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#126864 - 09/15/03 01:23 PM If Aiki means non-aggressive then???
TaewandoBabe Offline
Member

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 40
I have been told that Aikido means Aiki (non-aggressive) Do (Way).
I have been told that this is the reason why Atemi has been eliminated from Aikido to make it more non-aggressive.

I have been told that if Aikido contained Atemi, it would now longer be Aikido, it would be Aiki-Jitsu.

Are all of these statements true?

-TaewandoBabe

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#126865 - 09/15/03 03:22 PM Re: If Aiki means non-aggressive then???
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
TaewondoBabe-

Let's see, where to start.... Different schools of aikido may translate the name a bit differently. It's my understanding that "ai" means "harmony," "ki" (chi) means roughly "energy," and "do" (tao) means path or way. So put it to gether, and you get "The Way to Harmony with Ki." But we also define it as "The Way to Harmony with the Universe."

Aikido does in fact contain atemi. So it is not aikijujutsu if it contains atemi, still aikido. The intent behind the atemi maybe what characterizes aikido though. Atemi are used in aikido to distract uke to lead into a pin or a throw, or as a throw itself. The intent of the atemi is not to maime uke or be a means in and of itself, that is unless the atemi is an actual throw. Hope this helps.

Joe.

[This message has been edited by Joe Jutsu (edited 09-15-2003).]

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#126866 - 09/16/03 10:35 PM Re: If Aiki means non-aggressive then???
TaewandoBabe Offline
Member

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 40
Thanks. I think I understand now.

-TaekwandoBabe [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#126867 - 09/24/03 08:52 AM Re: If Aiki means non-aggressive then???
dazzler Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 296
Loc: England
Hi

Found this a really interesting question and am surprised there are not more responses.

I pretty much agree with joe on the popular translation of Ai and Ki here but differ on the popularly accepted version of 'do'.

We work with this more as Dao or Tao as Joe refers to it, in this case Ai-Ki-Do becomes 'harmonising the man with Ki according to the principles of the Tao' - Ying and Yang etc.

Appreciate this may be a bit radical for some and places me in very much a minority but its well worth a thought or two.

To expand this theory - Uke attacks with shomen - effectively ying or Irimi, Tori responds by absorbing that attack - yang or tenkan...once the power of the attack has been absorbed it is returned to uke once again as a ying...technique is irrelevant.

As for no atemi. Aikido at its core IS irimi attemi. Enter and strike.

I'm no Aiki Jutsu man but I'm not sure their translation of Aiki is quite the same as ours (I'll accept that for a lot of aikido its probably the same too) but I believe the Aikido of O'sensei and what it is today is radically different from the original Daito Ryu Aiki Jutsu.

The focus of the former was very much on perfecting the originl techniques whereas in Aikido emphasis shifted to using the techniques as tools to harmonise the practicioner with the ki energy of the universe.

I'd add - in no way detracting from its martial effectiveness by governing all of these movements by a series of bases or principles eg Maai - distance. Shisei - posture, Kokyoho - breathing

So Taewondobabe - No - none of them are true!

IMHO of course!

Respect

D

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#126868 - 09/29/03 05:06 AM Re: If Aiki means non-aggressive then???
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I think aikido is the "non aggressive way" in much the same way that Judo is the "gentle way". The problem lies in the translation. In Judo "gentle" would be better translated as "non-resisting", in aikido "non aggressive" would be better stated as "absorbing". Clearly to absorb something it has to coming at you, so aikido has no attacking moves per se. This often leads to it being interpreted as non aggressive, but that is only in the sense that it is for defence rather than attack.

Thanks for your interpretation of the principles of aikido Dazzler. I think it is perhaps only in the terminology that you use that you differ from most mainstream aikido ryuha. Your description of yin and yang would, I think, be most aikidoka's interpretation of "harmony" (ai)?

Budo

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#126869 - 09/29/03 06:33 AM Re: If Aiki means non-aggressive then???
dazzler Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 296
Loc: England
Hi Cato

I think its a little more than terminology. We direct our training towards bringing ying and yang together to create a form that is hopefully infused with Ki.

It possible to practice the same moves without this conscious target which will influence the way of practice.

I'd have to disagree on no attacking moves although I'm comfortable with non agressive.

An essential base that we incorporate into our practice is that of Omote / Ura..again at a higher level this can equate to ying/yang but at a more phyical level Omote can be applied to a technique whereby tori initiates the attack and utilises Ukes defensive response ...Ura would exist where Tori has allowed Uke to attack then utilises the power of this attack agaist them.

Key factor here is 'allows' the attack. Tori is still trying to control Uke and solicit a response...rather like a boxer dropping his guard to encourage a strike that can be countered.

Anyway ...I digress...I believe if theres gonna be a fight then start it and this still fits well with my Aikido philosophy ...If I start it I can control it and hopefully dictate its level of escalation.

Thanks for reply ...nearly had to do some work for a bit there ;-)

Respect

D

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#126870 - 10/05/03 08:26 AM Re: If Aiki means non-aggressive then???
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Again, the Devil is in the detail. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] When I refer to Omote/ura in a MA sense I mean simply whether a techniques goes forward or backwards. It's amazing how diferent interpretations can put a whole new slant on what seems a familiar concept, isn't it.

I am a little confused with how an attack can also be non aggressive. It appears you're saying aikido has attacks but remains non aggressive? I don't get it. Surely any and every attack is inherently aggressive.

I can't say that I'm familiar with any aikido that initiates an attack, but then I admit there is a lot of aikido that I don't know. The closest I can get is when an aikidoka leads an opponent to attack an apparently vulnerable point, still a questionable tactic from an ethical point of view, but the attack still isn't iniotiated by the aikidoka. That is why I said aikido has no attacks as such. Does your experience of aikido "attacks" differ from this?

I'm also not sure how the pre-emptive strike would work from an aikido standpoint, either practically or philosophically. On the face of it, striking an opponent first seems to be at odds with the principles of aiki (blend and re-direct), and with the philosophy of controlling others aggression to keep them "safe".

Budo

PS Hope I haven't made you work this time [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#126871 - 10/05/03 10:22 AM Re: If Aiki means non-aggressive then???
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Cato,

I'm not seeing how leading an opponent to attack an apparently vulnerable point is ethically questionable. I'm curious to hear more about your view on this.

Chris

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#126872 - 10/06/03 06:07 AM Re: If Aiki means non-aggressive then???
dazzler Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 296
Loc: England
Cato

I did have to do some work - I blame you!

I would agree that an all out assault on an unsuspecting and innocent victim might go against the grain as little.

But I have no issue in using a pre-emptive attack to either take out a potential threat or solicit a response by which I can contol and neutralize said threat?

If its good enough for governments its good enough for me...

Anyway ...I seriously think there has been a massive misinterpretation of the initial concepts of Aikido as perceived by O'Sensei.

Eg Harmony...I think this has been construed as being passive, not hurting your opponent and inviting him around for tea and sandwiches....

I believe the harmony of aikido is in the blending of movement between tori and uke...Uke attacks , tori receives...or if uke breathes in (raising an arm to strike) tori breathes out moving in...In the dojo you might make ikkyo...in the street a right cross will do the same thing.

Aikido IS a martial art. Its core is Irimi and atemi ...As soon as it becomes a self defence sytem then it is not Aikido.

Cheers

D

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#126873 - 10/06/03 09:55 AM Re: If Aiki means non-aggressive then???
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
Dazzler-

Could you define a defense system vs. a martial art. I've always thought of, read, and been taught that aikido is a defensive martial art. What are your thoughts on this "label."

I've always thought of aikido as a pacifistic system. We need to make the distinction between a "passivist" and a "pacifist." i.e. in a martial situation, a passivist might just stand there, take a woopin' and turn the other cheek ala Christian mythology. A pacifist will do what is necessary to bring the situation to as peaceful of a solution as possible. If it means a strong irimi and atemi to one assaulters throat before turning on the next and perhaps breaking a joint to immobalize the opponent before turning to deal with their other friends, as long as this is done without a "fighting mind" I still see this as aikido, and the aikidoka could still be seen as a pacifist in the abovesaid situation.

Joe.


[This message has been edited by Joe Jutsu (edited 10-06-2003).]

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