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#126884 - 09/15/03 03:29 PM Secrets of Aikido
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
I've read numerous sources claiming that the secrets of karate are hidden in the kata. I was wondering if anyone here feels that the "true essence" of aikido is found "between the lines" of kumiwaza. To what extent do you agree or disagree with this presumption?

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#126885 - 09/15/03 03:42 PM Re: Secrets of Aikido
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
I think the secret has to be "hidden between the lines". I have always viewed the techniques practiced in aikido as sign posts pointing to the "truth" of aikido rather than as actual expressions of the truth themselves.

In other words, the techniques illustrate certain concepts that are almost universal in their applicability.

I think the attacks practiced are highly stylized for just that reason-- to allow someone to get the "feel" for aiki.

To parlay that feeling, which amounts to "knowing aiki when I see it" into actual practice requires a deeper level of understanding, going "beyond technique" as is often said.

At that point, I think the practitioner progresses beyond merely becoming familiar with aiki by experiencing it in scripted, stylized attacks to being able to *create* aiki from random situations. That's my theory anyway... I'll let you know if/when it works out for me. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#126886 - 09/15/03 04:07 PM Re: Secrets of Aikido
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yes that has been my point all along. If Aikido eliminate Atemi because it is non-aggressive then Aiki-Jutsu and all other Aiki (non-aggressive) arts should do the same to acheive this. I don't think Aikido was meant to be a less brutal art at all.
Aikido can be brutal and yet non-aggressive like other Aiki arts.

-Shotokan

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#126887 - 09/16/03 04:23 PM Re: Secrets of Aikido
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
Shotokan-

First off, aiki does not mean non-aggressive. Second off, aikido was never meant to be brutal. Quite the opposite actually. I have to ask, have you ever stepped onto an aikido mat, or even been in an aikido dojo before? If you've ever watched a class then you might have a different opinion.

Joe.

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#126888 - 09/17/03 11:27 AM Re: Secrets of Aikido
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joe Jutsu:
Shotokan-

First off, aiki does not mean non-aggressive. Second off, aikido was never meant to be brutal. Quite the opposite actually. I have to ask, have you ever stepped onto an aikido mat, or even been in an aikido dojo before? If you've ever watched a class then you might have a different opinion.

Joe.
[/QUOTE]

Can you honestly break a guys wrist and tell me that's not brutal (Ai) Harmony (Ki) Energy (Do) Way. Being in harmony with your opponents energy? Is this what it means?

-Shotokan

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#126889 - 09/17/03 03:38 PM Re: Secrets of Aikido
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
Aikido is not about breaking wrists!

The possibility is certainly there in certain techniques (kotegaeishi), but a remotely proficient aikidoka has enough tricks up his sleeve to apply the appropriate technique in any given situation. It would be extremely difficult to break a wrist doing ikkyo, IMHO. Not all schools of aikido even do kotegaeishi, or wrist turn anymore. It has been adapted to koteoroshi, or wrist drop for various reasons, which I'm sure the safety of uke is not the least of those reasons.

If aikido was so brutal, then why is it taught to police forces and mental health fascilitators who face nearly daily violent situations, situations where it is not kosher to say the least to take down the attacker with "brutal techniques." Restraint, not damage, is the goal in these scenarios, exactly what aikido was designed to do.

You want to see brutal, then check out Muy Thai.

Joe.

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#126890 - 09/17/03 04:32 PM Re: Secrets of Aikido
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Joe is on the right track here. Aikido "techniques" are designed to be skeletal locks. If ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, kote...etc are done correctly they lock up the entire arm to the shoulder giving you control of the uke.

Of course you have to feel this to understand it. Watching it will give you the impression that one guy is twisting the other guys wrist.

Chris

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#126891 - 09/22/03 10:23 AM Re: Secrets of Aikido
dazzler Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 296
Loc: England
Hi guys

Well heres my 2 pence worth (englishman)...

The 'secrets' of aikido are indeed enclosed within the techniques of Aikido.

The main 'secret' being that they are not techniques at all but 'teachings' - In the case of kotagaeshi kamai (positional relationship) maai (distance) shisei (posture) are all fundamental bases that can be practice through this teaching.

Yes - to the observer the wrist is being twisted, but unless its taken away from ukes centre this wont happen.

In a dojo situation its all about control and using the teachings to develop the bases above.

If all you've got is a wrist twist you might find your opponent giving you some bad news with the other hand!

Regards

D

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#126892 - 01/29/04 06:31 AM Re: Secrets of Aikido
Banzai_Joe Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 8
Loc: Nottingham, UK
Think slightly laterally on the meaning of aikido.
'The Way'.....who's way? Well, your way actually, my way, any aikidoka's way.
Point im making is, having been in aikido for 8 years, i have been 'shown' not taught certain 'exercises' not techniques. How I interpreted them and developed from them was up to me.
"If you find the true value of the exercise, then you have made it your own" (my sensei, 1998) I think herein lie the secrets of aikido. Is there any better way to find harmony in a technique/exercise than to find it yourself, from a little instruction? i don't think so.
"if you find it without being shown, then it is truly yours" (my sensie again).....and it makes sense dont you think.
6ft dude finds a different way to perform irimi nage than 5ft dude and vice versa.
Adapt and make it one with your body and mind. That's the secret. imho.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#126893 - 01/29/04 06:39 AM Re: Secrets of Aikido
dazzler2 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 148
Loc: england
Welcome aboard BJ.

What federation are you with?

D

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