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#127090 - 11/04/03 06:23 AM Practicality?
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
How far does an art have to be practical to be of any use? Aikido is often critised by non aikidoka for being too difficult to use in a real situation. Would anyone agree with that?

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#127091 - 11/04/03 08:31 AM Re: Practicality?
dazzler Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 296
Loc: England
I'm sure lots of people would agree with that.

I dont!!

If your mindset is such that you try and apply an 'Aikido technique' when practicality is required then you might well be shafted.

But if you practice Aikido to develop a martial base then translation into something simple and effective is not so hard.

For example ...someone tries to hit you. Get out of the way. Hit them.

Cheers

D

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#127092 - 11/04/03 08:36 AM Re: Practicality?
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
Cato,

Perhaps I am reading your question to be much more general than you intended, but when you say "to be of any use", then I think an art doesn't have to be practical (from a combat point of view) at all to be useful.

There are numerous benefits to training that have nothing to do with combat, although these same benefits might help one fare better in combat than an untrained person would.

For example, aikido develops coordination, relaxation, and concentration. These traits can benefit a person in all aspects of his or her life.

It's hard to make blanket statements about the combat efficacy of aikido, because there are so many different expressions of the art around. I think the combat aspects are definitely in there, as these are the origins of the art. I also think that a large number of people who study aikido fail to grasp the combat essence. But that's OK, as far as I am concerned, because they still get all kinds of other benefits from training.

These other aspects help us all day every day, and also help to reduce the likelihood that we will ever need the combat aspects.

I think this is only a problem when an aikidoka has unrealistic expectations about his or her combat ability. I won't speculate on how often this happens, though.

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#127093 - 11/04/03 09:44 AM Re: Practicality?
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Cato, I actually went to a Bujinkan Taijutsu seminar over the past weekend and it was great. A lot of the techniques they were doing reminded me of the Yoshinkan Aikido I practiced at Temple. They were teaching technique after technique and I was starting to mix up one with the other...but what I was doing was still working. The instructor explained to me that what I was doing was exactly right...because it was still using the principles effectively and the locks I was getting on were working. I think Aikido is meant to be the same way. You guys may know a million techniques, but it's not like only one technique works against one attack...many different techniques work against many different attacks: it's all about using the principles of your art.

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#127094 - 11/04/03 09:50 AM Re: Practicality?
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
I think that when people see a long, dojo version of a throw that they may get the wrong impression of aikido. One of my sensei was just talking the other day how it is easier to teach someone to shorten up a technique than it is to lengthen the technique. So this leads me to the conclusion that what we learn in the dojo are principles, and that is what would always work in a combat situation (assuming one could adhere to those principles).

I attended a seminar with Koichi Kashiwaya Sensei (8th dan Ki Society) about a month ago. The seminar was attended by aikidoka of several different styles, which I thought was really cool. But apart from how our techniques differed, what I really took away from the seminar was the fact that the principles are what Tohei Sensei at least is trying to teach us. Kashiwaya joked that if we want to be combat effective all the time, we should glue sandpaper to the upper arms of our gi's for kokyunage's, to make sure uke never slips away.

He also placed alot of emphasis on atemi, to my surprise. He was stressing making a fist with the middle knuckle slightly sticking out for atemi to the ribs, most applicable in shihonage I think. The knuckle is supposed to go inbetween the ribs, which makes it more painful for uke but safer too because the knuckle collapses, and makes it less likely that you would break uke's rib.

Ahh, but I digress.

Joe.

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#127095 - 11/05/03 12:36 AM Re: Practicality?
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
if it works, it works.
i dont practice aikido, but have met those who did, and have seen the way they practice, i dont think it's for me but if it works for you, do it.
i'd like to see more striking personally. and more realistic attacks, maybe different "scenario" training..like being jumped from behind, even on the ground...work on ways to get back up to your feet etc.
do you ever practice what to do when you miss your throw? or dont get the lock or pin the way youre supposed to?

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#127096 - 11/05/03 03:34 AM Re: Practicality?
dazzler Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 296
Loc: England
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kempo_jujitsu:
if it works, it works.
i dont practice aikido, but have met those who did, and have seen the way they practice, i dont think it's for me but if it works for you, do it.
i'd like to see more striking personally. and more realistic attacks, maybe different "scenario" training..like being jumped from behind, even on the ground...work on ways to get back up to your feet etc.
do you ever practice what to do when you miss your throw? or dont get the lock or pin the way youre supposed to?
[/QUOTE]

I suspect what you'd like to see is Kempo Ju-Jitsu!

Aikido is by definition a merger of man and ki within the principles of the Tao.

It is manifested through techniques and these techniques are merely tools to express the principles of Aikido (not Aiki...I believe this is not the same thing).

These principles are Kamae , Maai, Shisei, kokyo ho , kokyuho-rokyuho, irimi, atemi, omote and ura to name most of them...

In Aikido there are 4 levels of practice.

Kotai - the solid foundation
Jutai - flowing supple moves
Ki tai - the level of the 'experts' - movement infused with ki
Eki tai - Beyond ki - the level of a master eg O'Sensei - moving and controlling without effort...

Most Aikido people dont get past level 1 - Also this is what people that have seen Aikido base their misguided judgments on.

More striking ?...Fine Aikidoka can hit...Its usually not emphasised because when you hit someone hard they tend to disappear...you certainly wont get the chance to complete your move and therefore lose the opportunity to learn from it. ...

Look at first awase - sword blending. In essence its the same as a counter punch...uke attacks and you get off line and respond..

As long as your focus is on the bases of Aikido you can practice any attacks...who says Aikidoka don't practice scenario training or 'real' attacks? Have you seen every dojo ..every instructor ? no you havent. Nuff said.

Work on ways to get back up to your feet?? no we just lie there like muppets. Of course we do but not all the time. If some 6th kyu is trying to learn a pin then they don't need some slippery sandan jumping up and stopping them learning..

do you ever practice what to do when you miss your throw? or dont get the lock or pin the way youre supposed to? No we always get it exactly right and even if our partners get it wrong we tap out a tune for them...

Get real...I've always been taught that if plan A goes wrong move onto plan B. As for locks and pins...fine they are all good stuff but if they aren't working just because we have Aikidoka on our foreheads does,nt prevent us from following up with strikes.

I believe that fact that Aikido is practiced with control - self control then control of uke leads many people to underrate it and those that practice it.

I'll agree that it isn't out and out ring fighting..that is a whole arena in itself but that doesn't detract from the value of Aikido one jot.

Aikido is what it is - you accept this or not.

D

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#127097 - 11/05/03 04:56 AM Re: Practicality?
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Dazzler - superb. Only I wish I'd said it. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Budo

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#127098 - 11/06/03 03:00 AM Re: Practicality?
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
geez..calm down.
if your 6th kyu is learning a pin...then that is what you are focused on...therefore that is not the time to practice getting out of the pin. common sense man.
i said it was probably not my thing...i didnt say it doesnt work.
every time i ask a question to one of you aikidoka you think i am dissin ur art. im just gonna stop asking questions.
a simple YES OR NO would have been sufficient.
have a nice day.

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#127099 - 11/06/03 04:17 AM Re: Practicality?
dazzler Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 296
Loc: England
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kempo_jujitsu:
geez..calm down.
if your 6th kyu is learning a pin...then that is what you are focused on...therefore that is not the time to practice getting out of the pin. common sense man.
i said it was probably not my thing...i didnt say it doesnt work.
every time i ask a question to one of you aikidoka you think i am dissin ur art. im just gonna stop asking questions.
a simple YES OR NO would have been sufficient.
have a nice day.
[/QUOTE]

Now KJ, dont you worry too much about my strong response...you might have had the balls to pose the questions but I'm sure there are hundres of readers that that get confused by the same things.

So my answer was for them as well as you - this is a great forum with lots of ideas and questions and answers from all sorts of level of people...

I see lots of misunderstandings about aikido and posts like yours give me a chance to address them from my view...may not be everyones but may encourage people to think or get a response that makes me think...either way everyone thats open gets to learn.

Didn't mean to crush your questioning spirit!!

And Yes or No would have been a bit boring!!

Cheers

D

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