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#126976 - 11/12/04 10:13 AM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Rob,

On the learning mode versus practice mode, these are the terms we use, not to imply that we ever stop learning or stop practicing but an indication of the degree of freedom we (nage and uke) have.

Learning mode would be working on a specific technique or set of principles usually from a given attack. Maybe today we are working on nikkyo from a lapel grab and in particular staying connected to the uke throughout the structural lock. In this case the nage knows the attack and the uke knows what is going to happen. If nage is having difficulty maintaining the structural lock (nikkyo) they will try different angles and directions until they find it, maybe with some help from the uke. In this cas uke isn't going to retract their hand and reattack.

However, maybe at the end of class my partner and I will "workout" which means uke choses the attack, timing, tempo etc and nage is not restricted to one path. If the nikkyo doesn't come on the uke is going to retract that hand and reattack while the nage may give up the nikkyo and use atemi, a lower body lock, enter to break balance or tenkan out to create distance....

I hope that makes sense. I also hope that I'm still learning when I "workout" and that my learning is still practice!

Chris

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#126977 - 11/13/04 12:39 AM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
So I guess the question is how do you (everyone reading this) train to translate that smooth and easy stretch/pin, into something that you would use in a dark parking structure at 11pm?

I think you know what I am going to say Chris, but I will say it and let everyone have a shot at good ole Senseilou.

To answer the question I don't. All our pins are predicated on doing some damage, minor damage to sprain or hyper-extend muscles to major breaking bones. As Chris will attest to, we use many pins from many styles, but they all have one thing in common, PAIN!!
I understand why people train the way they do, but I feel, especially when it comes to pins, they need to be brutal. The 'finish' of the technique is the last straw. If you mess up your entry and are not in position you can make up for that or adapt, same is true for your technique. If you are not right on, and you don't get the desired effect fron your attacker, you can compensate. But when it gets to the finish, you really don't have time to screw around, as one minor mistake and your attacker is right back on you, which is why I don't like throws, or rather projections(unless into a wall or on top of a car hood)because if they know how to land, they can be back in a moment. The response I always hear here is that the fall should do the damage and most people don't know how to take the fall. this is probably true, but I don't want to stake my body or my life that they don't know, I'd rather control them with a takedown. The definiton between throw and takedown is the throw is let go, and projects them. I don't buy into the breakfall thing at all. Most people can't chew come and walk much less breakfall. That is an escape mechanism anyway. So I feel you need total control, and letting them stretch out is not in my book. I put them where I want them and apply what we call a pain compliance None of our pins are just to hold down they all hurt and can cause breaks. Remember a break is a lock continued, and when dealing with the elbow it doesn't take alot.

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#126978 - 11/15/04 08:00 AM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
Anonymous
Unregistered


If the crazy beer bottle attacker wants to attack me, I'd definately move until they committed to an attack that I could use a basic technique on. I'm not sure I need to pin this person on the ground, but if I did, they would end up stretched out and as balanced on the floor as possible. They would not get up while we talked about why they were trying to hit me with the bottle in the first place unless someone else was coming to join the party. If it stayed just the two of us and it didn't look like things were going to resolve themselves (like waiting for crazy bottle guy's medication to kick in) I might just try to tie that person up with the belt of my pants.

This thread is called "after the pin or lock" but I think the anwer lies "before the pin or lock". I put the majority of the pin on the person while they are still up contributing to the overall movement. Then they hit the floor and no longer have anywhere to go to lesson the torque so we call them pinned. When I'm stretching someone out, they are more than welcome to try to get up!!! But the idea is to do minimum harm.

Ideally they should be immediately controlled the moment you touch them - which we are all still working on.

You also have to consider that you need to be able to immediately be able to let go and defend another attacker.

Don't get me wrong, I'm okay with a reasonable amount of pain. I think you draw the line at torture. If you hold someone down and slowly rip their shoulder off then that's torture and you have a big ego problem and are probably mentally imbalanced.

I think that this goes to the core issue of where do you feel safe? How at peace with yourself are you? How refined is your movement? Do you need to run to a room and lock the doors to feel safe from someone that wants to hit me with a beer bottle? If you wouldn't feel just as safe standing in an open field with the crazy bottle guy, I think your aikido needs a lot more practice (mine does!).

Rob

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#126979 - 11/15/04 09:03 AM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Rob,

I really like this part of your post:

"This thread is called "after the pin or lock" but I think the anwer lies "before the pin or lock". I put the majority of the pin on the person while they are still up contributing to the overall movement. Then they hit the floor and no longer have anywhere to go to lesson the torque so we call them pinned"

And

"Ideally they should be immediately controlled the moment you touch them - which we are all still working on."


This is a concept that I've been taught and I've worked on many times but I tend to forget. Thanks for reminding me!

Chris

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#126980 - 11/15/04 11:45 AM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I know I keep coming off like Atilla the Hun, but this mindset I think is very dangerous. You can talk to someone all you want, but if he came out you with a broken bottle, hes not going to turn passive out of the blue. I had this same problem at the school I attended , all talk, no action. There is a saying, "talk doesn't cook the rice". In controlling an attacker it takes pain to neutralize the the person. How many times as a kid to you do something to the kid and tell him to say "Uncle or I quit" only to have him come back at you. One of our instructors tried to talk a woman out of shop lifting, and did every technique he knew and could not subdue her. The reason is you practice like you play, and if you don't have the mind set to neutralize, they have no reason not to come back again. I know also that the more you move away from an attacker you are adding to his momentum, and strength. You must disipate your attackers energy or destroy hs attack. Sen No Sen, attack the attack.

I hate to come across like this all the time, but you reason with reasonable people. In a parking lot, with a person with a bottle, is not a resonable person, to reason with him, is ludicrous. I know Aikido is about harmony, but that works in the dojo. Sorry to say, if a person is desperate enough to come at you once, he will come again.

Here is a little story for you. I had a student who's father had trained in Aikido and felt he was further along then he was. He was constantly telling me how to teach, what I should teach, and the approach to teach. I had this for about a year, and just shrugged it off. I was at a festival and met an old friend and he told me he was sorry I lost my dojo. I looked at him like he was nuts and asked him what he was talking about, I still had my dojo. He told me this father had told him I lost the dojo and was out of the arts. Nonsense was my reply. Saw another teacher and he asked what was the real story about my dojo. I answered "what story. That father told him I was arrested for 'child abuse' in my classes, and lost all my students, and dojo. I was furious, this was my reputation at stake. When I saw the father again, I asked him what his problem was and he denied everything and started to talk to me and analyze my mean streak. He tried talking to me about the tennets of O'Sensei and the philosphy of AIkido, and though he knew I was mad, it was a boulder I had to get over. I agreed with him then hit him right in the mouth is hard as I could. Moral of the story is this, if someone is hell bent on attacking you, the talk stops, and the attack must be nuetralized AND a lesson taught or they will continue to attack.

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#126981 - 11/15/04 09:31 PM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
Anonymous
Unregistered


You should contantly get yourself into the position where you can do maximum damage to the attacker and then from that position choose to do the minimum ammount of damage to them to keep yourself safe. This is the only way aikido has any chance of working.

In certain situations, the minimum damage you need to do to stay safe might just also happen to be maximum damage. However, I think it is just as important to know what you are choosing not to do as it is constantly making the choice to do minimal damage.

I still say my pins work well enough by stretching. If I need to break something, it doesn't require a whole lot of practice and/or an engineering degree to figure out how to destroy a body part that has been stretched and immobalized.

You become the mind you train. If you train to hurt people then that is going to be your response when pressed. If you train to do minimal damage, then that's what you are going to do.

I agree that a crazy attacker isn't going to be talked down - but I have been immobalized without pain and I have also seen a lot of the craziness leave an attacker when their balance gets taken from them - they find themselve volnerable and then NOT taken further advantage of. It really depends on the threat level - which has a lot to do with your depth in understanding and ability and also the craziness / toughness of the attacker...

I certainly agree that it is dangerous to have the attitude that you'll be able to talk yourself out of a situation and have no other choices. I can't and wouldn't want to argue that. I think my main concern is that I would like to raise awareness to the idea that it is also dangerous - possibly more dangerous - to actively train violence in ego gratifying ways that end in triumphant shouts of "block that!" or whatever it was.

It should be that you drop down in levels of sophistication as needed, but if you are not training to at start at minimim damage, then I question if you are really doing aikido. The police have a lot of power, and we require them to exhibit this behavior. We require them to somewhat match the level of violence they use on someone who is attacking them. So if someone yells at a cop, the cop doesn't get to shoot him. Similarly, if someone says the cop looks fat in those pants the cop doesn't get to punch them in the face. As a society, we hold people of power to these kind of standards for a good reason. There is a difference between defending yourself and just satisfying your ego.

I read somewhere (maybe here) that one of the aikido guys felt something like 'in quest to develop the ultimate combat effective art that can be learned in 2 years we are loosing a lot of the value of studying martial arts' or something like that - I can't do it justice. I've been thinking about this because for some reason I liked it, but I disliked it too. I finially realize that the reason is that I think it would be great for everyone to take 2 years and learn that ultimate combat ready defense system and get that out of the way so we can move on to studying valuable daily practices like aikido devoid of the fear of what would happen if...

[This message has been edited by rob_liberti (edited 11-17-2004).]

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#126982 - 03/02/05 01:48 PM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
Anonymous
Unregistered


oopse

[This message has been edited by rob_liberti (edited 03-02-2005).]

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#126983 - 03/02/05 04:05 PM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
Anonymous
Unregistered


So far, no one has mentioned pulling the person up short on the throw or making the projection circle smaller (almost linear/spiral) so that the attacker falls incorrectly. Just thought I'd mention this as another option.

On the topic of the traditional ikkyo/nikkyo pin, they are simply principles of the straight armbar/break and rear-arm entanglement (ura ude gatame) respectively.

My biggest gripe with the "traditional" approach is two-fold:
1. We do not do the multitude of variations to see the myriad configurations and possibilities of the principles in application. We only learn it this (one) way and that's it.

2. We do not take the pin beyond to the next technique and the next, so we never learn the follow-ups and follow thru. Unless you actively practice it, you are relegated to learning this on this fly, and hopefully not in a SD situation!

Since I started learning jujitsu, I am seeing a lot of where the original techniques come from and how it has changed. (Sure it may not be aikijitsu, but O'Sensei also did Kito-Ryu and Shinkage-Ryu, so who's to say that it did not come from there?)

It took me a few weeks to modify my throwing "style" and I've found that I have much better control on my locks and pins, than most of the guys here that have been practising jujitsu for a lot longer than I have. Coming from aikido first and knowing what I (now) know has certainly been a big advantage.

So, it is not necessary to throw out the so-called "traditional" pins. Each of the 1st 5 forms (ikkyo->gokyo) are what's called "mother" techniques. They are simply principles/vehicles for exploring other technical variations. To limit yourself to these as the "be-all-and-end-all" of techniques would be somewhat self-defeating.

And as senseilou says, you have to practice as you play. You have to explore the myriad variations and possibilities, as what is covered in the curriculum of most modern aikido schools is a limited subset of the entire body of knowledge of human movement.

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#126984 - 03/03/05 09:27 AM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
eeyrie,

It's interesting to review this thread with some time having passed. I'll add a couple comments.

As for "making the projection circle smaller", I haven't trained in big circle projections for years. We make that circle as tight as possible and most throws are "straight down" which makes the traditional big rolling ukemi result in a nose-meets-knee type of flop. In fact after working out at another dojo, one of the comments to my sensei and I was "you guys sure like to throw down"... There are only a couple of scenarios where I could imagine throwing someone "out" rather than down.

Secondly, having spend a lot more of my time cross training in the last two years, I tend to react a bit differently after I'm taken down in a lock or throw. Getting back to my very first post on this thread, things aren't over when uke hits the ground, and Im just learning how interesting things really are at that point.

And I still find that most aikido that I've seen lately is trained with the assumption that once uke hits the ground, particularly after a throw, it's done.

Chris

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#126985 - 03/03/05 04:15 PM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Chris,

Couldn't agree more.

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