FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 34 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
sunny, swordy, jerrybarry24, SenseiGregT, sagat
22914 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Ed_Morris 4
futsaowingchun 3
AndyLA 3
ergees 2
kolslaw 1
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
New Topics
STX Kickboxing Seminar
by Marcus Charles
09/09/14 06:57 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
mindfullness meditation
by
01/06/09 11:27 AM
Recent Posts
Eugue Ryu
by kolslaw
09/12/14 03:35 PM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by AndyLA
09/09/14 05:55 PM
attacked from behind
by AndyLA
09/07/14 07:01 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
09/02/14 06:26 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
mindfullness meditation
by log1call
08/31/14 09:43 PM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
The Karate punch
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:27 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
Forum Stats
22914 Members
36 Forums
35575 Topics
432491 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#126826 - 09/10/03 10:48 AM Shotokan and Aikido
Anonymous
Unregistered


Is Aikido really soft?
If you kick and punch you are playing cat and mouse with your opponent.
If you lock and then strike (Atemi), you can make the opponent motionless. Here is a site (Shotokan) but it demonstrates the same principle I have said (in previous post) makes Aikido effective.

Like Shotokan, Aikido is a combination of Atemi Waza and Kansetsu Waza.

-Shotokan

http://www.karatejitsu.com/katas.html

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 09-10-2003).]

Top
#126827 - 09/10/03 12:33 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
I see what you're saying Shotokan, and I sort of agree with you.

After looking at these katas, though, I see no aikido in them. Granted, one of my teachers from time to time will show us where we could employ a strike if we need to, but atemi in aikido is employed merely to throw uke's mind, taking his balance in the process. In my style we never make contact with an atemi, because it isn't needed. (although I did run face first into what was supposed to be a no touch throw the other day, and let's just say it worked as a touch throw too [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] ).

But hair pulling, groin kicking, etc. at least would not be considered "aikido" in my school. And as a person with long hair, if you use it to throw me you're going to get a foot in your face. My legs are pretty long, as some in my dojo can attest to if they've leaned into a throw. There are a few that have learned the hard way not to bend over.

Hmm... Just some thoughts with no real point.

Joe.

[This message has been edited by Joe Jutsu (edited 09-10-2003).]

Top
#126828 - 09/10/03 05:25 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm not saying it's totally simular, but you get the idea. I've seen Aikidokas throw jabs with the intention to knock out.

-Shotokan

"The use of striking in the performance of Aikido waza or applied technique is not well documented and is even the source of quite a bit of conflicting information. Saotome Sensei has made it quite clear that O-Sensei taught that atemi in Aikido was at the heart of the practice."

"The use of atemi as techniques in themselves, in other words to end the confrontation without need for any other additional application, is as a means of creating physical dysfunction. This can range from strikes which attack the vital organs and are designed to kill to strikes which are targeted at specific limbs and can end an attack by making it impossible for the attacker to continue. This could include crippling blows or strikes which are meant to deliver enough impact to render an attacker unconscious."

See more belowhttp://www.aikieast.com/atemi.htm

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 09-10-2003).]

Top
#126829 - 09/10/03 08:35 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Shotokan,

Exerpts from Chapter Eight from Modern Bujutsu and Budo by Donn F. Draeger (this post is quite lengthy sorry):

Page 140-141:

"Ueshiba was the eldest son of a Wakayama Prefecture farmer. The young Ueshiba traveled to Tokoyo to enroll in the Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu Under Tozawa Tokusaburo in 1898. It is said that Ueshiba's interest in the other classical bujutsu led him to study Yagyu Shinkage Ryu jujutsu under Nakae Masakatsu in 1902. During the Russo-Japanese war Ueshiba served as a conscript soldier in the Imperial Army. This affored him the opportunity to travel and come into contact with various arts of combat and self defense. Throughout his army service Ueshiba continued his practice of jujutsu, and was eventually awarded the Menkyo-kaiden by the Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu in 1908. After his release from the army, Ueshiba traveled to Hokaido with the intention of engaging in agriculture, and it was there that he enrolled himself in the Daito Ryu to learn jujutsu under Sokaku in 1915.
But the enterprising Ueshiba was dissatisfied with the classical bujutsu that he had studied. He sought to focus on higher ideals(do)rather than on the practical aspects of hand-to-hand combat (jutsu). Yet his early form of aiki-jujutsu emphasied practical measures of self-defense....He sought through participation in training to establish a direct contact with nature, improve himself, and thereby better society....In 1938 Ueshiba emerged with his own distinct kind of aiki-jujutsu, which was designed to be suitable for use in the social circumstances of his times. He called it aiki-do."

Page 144 & 161:

"In sharp contrast to Ueshiba's spiritually oriented aiki-do is Sokaku's traditional aiki-jujutsu, the primary purpose of which is to provide a method of hand-to-hand combat. Sokaku's aiki-jujutsu is based on a technical essence that enables the exponent to apply severe measures against an assailant. Ample use is made of atemi, or blows directed against anatomical weaknesses; and atemi always precede the seizure and subduing of an assailant.....
In view of the nature of Sokaku's aiki-jujutsu, Ueshiba's aiki-do is a highly weakened form of hand-to-hand combat. Aiki-do is essentially noncombative in nature because it does not function according to the concept of kobo-itchi; further, the omission of atemi from its techiques removes aiki-do from the category of practical hand-to-hand combat styles. Taught through group instruction methods, aiki-do has for its purpose the development of a healthy mind and body together with a wholesome spirit. All exponents of aiki-do aim to live in harmony with themselves and with those around them. Thus, when the idea of combat is dismissed from mind, Ueshiba's aiki-do is an outstanding system of discipline for the pursuance of those spiritual and sociological aims it has made its own...."

From my perspective, from reading various books on this subject and speaking to aikidokas, if atemi is incorporated into aiki-do it has thus become it's forefather... aiki-jujutsu.

Kind regards,

Raul

[This message has been edited by Raul Perez (edited 09-10-2003).]

Top
#126830 - 09/11/03 09:10 AM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Anonymous
Unregistered


That's what I mean. I know Aikido school that aim for the kill with one blow, simular to Karate. If Aikidokas concentrated more on developing devastating punches and strikes like the Aikidokas of the past did no one would dare to call Aikido soft.

-Shotokan

Top
#126831 - 09/11/03 10:03 AM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Shotokan,

You missed the boat on my post completely.

Aikido, developed by Ueshiba, has atemi waza removed from the curriculum so that the participants can focus more on character development and spirituality. Therefore if one practices Aikido he/she would not throw strikes before a joint lock/throw was initiated. The whole idea behind Aikido is for self betterment and not hand-to-hand combat.
If a participant does use atemi jutsu before a joint lock/throw then that person is doing Aiki-jujitsu.

Aikido - Soft, no atemi jutsu. Deals with spirituality and character development. Insists that one becomes a better constructive member of thier community. Not meant for Hand-to-hand combat. Do.

Aiki-jujitsu - Mostly hard with atemi jutsu. Deals with combative principles and self preservation. Meant for hand-to-hand combat. Jutsu.

I suggest you re-read my post.

Regards,

Raul

Top
#126832 - 09/11/03 12:08 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Anonymous
Unregistered


I got your point Raul (it was long!) it's just that we have too different philosophies.

Now many will say that Ueshiba deleted Atemi Waza from Aikido to concentrate on Kansetsu Waza to develop character? Was this really why he deleted it? Does Kansetsu Waza really develop character? In Shotokan Kansetsu Waza was deleted and Atemi Waza was concentrated on, and Karate is about Character development.

I think to delete techniques for Character development is the stated reason. However have you ever wondered beyond the stated to find out the real value? Judo was the first Martial Art to be legalized in Japan. In doing this many of the ju Jitsu's techniques were deleted because they were considered to be too brutal.

It is my philosopy that the Character aspect of the art is no different from the representation of Boxing as a sport. The WBF has to becareful to promote boxing in a way that it doesn't destroy it's reputation.
In the same way stating that the Martial Arts (military training in general) is good for developing discipline is just said to promote Karate with a good reputation.

As you can see, the kata applications are stated to develop strenght, flexibility and so on. Actually this is just one of the functions it has. Kata was a means for the creators of Karate to encode outlawed moves into a dance so the knowledge that they have worked so hard to acquire will not be lost from future generations.

This is same for Aikido, in order to become legalized it had to under go change to conceal it's brutality, the masters had to say that it was about developing character to promote the art. No martial art we see today is true because they have all undergone some change to soften them. Did you look at the site I provided you with (about Atemi in Aikido)? One master hinted that the heart of Aikido is in Atemi.

I think by now you have gotten my point.

-Shotokan

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 09-11-2003).]

Top
#126833 - 09/11/03 02:10 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
It looks like you guys are really just hashing over semantics. No one posting on this board is going to state why O'Sensei did this that or the other. It has been documented that O'Sensei did train and become very proficient in a number of other arts before creating Aikido. The man knew how to hit people...

Most people training in Aikido or any other art are likely to be pretty happy with their art and all that it includes (or excludes). Those that aren't will either find what they are looking for or suffer quietly (or not so quietly).

I for one wanted to incorporate strikes and I do it. If that means you want to call what I do Aiki-Jujitsu rather than Aikido, it won't hurt my feelings.

Chris

Top
#126834 - 09/11/03 05:24 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Anonymous
Unregistered


Chris, incorporating strikes doesn't = Aiki-Jutsu.

Present day Aikido is a modified version of the original or true Aikido where Atemi Waza was omitted.

True Aikido uses both Kansetsu Waza and Atemi Waza.

You cannot look at the Aikido you see in the dojo and judge it totally, because it like all martial arts that underwent modification to become legalized have lost most of it's effectiveness.

Present day Aikido is soft. True Aikido that uses Atemi Waza as the heart of the art is hard.

Does anyone here have any knowledge of the ban in Japan and the history and philosophy behind the Japanese arts? omg

QUOTE FROM SITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Saotome Sensei has made it quite clear that O-Sensei taught that atemi in Aikido was at the heart of the practice."

"The use of atemi as techniques in themselves, in other words to end the confrontation without need for any other additional application, is as a means of creating physical dysfunction. This can range from strikes which attack the vital organs and are designed to kill to strikes which are targeted at specific limbs and can end an attack by making it impossible for the attacker to continue."

http://www.aikieast.com/atemi.htm

-Shotokan

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 09-11-2003).]

Top
#126835 - 09/11/03 06:12 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Shotokan,

I was simply refering to a previous post. I personally think atemi is a great thing and I'm using it more and more. In my dojo, we usually use atemi to break balance, but to be honest, I've got no problems with delivering a few good shots to end a situation.

You are making a pretty wide blanket statement here....
"Present day Aikido is soft. True Aikido that uses Atemi Waza as the heart of the art is hard."

I guess you are saying you like the pre-war Aikido better than the post-war Aikido.

Chris

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga