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#127144 - 11/11/03 07:42 AM Fighting spirit
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Can aikido really engender any kind of fighting spirit in its practitioners when it has no competitive elements?? Arts such as karate, ones that have sparring, are obviously about winning in a fight. Aikido seems to lack this element. Does that matter?

Budo

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#127145 - 11/11/03 07:55 AM Re: Fighting spirit
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
Alright, I don't know who you are but I think it is unfair to use Cato's computer without his knowledge-- he never would have said that. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

What is fighting spirit? For me, it is the ability to focus your will to accomplish your aim, no matter what else might be happening to or around you. If you buy that definition, does aikido practice not improve one's ability to focus?

I'll fall back on the standard answer: It depends on how you practice it.

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#127146 - 11/11/03 10:12 AM Re: Fighting spirit
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
another cato impostor?????? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
is your randori not the equivelant of karate's kumite?? or free practice?
my answer would be yes any art can develope a fighting spirit.

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#127147 - 11/11/03 03:12 PM Re: Fighting spirit
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
In my school it is taught that we are striving for a universal spirit or mind, because, without getting off on a long philisophical debate, there is no conflict in the absolute universe but there is conflict in the relative world, and having a fighting mind is in dessension with the absolute universe. As Tohei sensei wrote in his ki sayings "to walk the ways of the universe is the ultimate purpose of my study."

I guess that's pretty esoteric, I'll try not to let it happen again. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Joe

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#127148 - 11/12/03 03:34 AM Re: Fighting spirit
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
See, lads, just when you think you know someone.... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

By it's very nature aikido teaches passivity rather than aggression. Everything about aikido screams de-escalation and the avoidance of pre-emptive force. That must cause a conflict when it comes to fighting, where the need for pro-active action often outweighs the benefits of remaining passive.

An aikidoka will prefer to avoid a confrontation rather than accept a challenge to fight. Whilst there is a lot of humility in doing so, there is a fine line between humility and a lack of self respect which often seems to be an attendant problem with aikido. How can aikidoka be passive and re-active whilst at the same time having any self esteem? If I insult a karateka I'm likely to get a punch on the nose, yet an aikidoka will most probably walk away. Where's the fighting spirit in that?

Budo

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#127149 - 11/12/03 03:53 AM Re: Fighting spirit
dazzler Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 296
Loc: England
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
See, lads, just when you think you know someone.... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

By it's very nature aikido teaches passivity rather than aggression. Everything about aikido screams de-escalation and the avoidance of pre-emptive force. That must cause a conflict when it comes to fighting, where the need for pro-active action often outweighs the benefits of remaining passive.

An aikidoka will prefer to avoid a confrontation rather than accept a challenge to fight. Whilst there is a lot of humility in doing so, there is a fine line between humility and a lack of self respect which often seems to be an attendant problem with aikido. How can aikidoka be passive and re-active whilst at the same time having any self esteem? If I insult a karateka I'm likely to get a punch on the nose, yet an aikidoka will most probably walk away. Where's the fighting spirit in that?

Budo
[/QUOTE]

The fighting spirit is when they walk off to fetch their katana!!

I'll suggest the value of Aikido has been shown here.

Why are these insults being thrown? Obviously to provoke...so the provoker is ready and up for it...to get embroiled in a meaningless fight over 'insults' is just a waste of time.

If there are real reasons to fight then an Aikidoka will do it on their own terms.

D

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#127150 - 11/12/03 12:00 PM Re: Fighting spirit
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
Cato,

I remember having some good discussions with you (and others) about this when I first signed on. At the time, you were the one who cautioned me against too much passivity-- and I think I have come to understand what you were getting at, maybe even taken it a little too far.

I think where the fighting spirit comes in is when you realize that an aikidoka will not let another impose his will on him. His attempts to do so will invariably be turned against him.

That, to me, is the essence of "fighting spirit", the idea that one will never give up. It really doesn't require aggressiveness so much as assertiveness. Does that make any sense?

When a person insults you, he is hoping to draw you into something. If you do not allow that to happen, his intentions go unrealized. That is fighting spirit in action, even without a fight-- you have used your strength and force of will to prevent someone else from forcing your hand.

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#127151 - 11/12/03 04:36 PM Re: Fighting spirit
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
to fight with another is wrong but to lose a fight with another over principles you deem honourable is worse. to fight well is as proper as being able to study correctly or walk properly. by learning to fight, you are actually educating yourself to avoid battle. keiji tomiyama (tani-ha shito ryu karate)
every art should stress that fighting is the last resort, and most of them do.
my sensei said to me once you cant rip someones arm off just because he called you an asshole (read between the lines)
he also said be nice until its time to not be nice anymore
i think all martial arts teach people to avoid conflict if possible, if not they certainly should!
i think fighting spirit is simply that when the sh*t hits the fan you will fight, and fight HARD defending those principles you deem honourable.
look at okinawans defending their homes from japanese soldiers, look at the filipino people's will to fight when you try to take over their lands, look at the fighting spirit of viet nam...THAT IS FIGHTING SPIRIT!!! (to me anyway)

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#127152 - 11/13/03 03:24 AM Re: Fighting spirit
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Okay, so we've established what fighting spirit is, or at least could be. But how does training in aikido develop it? We all have an inherent level of fight within us, we are after all studying an art of fighting, but does training in aikido do anything to increase our fighting spirit? Or, indeed, does it actually reduce it?

I'm not talking about determination, perseverance or anything like that. I mean specifically our willingness to fight and our preparedness to do so. Most aikidoka I meet will say that since they started training they are less likely to be involved in a fight than they were before they began aikido. I have no doubt that that was O'sensei's intention and he would be very glad to hear them say it, but it doesn't show a lot of fighting spirit, does it?

Budo

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#127153 - 11/13/03 07:55 AM Re: Fighting spirit
dazzler Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 296
Loc: England
In answer to first post: no it doesnt matter to me.

In answer to your most recent: who cares?

You seem fixated upon competition and fighting without consideration of reasoning behind - maybe aikido is not for you ?

D

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