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#126966 - 09/14/04 03:17 AM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by the504mikey:
Hmmm...

I think most aikido pins as practiced are not "proper holds", but they can be with a little modification.

By proper hold, I mean a hold which has two elements, such that working against one causses the other to come into play. An axample would be locking someone's arm with one hand, and using the other hand to lock the neck. Working against the arm lock adds to the neck lock, and vice versa.

But, like Csinca pointed out earlier in the thread, now that you have him all locked up, what are you going to do with him? I hear the phrase "now we can talk about it" used a lot. I think it's risky to assume you can always talk someone down these days. Many are likely to go to their car and get the gun if you leave them capable of doing so.

This is one reason why I think it is so important to try to shake the urge to "police the world" as a way of validating your training or just helping out. Violence all too often escalates to an extreme these days. My plan is to leave the non-lethal controlling force to the professionals who have an obligation to protect those they arrest, and save mine for drunk uncles at weddings and horsing around with friends. No fights! But I guess we all have to decide where to draw the line ourselves.

[/QUOTE]

To answer the question, "what do you do once you have them in a lock": I was taught and extremely efficient and painful lock which enabled you to free your hands.

Once uke is pinned down on the floor and you are knelt beside him, move his arm up so his wrist is resting on your shoulder. Keep the closet knee just above his shoulder and place your other foot on his forehead. Once you have done this, he can't move and your hands are free to use your mobile phone (cellular if your American) to call the police.

Obviously this should only be used if there are no other dangers.

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#126967 - 09/16/04 03:57 AM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chanters:

Once uke is pinned down on the floor and you are knelt beside him, move his arm up so his wrist is resting on your shoulder. Keep the closet knee just above his shoulder and place your other foot on his forehead. Once you have done this, he can't move and your hands are free to use your mobile phone (cellular if your American) to call the police.

Obviously this should only be used if there are no other dangers.
[/QUOTE]

Sonds a bit like the "Omo Palata" of brazillian jiujitsu.

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#126968 - 10/26/04 01:02 PM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I used to get up from almost everyone's yonkyo. One of the strong sandan uchideshis of the dojo I was visiting in Japan could bring me to the ground, then I'd start to get up and he could bring me to the ground again - but that was the best I'd seen.

Eventually one of my friends explained to me that you have to pin in such a way that their spine is stuck to the floor and showed me - repeatedly. I'm a believer.

When I take nikkyo ukemi, I always maintain the integrity of my arm so that weak-pinners feel they don't have me. Strong pinners generally laugh and pin me anyway. I always take the stretch and then slap no matter what because after-all I don't want them to do a sudden and jerky movement while I'm in that position.

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#126969 - 10/26/04 02:56 PM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Why try to resist to begin with? When I practicce and am in 'practice' mode, (not learning mode), resist me or try and reverse me, I will go the extra mile to inflict pain, and will not release the lock when you tap, as a matter of fact won't release it till I am good and ready, the tap means nothing to me. When you are in learning mode, its not anyone's place to teach a lesson and resist or reverse. If you can't respect the process, and give and take, then I will crank the lock till tears are in your eyes. This behavior drive me nuts.

First its resisting the pin, then the technique. No wonder one can resist the technique or the pin, they know whats coming, so its easy to resist. Its about learning NOT that you can resist or reverse. I had a Sensei who specializes in reversing, and how to stop locks, but you do it in a class when your not suppose to you get nailed. I have seen many students who think they are 'above' the process and resist and try to reverse everything.When they encounter me and I feel the least bit resistance or reversing, I take it to the next level. I study a style that incorporates counter when people try to get up, we actually help them up(go with the flow) lockem again and this time its time for a face plant, since they didn't learn the first time.

At a recent seminar a blue belt informed my son(a Godan) that he was going to resist everything he did to offer some challenge. My son took it easy at first, and then the blue belt pronounced, "thats why I resist to show you black belts your not as good as you think you are".My son, at the next opportunity, not locked him up not once, but 3 different times, applying pain the entire time, took the lock into a choke, did a Koshi from the choke, went into the mount, and choked him out. As my son walked away he said, "resist that"!

If you decide to resist or try to reverse, you should expect to get treated roughly. Its not part of the equation, unless the insrtuctor says to resist or reverse.Alot of people don't like my approach to this, and frankly I don't care, but students do not have the right to resist or reverse another student, while they are trying to lean the technique or pin, unless the Sensei encourages it.

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#126970 - 10/26/04 06:00 PM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Amen to that. Sensei Lou it should be no surprise that I agree with that last post.

If I'm in learning mode with someone that is teaching, I would never dream of trying to "teach them a lesson" for a number of reasons, but not the least of which is if I'm gonna spend the time with someone to learn from them, I expect that they couls hurt me if they put their mind to it.

If I'm just working out with someone, then there has to be some level of trust but then you can build up to the "what ifs" and reversals.

I think alot of it comes down to people without much experience not realizing:

a. their partner is taking it easy in the spirit of training and not hurting anyone

b. quite often they are open to much more than the one technique they think they are reversing.

I still don't understand why someone laying on their stomach at my feet would think that resisting my pin is in any way shape or form teaching me a lesson. I can only imagine they don't understand that their ribs are stretched out and exposed at my feet...

Of course some would say that's not aikido, but that is another story!

Chris

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#126971 - 10/28/04 03:12 PM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Hi Chris, glad to see you back. Here is something else I think you will agree with. For some odd reason, people think that when you have a pin, and someone can get out of the pin, that you still have to apply a lock. I think you will agree if they escape my lock they will walk into a barrage of strikes. Like you said, why would someone on their stomach, fight the pin, when they can't see whats coming next. The "UFC" mentality of ground and pound, has taught people that when you go to the ground, you can strike as well as lock. If you look at Kajukembo, they have what they call "ad libs", once a person is on the ground you go into a 'freestyle' of sorts combining striking, kneeing and kicking. One of my Sensei who dresses extremely well says he spends too much money on clothes to go to the ground and tear them up. He agrees with me, that the attacker needs to be on the ground but not necessarily for us to go down with them. He relies on what he calls a 'shoe job' and once the attacker is down, he gets a good workover with his feet, stomps, kicks etc. Now I realize that this is not the Aiki way, but nonetheless very effective. If someone tried to stand up after I pinned them, why not stomp him like Irish River dancing? When I put someone down now, after hearing Professors philosophy, I have a transiton state, before I apply the lock.
So in answer to the original question, "after the lock", when they go to the ground, they may be struck, followed by a pin, they may be kicked, stomped, followed by a pin, or they may be locked followed by stikes. Professor showed me how to put someone on their back, strike the groin and chin with the back of your hands, drop both knees in their ribs(I put one on the hip and one on shoulder or arm to stop any movement)then wrap the arm -step over and put them on their side or stomach, and now, you decide how much more you want to dish out. Once again I know most Aikidoka will think this excessive, and not very Aiki, I agree, but if people are going to resist or reverse, why not take that away from them before they do. My point in all this rambling, is just because you are locked doesn't mean I still won't unload a barrage of strikes, knees or kicks, if you try to counter.

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#126972 - 10/29/04 12:19 PM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Sensei Lou,

Your last post reminds me of some of the double strikes you use after a throw/takedown!

Just a week ago we were doing some groundwork and the Sensei was showing how you can "loosen up" a position to "encourage" the other person to move, turn, sit up etc... in a direction where they move right into your strikes.

Again, not what most would consider aiki but it fits with my philosophy.

Chris

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#126973 - 11/11/04 03:10 PM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't know about this practice mode versus learning mode, or any other mode. It sounds interesting. There is learning and assimulation but I generally find time to do whichever I need without needing my partner(s) to be in the same mode with me.

I try to take ukemi in such a way that I protect myself as best as I can while maintaining the attack. I always give up balance for the sake of safety. I always try to put my our body weight right where the nage is going. I always try to keep nages working very hard but never completely stopping them - as that is not very helpful for people much under sandan. I encourage everyone to train in a way that builds up towards maximum resistance - with respect to danger of course...

I believe that you were not supposed to resist anything until sandan to avoid bad habits, but I think we can say do not stupidly resist things, and developing the full body resistivity is a good thing for all.

If someone is pinning me in aikido, my opinion is that they should be balancing me so well that it is very hard for me to get up. If a nage trys a joint lock in any way other than to stretch the uke out then I would probably consider that nage unsafe to practice with. If a teacher does it once to make a point, then that teacher might have to consider why they are losing students... In my opinion, no teacher should let their students actively try to accomplish ego-satisfaction in aikido as that is going the reverse way down the path (aiki OD ?)

Rob

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#126974 - 11/11/04 06:37 PM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
If a nage trys a joint lock in any way other than to stretch the uke out then I would probably consider that nage unsafe to practice with.

Here is my point, if you are learning to pin, you go slow and 'stretch someone out as you say. But when we go into practice mode, its with the mind set of practice like you play. I have a bit of a problem with strtching someone out in a real situation. Our pins are to disable the attacker and keep from attacking again. So if you kkep practicing with being easy on the pin, it will come back to you this way in self-defense mode. But if you don't practice for self-defense in mind, then its not necessary. As for me, I don't think you would feel safe with me, and I really don't care if the student likes it or not. If I don't have alot, thats fine. I'd rather have 3-4 who like to understand and practice hard, than a class of 20 who just want to walk the motions. Aiki is directed more toward harmony. Having done it, felt it, and applied it,its not the same as doing it the way you would for real. One needs to know how it feels for real, and apply it for real, so you can when it counts. So I am not very 'harmonic' like most Aikidoka

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#126975 - 11/12/04 10:05 AM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Rob,

I think these last two posts come back around to the question I started with. In practical application (not in the dojo but "in the street") would you actually finish off with a controlled pin? In much of my aikido career I have been trained to "go slowly" (granted we don't want o injure our uke in class or else you run out of training partners) and "give uke a good stretch". While I'm uke I've been told to "relax into the pin and feel the stretch", that sort of thing.

Now I can certainly understand this for learning the mechanics of the pin and safe ukemi, but I can't see this being translated into a dark parking lot.

Hypothetical example: I'm coming home from a business trip one evening and I'm in the parking lot at LAX. Some guy comes at me with that evil gleam in his eye (and a beer bottle in his hand, just for effect). I for one wouldn't be thinking, okay I need to pin this guy nice and slowly and be careful not to hurt him; but that is how most pinning finishes are taught and practiced (in the dojos and seminars thta I've been to).

So I guess the question is how do you (everyone reading this) train to translate that smooth and easy stretch/pin, into something that you would use in a dark parking structure at 11pm?

Chris

PS: I'm hoping for training methods, not "change your mindset"

Thanks

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