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#127347 - 01/30/04 11:40 PM Is Do really a spiritual way or a cover up to survive the ban?

Is Do really a spiritual way or a cover up to survive the ban?

Do you think the katas store the banned part of the arts?

#127348 - 02/02/04 12:30 AM Re: Is Do really a spiritual way or a cover up to survive the ban?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Do is in my opinion a 'way'. A road to follow on a journey. Do can be spiritual or in some cases just may reflect a Familys art or approach to an art. Many call this a Ryu(family style) but it all has to do with the approach you take to what you do. DO, I think is a bit more than just spiritual, it encases culture of the art, a philosophy and a doctrine(or code of ethics)which is why I don't think certain arts are Do, because they have not got all elements to the art. Yet many Phillipino arts are Do, but lack the spiritual side but do include a cultural side. So it depends on how you look at things.
The question of banned techniques or Hiden Waza(non verbal techniques)is greatly discussed. Some say they don't exist, some say they are hidden in kata. Others say its the teacher themselves that withold information.This has become a very popular believe especially in the Okinawan Karate arena. Many feel this is the explaination of why there are so many variations of kata, that the Okinawan Sensei's didn't want to share all their knowledge to an occupation force. It is even believed that many Okinawan Sensei's taught wrong on purpose, and that is how we see so many variations and explainations of kata movement. There are others that will argue the hidden techniques are in the techniques, you just need to find them. I personally think it depends on the instructor and how he shares information. I see more and more that Sensei's share more with those who seek information, and less with those who just want to learn syllabus and get their rank. I have been told "to study your kata" and you will find the answers. Others have said there is nothing hidden just Instructors who are selfish and don't want better students than themselves, and don't share all their information. Others say they only give students information to those who are ready to accept it.I know in several cases I wasn't prepared for the information that I was given and had to grow into it. My personal belief is there are certain "connections" that link information and in these connections may lie the 'secret' techniques or as I think, applications of these techniques. As an example look at the link between Aiki-Jujutsu and Aikido and study the link you may find a variation or application that you won't be taught. You also may find a link between the philosophy of an art, and its techniques. An example here is if its a dislocation or breaking art, if that is the intent of the art, then when you see the technique, try to find the break in every technique. So there are many approaches to this. I know that Instructors do keep information, and some do teach things to some and not to others. This is where the banned techniques, or the explaination lie. I had an Okinawan Master tell me to do kata like Tai Chi and I would find many answers. This went totally against how I was taught to do kata, as I was always taught to fight in my kata. Now someone tells me to soften it up and pay attention to each move, and the retracting move as well. I found a whole new interpretation of kata. I was also told by another Okinawan Master to do kata in reverse order, from back to front. His logic was this, if the techniques came first, and then put into kata, then doing it in reverse you may find some techniques this way. This is true. So the information that everyone thinks is banned hidden or secret, may be right in front of you, you just have to find it.

#127349 - 02/02/04 03:30 PM Re: Is Do really a spiritual way or a cover up to survive the ban?

Yes but what I am getting at isn't Do a way of hidding the make the art more acceptable. This journey thing to me was just cover story to make it pass under the eyes of the then Japanese gov't.

#127350 - 02/03/04 09:28 AM Re: Is Do really a spiritual way or a cover up to survive the ban?
Joe Jutsu Offline

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shotokan:
Yes but what I am getting at isn't Do a way of hidding the make the art more acceptable. This journey thing to me was just cover story to make it pass under the eyes of the then Japanese gov't.[/QUOTE]

I don't know.... it's all in how you apply the technique I suppose. Some aikido is very hard, other schools are very soft. The techniques are really the same, but there emphasis and application are different. I think that the lines can also become pretty blurry between some aikido and aikijujutsu. But to get to your question shotokan, I don't really agree. Jujutsu, daito ryu, etc. still survive despite the ban, but they are considerably smaller than say judo. But to an extent I guess I sort of agree. I've found that if I look at the dojo techniques in my style of aikido really hard and in-depth, other applications do become apparent.

Hmmm... good question it's got me thinkin'.


#127351 - 02/17/04 02:11 AM Re: Is Do really a spiritual way or a cover up to survive the ban?
Cato Offline

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Well, I've been away long enough. Time to stir up the waters again [IMG][/IMG]

I would say that "DO" is a very different animal to Jutsu. Obviously one is derived from the other but that doesn't mean the two things are the same. DO was, and is, a way to make something constructive out of something destructive. The technicalities in a DO art are more important than the result, in a jutsu art the converse is true.

The point of a DO art is to struggle with techniques that are difficult to perform, the point being that you emerge a better person for having persevered, not for having mastered the technique. Any fool can learn to fight, Jutsu isn't character building in the way a DO art is.

DO arts weren't simply introduced to fool the authorities into believing anything about MA's because the authorities were themselves trained in them!! The Samurai class became the administrators of the post fuedal era. Samurai ryuha found themselves with a problem, no-one had any need for their fighting skills any more. The sword had given way to firearms and modern western weapons so completely that the MA's had almost overnight become anachronistic. So, in the best traditions of business, the Classical MA's evolved and became something else, something people wanted.



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