are free?

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#127386 - 06/09/04 05:48 PM Re: Sparring with other MA's
backwardwalker@yahoo.com Offline
Stranger

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 2
Loc: fl,usa
I've been training in a variety of arts (judo,wrestling,aikido, wing chun, boxing) for quite a few years now. Each has valuable concepts and techniques. But, I greatly prefer practicing skills that will work for me against skilled partners who attack with realistic and common attacks like punches, tackles, grabs etc. So, because I enjoy practical skills more than kata and sport only tactics, I prefer to practice judo throws that don't rely on a gi, wrestling takedowns that don't require me to bang my knees nor grab at the ankles, aikido throws and leading motions that work on resisting partners and wing chun sticking and striking skills that work against non wing chun folks. So, does aikido work against other arts?. Yes, it can but only if you practice with a good deal of practicality in mind. Here is an example, Try shoving/clawing at your karate/kung fu partners face with a backhanded motion.. repeatedly, until you force a reaction. Eventually, he will block/push away your wrist(or get clawed hehe!). Use his resistance/motion and apply ikkyo or use a leading motion to pull him into another technique.. It works like a charm because you forced a reaction. To me, this is one of the hidden ideas of aikido.
If you have discomfort dealing with a striking or grappling style it means that you have stayed too much within the world of aikido. Originally the founder would not teach anyone who lacked serious training in another martial art. Nowadays, people have forgotten that aikido NEEDS/REQUIRES practice against other arts to stay real. The lack of competition makes practice nice but it's easy to slip away into imaginary skill. Keep trying to learn how to apply aikido against other arts. It's very interesting to see how well it blends in with wing chun and wrestling..
If anyone is interested in hearing more of my ideas, I'm working on a book that shows how principles and techniques from Aikido, Judo, Wrestling and Wing Chun are all tied closely together. Please let me know if there are interested readers.
Thanks.

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#127387 - 06/13/04 02:01 PM Re: Sparring with other MA's
mateo Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 63
Loc: Toronto
I've trained in Korean hapkido for quite a few years and have also trained at some rather famous aikido and Daito-ryu schools in Japan.

I think that I've learned only a couple things which apply to the question at hand of training with people outside one's core discipline.

All of our training most readily applies to situations we find each ourselves in most frequently in the dojo/dojang.

If you don't train against someone well versed in boxing you are generally not great at defending against someone well versed in boxing. If you do not train against someone who is very skilled at 'shooting singles' you are generally not comfortable at defending against someone who is an adept at wrestling.

If your goal is to perform well against martial artists of varying backgrounds ( and I'm not sure that that is the goal for a great many practitioners )then you should put yourself in that situation as often as possible.

I personally enjoy these situations but not everyone does and this does not necessarily mean that their arts lack merit on many levels. All arts which have passed the test of time have done so because of their worth. If you put yourself in different fighting situations with time and patience you'll learn how to effectively respond to these situations with techniques which come from any art.

Another issue however became very clear when I was training at one dojo in Japan where the practitioners practised more than one art separately. In different arts there are differing body movements and fighting strategies which are preferred. Often practitioners will wear one hat when striking, another when practising aikido style locking and yet another when they start to wrestle. Practising without a unified view of idea of how one should move and what strategies one prefers can sometimes lead to confusion even amongst very serious practitioners.

My only advice would be to try to incorporate techniques and approaches which do not defy principles in your core art. I found for example that judo matched quite seamlessly with my hapkido while shotokan karate training suggested a quite different approach to the fundamentals of the way I had been taught to move in hapkido.

In randori I think it also important after sufficient training to let yourself respond naturally to a given situation and not ask "Is this something I've been taught to do in this situation?" or "Is it okay for an aikidoist to strike in this manner?" and just react in a way which seems appropriate.

For your training to be something you own you have to let it come out naturally. In my opinion at some point you have to ask "Do I own the training or does the training own me?" Am I trying to do something which I have been taught and feels unnatural at this given moment or is my prior training showing up in my instinctive movements and is something which I've internalized. I think we all hope for the latter.

Just my opinion,

P.S. - I also didn't find the level animosity directed toward user:SHOTOKAN merited by things he wrote in this thread.

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#127388 - 06/21/04 02:48 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
reaperblack Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 558
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
A little backround: I have don't martial arts for most of my life, 18 different styles that I have played with at one point or another, some times 2 or 3 at the same time. Aikido is not for sparring, especially not when you are drunk, if you want to be able to play with your friends take tkd or shotokan karate. Something with lots of kicking and punching. Aikido is self defense. My aikido Sensei once asked why we do aikido slowly and in a softer line during practise, the answer "someone would die or all my student would end up in hospital" Aikido has techniques that have been slightly modified to make them safe to practise, when you are drunk you remove the safety, and it's easy to use a little more force, or speed, or a slightly different arc, and really hurt a friend.
I know, I did. And I still feel bad almost ten years later.

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#127389 - 11/08/04 01:12 PM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Anonymous
Unregistered


Aikido is mainly based on the 90' not the 45'

I have been thinking about this for a while now and I'm not sure I agree with this. Maybe I'm missing the point or misunderstanding something here.

I use something like 45 degrees a whole lot more than I use 90 degrees. I try to reduce the angles as much as possible. Like I'd rather irimi for shomenuchi ikkyo or men tsuki with a 5 degree angle if possible.

For Iriminage, I normally start with something closer to 45 degree angle and then step laterally, and do a 90 degree turn to get them to come infront of me, but that is the only place I can think of off the top of my head where I specifically go for a 90 degree angle. I suppose it might happen in the beginnnig of the attack while drawing someone into ryotedori shihonage ura, and maybe by accident in a kotegaishi, but I wouldn't say aikido is based on 90 degrees.

What was meant by that?

Thanks,
Rob

[This message has been edited by rob_liberti (edited 11-16-2004).]

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#127390 - 11/10/04 01:56 AM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think alot of people have missed the point when it comes to sparring. Sparring for all intents and purposes is fighting. It may not be all out due to respect of the other party involved but it is still fighting. If your afraid to apply a technique in a controlled enviroment where damage and injury are minimal what makes one think they can do it in a real life situation? I have read quiet a few posts on here where people claimed to have sparred once and they hurt or almost hurt thier buddy or friend and they dont want to spar anymore. I don't think that that is the right approach. When I spar with my friends the last thing I want to do is to hurt them. That said when they step on to the mat or into the ring they understand that they can adn probably will get hurt. Its the nature of the beast. We don't go all out but there have been y noses and black eyes. Sore arms and buises from throws and locks. These things are inevitable. The best way to avoid any missunderstanding with your sparring partner is to lay out the ground rules ahead of time. It will be beneficial to all and you'll have a more enjoyable fight.

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#127391 - 12/29/04 11:06 PM Re: Sparring with other MA's
Anonymous
Unregistered


Firstly, I think you need to define "sparring". What is "sparring"? What are the rules?

I think it needs to be clear that each martial art "style" is bound by a set of explicit and implicit rules. These rules exist for the safety of its participants. E.g. in TKD, no strikes below the belt and no hand strikes to the face. Likewise, some styles of aikido do not use kicking for that reason - not safe for uke to take the ukemi. Similarly, no biting, no eye-gouging, no hair pulling, no scratching - these are all "rule-based" constructs to define the boundary of what is acceptable "sportsman-like behaviour" in a "sparring" situation.

Obviously, logic dictates that that is not going to work in a street/self defence situation.

I can appreciate some people's need to "test" what works and what doesn't in a street situation - but in all honesty, I don't think
you can equate a sparring session as even coming close to such a situation.

The point is therefore moot. First off, engaging in a pugilistic contest with a different MA stylist is NOT a valid test. You are both trained in different responses. You are both operating from a different set of "rules".

A TKD/karate MA is not trained to be thrown. An aikidoka is not trained to be hit.

It's the old story of the epic contest between Tung Hai Chuan of BaGua fame and Kuo Yun Cheng of HsingI fame......

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