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#126946 - 09/29/03 10:11 AM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
dazzler Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 296
Loc: England
Hi Chris

In our Aikido club its more discussed than practiced - with everything we try and give it a realistic stance and make sure that once the basics are instilled then everyone is aware of the dangers of traditional pins so don't confuse dojo practice with reality.

Its difficult to practice much attemi on a thrown uke. They dont like it too much and its a bit much when its their turn.

I've practiced it a lot more realistically within Goshin Jujitsu but essentially even within this the strikes are pulled. Incidentally knee pins featured extensively in exactly the way you describe as do stamps.

If I wanted to make a point of this when teaching I'd probably use 2 ukes. The dangers of pinning one and ignoring the other soon become very clear!

Respect

D

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#126947 - 09/29/03 10:41 AM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
dazzler Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 296
Loc: England
Chris

Nother thing we have in common...throwaways ..usually kokyoho nage.

Ok theres a time and a place for them but I'd favour throwing uke down. That way they are in reach of a stomp or axe kick if you need it.

For purely grading and dojo work it also shows you have uke under control rather than having uke escape a weak lock or throw by rolling away.

Cheers

D

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#126948 - 09/29/03 12:23 PM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
Cato-

I very well maybe the exception, not the rule. No one showed me how to escape these pins, it just sort of came to me. I am pretty flexible, and maybe my wrestling background had something to do my ability to escape the pins... Who knows?

Anyway, to get out of a properly applied nikkyo pin (three palms up), I've found that if I "summersault" over my head it releases the pressure on the arm and leaves me in position to strike at the wide open side of nage, or maybe they're technically uke at this point. I've done this both while nage is setting the pin as well as after it's already been set, with all the slack taken out, and a painful amount of pressure being applied. Again, maybe I'm the exception and not the rule, but I've pulled this off on ikkyo as well as sankyo pins, never tried on a yonkyo pin, and I wouldn't probably try it on gokyo weapon takeaway pin, but then again I probably will so I'll get back to you.

Joe.

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#126949 - 09/30/03 02:19 AM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
There are two points here. 1. the difference between a throw and a takedown. I do not like throws, here I mean projections, where the attaker has a chance to roll out or escape. My throws or projections would be into a wall, or on top of a car. In my mind, throws, kokyu-nage's, require that you let loose of the throw which allows the attacker a chance to come back again, chances are madder than before. You also have to deal with 'how' the throw will work if they do not know how to fall or roll. I prefer takedowns, even Iriminage and Koshinage I do as a takedown and stay on the attacker for my follow ups.
Secondly on Joes question of Nikkyo, he should know now how he can get out of the lock, if he will apply what he knows about Nikkyo he should be able to stop someone from getting out of it. Sounds nuts but this is how we work the locks. Joe says he can 'roll' out of the lock. That would tell me that there is an opening in my technique. So, now I will look at the technique and apply the Nikkyo so that the person can't roll. Here is the trick. Most of the time Nikkyo is performed 1 way, however there are many ways to perform the lock. You can apply the lock to the attackers center, this way you keep someone like Joe from rolling out of it. You can apply the lock downward spiral like a downward block and freeze them in place. You can apply the lock to your center, his arm pit, back at his face, in a long stance, in a cat stance, in a horse stance. I like to apply the lock to them, then to me, this way, I set them up for a left hook, after the lock. My point is this, try to reverse the lock and find how to get out of the lock, take what you learn and apply the lock so they can't get out that way. I probably have more versions of Nikkyo than any other lock. We believe in multiple locking and working up the arm, so Nikkyo itself, may well start at fingers, then go to the wrist, then to the elbow. Another major point here is this, just because someone locks, doesn't mean he won't strike. If Joe would be able to roll out of the lock,with me, he would roll into a kick/knee, or in some cases I apply Nikkyo and bring the attacker in for a knee, then send him backward keeping the lock the entire time. Every lock can be reversed, it takes study to find out how to reverse the reverse and apply your technique in such a way, that reverses won't work, or they walk into your strikes. I know this is not Aikido mind set, though I never said it was. The question here is about a lock, not an Aikido lock. Remember too, other styles use locks that are similar and use other aspects of their art to stop reverses. Chin Na grabs muscles, tendons etc, to prevent reverses. Lua, use bites to prevent anything, we try to peel the skin off the person. I'm sure Chris will atest to the usefulness of the bites

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#126950 - 09/30/03 09:37 AM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Ouch.

Just to be clear though, we aren't talking about bites with the teeth but with the hand. Though I'm sure they can be done using feet.

chris

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#126951 - 10/01/03 01:06 AM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
i agree with sensei lou..again...as usual.
a properly (thats the key) applied joint lock does work.
thats not to say im gonna get you in an armbar and then laugh and boast haha i got you in a lock...no you are gonna bend forward into a nice hard front kick to the face [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
and i think the key to making joint locks work is as lou stated...keep on the pressure and learn to keep the lock applied to a moving opponent (see wally jay for a great demonstration of this)...in other words apply constant pressure...which traslates into constant pain. all the while though you should be striking as well...before during and after the lock.

[This message has been edited by kempo_jujitsu (edited 10-01-2003).]

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#126952 - 10/02/03 05:49 PM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
I was referring to knealing pins, and we don't do armbars in my style of aikido, although the posibility is certainly their (think kaiten nage).

Joe

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#126953 - 10/02/03 09:16 PM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
forgive me and my "modern" approach...but if the possibility is there...then the technique is there and you should learn to use it....at least in my opinion. so basically as i see it...armbars ARE in your style of aikido...even though you may not practice them actively. it was used as an example only anyway...any lock can be applied...
for kneeling pins and locks...id say unless you want to wait there and hold them in that position all day...you need to strike them. or in some other way effectively take them out of the fight...or take the fight out of them whichever the case may be.

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#126954 - 10/02/03 10:36 PM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
I know it's just semantics, but aikido is a modern martial art so we're all taking a "modern approach."

I see what you're saying kempo, but I'm missing how you could afford to let go with one hand during a knealing pin without uke gettin up and perhaps making you pay for it.

Joe.

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#126955 - 10/03/03 06:32 AM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
dazzler Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 296
Loc: England
Joe

Next time you try kotagaeshi and Uke smiles up at you just before you turn him over, try the following;

face stamp to remove the smile (optional)..
we use nikkyo finish for kotagaeshi...others may not...anyway if he's (or she...) is face down use one knee on the back of head / neck.

You could find that you dont need either hand especially if you amend your nikkkyo and lock ukes straight arm against your chest and lean in with some of that torque you like so much.

Alternatively ... As youve turned Uke over, fight that urge to stamp ukes head and instead place nearest foot against Ukes head (ear pin available if they are dumbo-esque... facing in same direction as them.. bring their straight extended arm up and rest it on the furthest leg from them and you again might have a juicy pin with minimal need for hand control. ...Again fight that urge to stamp down over their straightened elbow as you lift arm into position.

Finally ...look at a traditional niikkyo finish...look at the similarities with a jujitsu hammer lock..You can get this on with a jo stick, your leg, your walking stick or just about anything...If uke fights it bang it on...If they relax then you can relax a bit too...

This may satisfy even your wriggling wrestler urges...

D

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