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#126936 - 09/27/03 11:16 AM After the lock? / After the pin?
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
In most of my aikido training, I have been taught that a technique ends in one of two ways: either you "throw the person away" and they roll from something like a kaiten-nage, of you control them and pin them with ikkyo into a standing pin for example.

However, I am off the belief that you probably shouldn't plan to end a street situation with a pin as there may be other people involved and at some point you have to let the pin off...

This leads to me to a couple of options in no particular order: break the limb, go down and choke them into unconsciousness, or let the pin go and run away.

I'm curious about how others might train, specifically as it translates into a self-defense or "street" situation. What kind of mindset do you have at that point?

Thanks for your input

Chris

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#126937 - 09/27/03 01:43 PM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Chris, I am sure you know my stand on this so I won't bore you with what I think, but will relate what my Sensei's have said. One, says on the ground, the body is up-side down, and you do things backwards on the ground than you do standing up. So on the ground, he starts with using his legs, because they are the closest weapon to the closest target. So he goes, legs then arms in this case. Another Sensei says, they need to end up on the ground, but I don't and he chooses to do what he calls 'shoe jobs' on them, kicking, stomping, rubbing your shoes all over his face, with stomps and kicks. Yet another Sensei stresses the use of knees, to ribs, to face, then break. Another Sensei, stresses break and run, so try to break the limb as they are going down, then when they hit the ground, knees to ribs. Another Sensei as I mentioned to you stresses taking out the arms, work the head and body, and finsih with stomps to the legs. How you choose to do this is up to you. Bottom line here is that you have the same options with the attacker down, as you do when they are up, you can strike them, kick them, lock them, choke them, or get on the ground with them. It is really what you want to accomplish

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#126938 - 09/27/03 05:12 PM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Sensei Lou,

We touched on a little bit of this on Thursday night. I was thinking of it this morning and thought I'd put it up.

I like the double knee work you showed, I've worked that in the past too. I'm going to have to try out the double open-hand followed by the combination strikes. I really haven't worked that one!

thanks

Chris

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#126939 - 09/27/03 07:40 PM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
I was thinking about starting a thread about this, but it sort of applies here so before I diverge...

I don't know what I'd do. If my life was really in danger, I'd probably go for a break, the attacker is going to be alot less of a threat with a broken limb, especially if they've tried to strike with their dominant hand. I agree that kneeling pins might be a bit risky, but that's why one should keep her head up and stay on your toes. Seiza on your toes is a good position to move promptly in any given direction should the need arise.

That said, here's my sub-topic. We were working on pins the other day, and it came to light that there is no aikido pin that I can't get out of. With the exception maybe of excruciating torque being applied to my locked arm, I'm able to get out of the pins, and the sad thing is it isn't rocket science. I was working with one of my sensei's, a sandan who in my opinion is quite talented, and his response was, well, don't show anybody else in class (this was at a university club session with 75% newbies who we don't want to confuse).

But my sensei did make a good point. It was sort of neat in a way what I was doing, switching roles- once I was pinned I was no longer uke but nage working my way out of an attack. True, all aikido techniques do have counters, but does anyone else find this remotely disconcerting? If, in a real life self-defense situation, not like a mental health practitioner restraining a wacko, should we "go for the break?" And what legal ramifications would one be facing if they did so, even if the break was in self defense??

Joe.

[This message has been edited by Joe Jutsu (edited 09-27-2003).]

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#126940 - 09/28/03 02:15 PM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
Hmmm...

I think most aikido pins as practiced are not "proper holds", but they can be with a little modification.

By proper hold, I mean a hold which has two elements, such that working against one causses the other to come into play. An axample would be locking someone's arm with one hand, and using the other hand to lock the neck. Working against the arm lock adds to the neck lock, and vice versa.

But, like Csinca pointed out earlier in the thread, now that you have him all locked up, what are you going to do with him? I hear the phrase "now we can talk about it" used a lot. I think it's risky to assume you can always talk someone down these days. Many are likely to go to their car and get the gun if you leave them capable of doing so.

This is one reason why I think it is so important to try to shake the urge to "police the world" as a way of validating your training or just helping out. Violence all too often escalates to an extreme these days. My plan is to leave the non-lethal controlling force to the professionals who have an obligation to protect those they arrest, and save mine for drunk uncles at weddings and horsing around with friends. No fights! But I guess we all have to decide where to draw the line ourselves.

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#126941 - 09/29/03 01:56 AM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
First of all it depends on how you practice and what your mind set is. A "break" is nothing more than a lock continued. In the dojo I hold on a second or two after the persons taps for 2 reasons, 1. to let him know I can go further, 2. to reinforce to me that there is a break for every lock. If you practice the lock for the sake of the lock, you may have openings in the lock, if you practice the lock with the break in mind, the pressure is never let up on the lock till you want to release it. So again its how you practice. We spend more time on finishing locks than anything else and have all sorts of them. I like to say we have more locks than Dunkin has donuts. At last count, there were 55 finishing locks. I have heard all the arguments about tying yourself up and locks are easily escapable, but it depends on how much you practice them and how you do them. For every lock on the ground, I have a second or third one coming if necessary so if you escape 1 you will walk into another 1. But it takes practice, alot of practice. Another point, you have to soften the person on the ground up with strikes before the locks if you want utmost efficiency. Its better to to overwhelm them with strikes and then lock them up. This is our approach. Once again, I have heard things like you can't catch a Karate-ka kick. Its hard to do, but can be done if you practice catching kicks by a good kicker, not someone though, who really doesn't know how to kick. Locks don't work in real situations on the ground is another thing I have heard, they do if you practice them, so its about how you practice your locks, not about if they work or not.

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#126942 - 09/29/03 04:08 AM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
dazzler Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 296
Loc: England
Interesting question csinca...How about thinking outside the box a little...

Would any instructor actually advocate getting down on your knees to try a traditional lock in a street scenario?

Dojo practice is for the dojo...Use it to learn your art. When you are proficient you can be flexible in your thought processes and in a 'real' situation you can respond appropriately.

Dont go to the floor except as a last resort...Even if you are really good against a single opponent who's to say there aren,t some friend of your opponent about to walk around the corner. Will they stand and watch while you perfect that pin?

I'm with Lou on the strikes here. Get your strikes in and get away. Lock or strangle if you have no option.

Traditional pins in the dojo are fine for practice, balance, technical efficiency, deterity, use of body weight all come into play and they can demonstrate your skill nicely for gradings.

But thats not the same as dealing with a 'live one!'

Joe - Are you double jointed? I'd like to see you wriggle out of a correctly applied nikkyo finish or a jujitsu hammerlock. Especially if your partner introduced Lou's philosophy and gave you a couple of whacks for you pains.....Or even some of that excruciating torque.

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#126943 - 09/29/03 06:19 AM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Joe, I'm curious...how do you get out of a properly applied nikkyo or sankyo pin? Surely the very act of twisting and turning adds to the pressure of the lock? The reason I ask is that I have never come across anyone who can get out of them before, and it is something I have never considered.

I remember a while ago senseilou touched on a really important aspect of locks - he called it taking out the slack. If the slack is taken out of a lock there is very little room to manoeuvre yourself out of it without something breaking. If you can manoeuvre out of that, then I would suggest you are the exception rather than the rule, and the lock is still valid for the vast majority of people (they certainly work on me [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] )

I think there is an good discussion to be had in the "what do you do with them now you've pinned them" scenario and I'd be interested to hear opinions on it.

Budo

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#126944 - 09/29/03 09:40 AM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Thanks for the feedback guys.

Dazzler - it sounds like you and I are on the same page. I pose the original question exactly for the reason you point out, pins are great for the dojo but what is their application in the street.

I also agree with Sensei Lou's comments on softening uke up with strikes, I now look for that from the first motion to the last.

When I mentioned using knees in my previous post, I wasn't refering to going down to the ground but rather getting in a couple of knee shots to any ribs that might be exposed, shoulders that might be stretched or necks/heads that might be in the area.

Mikey, I hear the same phrase and I agree that once things get to this point, talking is probably not going to have good success (unless you sink a floating rib with your entrance...)

It sounds like Joe and I (and possibly) Mikey are for the most part trained in the pin-tap-release cycle and are looking to add to our "reportoire". Sensei Lou takes things a bit further and adds some spice on the way.

Dazzler, how to you practice the "outside the box strike and get away" method? Do you practice/teach that in your dojo (punches pulled a bit so you can re-use the uke)?

Thanks

Chris

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#126945 - 09/29/03 09:44 AM Re: After the lock? / After the pin?
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Didn't want that last post to go any longer but from a practical application, I think there may be others that feel they are safe once they execute a throw such as kaiten nage. The thought being that once the attack has ben received and dealt with and the attacker sent on his way, things are not back to harmony.

I'm no longer a big fan of throw aways as I prefer to keep'em close and off balance rather than have to start all over again.

Chris

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