FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 25 Guests and 2 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
BUJU, Pilsungkarate, ALF, old1, Leonar
22928 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Ronin1966 3
futsaowingchun 2
ergees 2
GojuRyuboy13 2
AndyLA 1
October
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
New Topics
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
10/25/14 04:53 PM
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
09/25/14 08:50 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by Leo_E_49
01/24/12 02:58 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by
05/13/07 08:02 AM
Recent Posts
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/29/14 10:01 PM
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
10/25/14 04:53 PM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
10/22/14 07:20 AM
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by swordy
10/11/14 09:21 AM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ronin1966
10/08/14 09:22 PM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by AndyLA
10/04/14 10:20 AM
Forum Stats
22928 Members
36 Forums
35584 Topics
432513 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#127324 - 01/29/04 02:05 PM Keri waza
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
How often in your club or dojo do you practice keri waza (kicking techniques). Do you view this as an important part of the aikido curriculum, or secondary to attacks with the hands?

Your comments are appreciated as always.

Joe

Top
#127325 - 01/30/04 12:40 AM Re: Keri waza
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Hi Joe, well here is an ambiguous answer. I have never seen kicks in an Aiki curriculum, though I have seen some Aiki practioners practice kicking techniques. Remember that the fingers are the same as toes, ankles and wrists, knees and elbows, hips and shoulders. So any Aiki technique can be done on the leg. Ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo and especially shihonage can be done with kicks. Kobayashi Sensei uses kicks in his randori, and I have seen Segal Sensei bypass the leg(downward pari) and go into an irminage. I have also seen quite a few Aiki schools that suppliment their training in Shotokan Karate. that way they learn to kick and defend kicks, learn different strikes to defend against, such as ridge hands. However, most of the schools that I have seen keep the 2 curriculum separate. My problem with that is when you are in an confrontation how do you decide which art to use. I believe you can keep them separate, teach the basics of each separately but at some point need to blend the two together.I know alot of people don't agree with me here. But I have seen just Aiki practioners who don't know how to kick, and the nage doesn't get a real kick to work with. The kick is usually slower than a karateka and not as much power. Training with real kickers is much different. Its hard to catch kicks especially if they multiple kicking techniques. So I believe it is very important to have Geri Waza and work them regularly. Just a note, in my old Aikido school I never got to learn Kick defense because no one in the school knew how to kick properly, and I had a Karate background so I was uke for everyone, and did alot of kicking but no defending. Most students who hadn't studied Karate couldn't get the kicks up high enough to have nage work on them.

Top
#127326 - 01/30/04 11:33 PM Re: Keri waza
Anonymous
Unregistered


Joe Jutsu as a karateka I see kicking secondary to hand strikes...just saying that as someone who specializes in Atemi waza.

Aikido and Karate compliment each other alot...

Top
#127327 - 02/02/04 03:04 PM Re: Keri waza
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
Thanks for your replies.

A shihonage from a kick. OUCH!? I've never seen it, but it sounds pretty cool. I've seen some wicked nikkyo's from sidekicks though, and the whole downward parry into irimi nage always at least looks pretty sweet.

My rant: I wish that aikidoka were taught to properly kick. They're not in my school. We spend lots of time trying to improve our hand strikes, mostly through weapons training, but never really any time is spent on learning how to properly kick, which to me seems a fundamental part of martial arts even if your art may not rely on them in a defense situation, like aikido. I suppose sometime I will have to look into crosstraining to balance things out a bit, which for several reasons I've been reluctant to do. But while watching the tae kwon do club practicing before our club, I'm admittedly sort of get jealous, well, mostly because of their numbers, but those guys and gals can kick pretty high, I certainly cannot, but I would LOVE to practice kick defense against a kicker. I have one friend in the club, but he really doesn't have any ukemi skills and I would hate to drop him on the back of his head, assuming of course that I would be actually able to apply the lessons that I've been taught, even if we were practicing on a mat. Maybe one of these days it'll all come together.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Joe

Top
#127328 - 02/06/04 09:44 AM Re: Keri waza
dazzler2 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 148
Loc: england
Hi

We dont practice kicking at all apart from occasionally using a front snap kick as a distraction.

I've seen a few creep in on a secondary level. For instance on kotagaeshi from a safe position to the side, we might slip in a sweep kick to take ukes front leg out.

Similarly from shihonage or tenchi-nage its common practice to use a hooking kick to ukes achilles if we are in the mood.

I've also related 1st ken awase to kicks ...partner cuts with men-uchi, tori moves off line in synchronisation to avoid strike and respons with menuchi themselves Against a kick this would similarly involve tai sabaki and a kick to the kicker exposed groin.

Generally though they are not a particulary important part of our curriculum and tend to be grouped with atemi ...so we just use them where an opportunity arises.

I think the reason for this is that we perhaps focus more on retaining a solid foothold and contact with the ground.

And its not so easy in a hakama!

Cheers

D

Top
#127329 - 02/17/04 02:19 AM Re: Keri waza
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I personally don't see the need for practising kicks, either to attack or to learn defences to, in an aikido dojo. Aikido is not about specific defences to specific attacks, it is about principles of defence to any attack.

Why waste my training time first learning to fight like a kicker and then learning to defend against one when I could, and perhaps should, be learning aikido? If I learn my aikido properly I will already have the aikido skills with which to defend against a kick. If I learn other defences outside of my aikido techniques then clearly I'm not doing aikido any more, and may as well pack myself off to my nearest McDojo inc. instead and learn a little about lots of MA's rather than stay where I am and learn a lot about one MA.

Budo

Top
#127330 - 02/17/04 09:20 AM Re: Keri waza
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
Cato-

Hello again, hope you've been well. So are you saying that kicking techniques aren't a part of your aikido curriculum at all? Are you in an affiliated dojo (ASU, Aikikai, etc) I posed the question of this thread because kicking techniques are on my next rank test, and in class I thought that alot of my sempai were looking kind of weak in the area. But if aikido ultimately teaches relaxation and flexibility to a situation, how does practicing kicking and kick defence lower the status of a dojo to a "McDojo"? If the technique illustrates and uses the principles of aikido, whether the attack is with a fist, foot, or baseball bat, isn't that still aikido?

Joe

[This message has been edited by Joe Jutsu (edited 02-17-2004).]

Top
#127331 - 02/17/04 11:56 PM Re: Keri waza
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I think that Cato's remarks are why Aikido has the reputation it has among the other arts. This elitist attitude that all you need is Aiki and if you add anything, then its a McDojo are why other artists from other arts don't like training with Aikidoka or view them the way the do. Just because one learns another art, doesn't denegrate them to sub-standard training. It in fact enhances it. Everything old is new again. So while Cato takes shots at the McDojos of the world, look what O'Sensei did himself, not to mention other great founders. Ueshiba Sensei added kendo(Kenjutsu) to his Aikijujutsu curiculum as it was taught separtely when he trained with Takeda. The shuburi's done in Aikido are pieces taken from kenjustsu and then applied empty hands to this. If you notice as well, some Aikido throws were taken from Judo which O'Sensei studied as a young man as well.Aikido itself is a hybrid, so how can one turn their nose up at others who combined knowledge. There is also evidence of Ueshiba Sensei adding Chin Na techniques from the time he was inprisoned in northern Manchuria. I think its unfair to make statements that a martial artists can only learn one art. How many nights do they train? How long. I train 6 days a week, 3 hours a day on the minimum and when I attend class I train 6 hours. I have plenty of time to compliment my art with other aspects of other arts. Also, I have seen Aikido Black Belts who once they reach a certain level never improve. For the most part in the states, you can see Aikido students just glide once they have attained a shodan or Nidan. Most Aikidoka I have met do not accent what they do, and stay in a rut of doing the same thing over and over, and get laxed at their own technique, many burning themselves out. So to say those who add something to their Aikido is McDojo, tell that to Dr. Moses Powell, and tell him he is McDojo for adding Jujutsu, Arnis, and pressure pointing to his Aikido. His art of Sanuces Ryu is a top style in this country and its the sum of all his training and knowledge. I sure wouldn't want to be the one to tell him he's got a McDojo. You may find yourself at the McHospital!!!!

Top
#127332 - 02/18/04 03:55 AM Re: Keri waza
dazzler2 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 148
Loc: england
Well said Lou..that made me McLaugh!

Am reading Bruce Lee Tao of Jeet Kune Do at the moment. He stresses that JKD is a philosophy not a fixed style.

Aiki surely is the same. You need to experience other arts to learn how to apply them. Sitting in an ivory tower and expecting that your aikido base will magically save you in time of need is a risky business.

No matter how sharp your sword is - it will rust if you don't use it!

McCheers
McD

Top
#127333 - 02/18/04 10:24 AM Re: Keri waza
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Hello again Joe. I've been very well thank you, I just got bored of the board for a while if you see what I mean. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] Happily ,I see it is still a place where I can be the lone dissenting voice, and I know how much any differing opinion is valued here... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

There are no kicks in my school's aikido syllabus. I learn aiki-budo, which is an early, pre-war style of O'sensei's art and perhaps that accounts for the lack of kicking. If your style of aikido has kicking of course that doesn't reduce it to McDojo status, I was merely trying (Obviously very badly) to make the point that, in my experience, Mcdojo's tend to teach a multitude of techniques borrowed from any number of arts, and their knowledge of those arts is questionable. I have never been in an aikido dojo that teaches kicking as part of its syllabus, which just goes to show that as a dan graded aikidoka I still know only a little little of my one art. God knows how I could hope to learn several!!!

I also think that learning an art in full is the only way to learn it properly, and a mish mash of techniques taken from a range of arts is a seriously flawed policy. I would then add that having learnt an art, any art, in full the need to go and learn ten more is no longer present. If I want to learn to fight I should go to a bar and start brawling. If I want to learn a MA I should learn it properly. Apparently that makes me "elitist" [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Lou, my friend. Good to see you haven't changed at all. Why do assume that an elitist attitude is the sole preserve of aikidoka? I would suggest you look a little closer to home, mate.

I defy anyone to become truly a master of more than one martial art. For all that I respect O'sensei's rather exceptional ability as a martial artist, he was never considered a master of aiki jutsu by Takeda sensei, nor a master of Judo by Kano sensei. If he couldn't do it, I'm damn sure most of the rest of us can't either. That said, if you want to try then go ahead, I wont try to stop you because I don't care how you train, it is unimportant to me. However I will have my opinion just as you have yours. If my having an opinion makes me "elitist" what does yours make you? You deny my experience because it doesn't fit with yours...want to borrow a dictionary?

Once again you confuse someone who happens to be a very good fighter with someone who studies a martial art. I know several people who kick ass big time and have never studied any art in their life. If they codified their "style" and gave it a fancy martial artsy type name would they be martial arts "masters" as well? Made me Mclaugh to, but I suspect for different reasons [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Dazzler, sorry - didn't quite get your point. You most certainly do need to experience other arts if you want to apply them, which is precisely why I don't apply them. Mcsimple as that.

I agree that aiki is a philosophy but I don't see where that fits with learning or not learning karate alongside it. Whatever way you look at it, O'sensei designed a syllabus for his art, go outside that syllabus and you go outside his art. I happen to believe O'sensei was right.

I hope my sword doesn't get too rusty - that sounds painfull [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Budo

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Fight Videos
Night club fight footage and street fights captured with the world's first bouncer spy cam

How to Matrix!
Learn ten times faster with new training method. Learn entire arts for as little as $10 per disk.

Self Defense
Stun guns, pepper spray, Mace and self defense products. Alarms for personal and home use.

TASER MC26C
Stop An Urban Gorilla: Get 2 FREE TASER M26C Replacement Air Cartridges With Each New TASER M26C!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga