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#126846 - 09/12/03 06:17 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2806
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
OK Shotokan I think I can see where you are comming from. You are looking at the art as it exists today (modern) and trying to find the combative aspects that it used to employ in the feudal times (or when the art began)... am I correct?

In any case I feel that you are comparing apples to oranges. You seem to be looking at the DO arts and trying to find the combative applications. The DO arts were created to fit modern society (due to the abscence of daily violence). Emphasis strayed away from battlefield applications and moved towards spirituality, self discovery, character development... etc. Jutsu arts are meant for killing, disabling your opponent instantly on the battlefield.
You seem to be looking at the DO arts (Karate-do, Aiki-do, Ken-do, Iai-do, Ju-do) and attempting to find their "lost" combative applications. Practiioners of these systems are taught to look at their katas/techniques a different way than the practioners of the Jutsu arts. Quite frankly the creators of these DO systems wanted it that way.
All these DO arts have come from a Jutsu system which are still in existance today (Karate Jutsu, Aiki-jiujitsu [and certain sects of Aikido as stated by Senseilou and csinca], Kenjitsu, Iaijitsu, Jiujitsu).
It seems that you are unhappy with your Block/Punch system of Shotokan Karate-do and are trying to delve deeper to find the original principles. I suggest you find a jutsu system to help satisfy your martial thurst and spend less time making bold blanket statements.

#126847 - 09/12/03 08:38 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido

[IMG][/IMG] [IMG][/IMG] :/

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 09-12-2003).]

#126848 - 09/12/03 08:40 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido

Unhappy with Shotokan?
Bold Blankets statements?
Do arts (way)less effective that Ju arts (gentle)?

If Karate wasn't meant for killing well I'll be darned! Karate came from Ju Jitsu? I always thought I'd had alot of it's influence from Kung Fu and little influence from Ju Jitsu or Gentle Jitsu. It seems you are a bit biased toward the Ju arts. Kyusho is a key element of true Karate (chinese orgin) [The Chinese Hand]

Um at least you see where I am coming from (somewhat), I am happy enough with that [IMG][/IMG]


True Karate is a complete self-defense system with strong emphasis on Atemi, but does not ignore Kansetsu Waza, and Kyusho, with hard and soft techniques. (Excludes ground work). Karate-Jitsu emphasizes Kansetsu more than Karate-Do.

The equation is more like this:

One part Okinawan - Kyusho
One part Japanese - Ju Jitsu
One part Chinese - Kung Fu

Even if I am wrong, Karate-Do or Karate-Jitsu, it's still Karate.

It is Karate I am interested in not Do or Jitsu in particular.

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 09-12-2003).]

#126849 - 09/12/03 09:40 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2806
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Go into the martial arts talk forum for my reply.... titled "Shotokan"

[This message has been edited by Raul Perez (edited 09-12-2003).]

#126850 - 09/12/03 10:24 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Joe Jutsu Offline

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
I must add my two cents once again.

It is my firm belief that the implication that post-WWII aikido is somehow lacking is slanderous and false. Tohei Sensei, the founder of my style, the "softest style of aikido" was and is a badass. If one wants to try to argue that point, go for it, but you will have little to no fodder for your argument. He was the first aikidoka to attain 10th dan in aikido, and the first to spread aikido to the western world. How many other martial artists do you see now or ever accept the challenge from each champion judoka from each weight class to a randori. Tohei sensei is the only name that comes to mind, though I'm a relative beginner and maybe wrong. Please correct me if I am. Either way, it is my firm argument that "soft" does not equal "ineffective." As I have stated in other posts, my Ki Society Aikido has saved my ass on multilple occasions, even against muscle-bound bouncers set on showing my "hippie ass" a lesson. I'm a pacifist (please read differently from PASSIVEist). And as csinca has stated earlier I'm pretty happy with my style of aikido's incorporation or lack of atemi, depending how you look at it. To me, there is plenty of atemi in ki society. We are trained to duck out of the way to avoid injury, but alot of the atemi are slashes to the throat (which look like sword cuts) as well as blows to the face and other vital points. But that is not the point. The point of Aikido is that one need not be brutal to be effective. In fact, it is my argument that good aikido should not be brutal, but very effective. But again, it's all in how one trains in an art. While I am young and vigorous, rest assured that is how I will practice. I love incorporating non-traditonal aspects into my practice, but the philosophy remains the same. I may not be able to always keep this "pure" state of mind where I don't want to hurt even those who intend to hurt me, but it is a worthwhile goal, a goal that can keep you out of legal reprocutions lest you have to actually use your training in "real life." And we should not forget, that aikiDO is a lifelong path. Enough with my rant.


[This message has been edited by Joe Jutsu (edited 09-12-2003).]

#126851 - 09/13/03 08:38 AM Re: Shotokan and Aikido

I agree, don't be brutal unless you have to. In most self-defense situations when someone is trying really hard to slice you ass, you have no choice.


#126852 - 10/01/03 05:07 AM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
padme Offline

Registered: 10/01/03
Posts: 2
Loc: united kingdom
I practice both arts and I can honestly say that I see both forms as part of a continuum. In all martial arts the attack is not real - it can't be or we'd all be dead by now. So, that attack has to be limited in some way (by attacker controlling or by artificial additives - gloves etc.).
The atemi in aikido is not to simply distract the defender/attacker it is an attack but watered down.

#126853 - 10/02/03 04:36 AM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
dazzler Offline

Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 296
Loc: England

So much information here!

Some good - some not.

Ai-Ki-Do...By definition Aikido is fixed. (shock horror blasphemy) Harmonise the man using the principles of the Tao to create a manifestation of Ki via a form.

Not exactly my words but those of the longest practicing European Aikidoka. (started in 1952 I believe).

Aikido is what it is. 10,000 forms but each one striving to achieve the above.

To find this we repetitively practice the same moves to perfect them and when everything is in place we can achieve the mythical goal of Aikido anf have a form that contains Ki. Well maybe not all of us...

When I say everything in place I mean; (on a basic level)

Maai...distance it positional relationship
Tai sabaki...Body movement
Kokyoho Rokyuho...Blending or harmonising

These are the bases of Aikido regardless of the form. You can have a great ikkyo with real power. But if you apply it by standing directly in front of uke your Kamai is bad and your gonna get hit. So not good Aiki.

If you apply the same without irimi to destroy ukes posture chances are a reverse elbow is on its way.

I describe it like the ingrdients of a cake (don't laugh ...I do)...Miss out the sugar and it just won't taste right.

So there is good and bad Aikido but the fault is not in the art but in its presentation...There are different ways to achieve and practice the forms to develop these bases above which will vary - everyone is unique with differnt physiques and personalities but the essence of Aikido cannot change.

I smile a bit at all the talk of O'Sensei changing Aikido. It cannot change.

Sure, He refined his teaching style..He will have matured with age. Sure he practiced 'harder' when he was younger...because he WAS younger!

But that doesn't mean everyone else has to practice like an old man...A point that was largely missed by those who choose to copy rather than understand the art.

On a philosophical level I remember being told to counter hard attacks with softer enveloping moves and visa-versa.

I don't for a second think this applies just to Aikido either.

Aikido is soft when it needs to be and hard when it needs to be...



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