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#126826 - 09/10/03 10:48 AM Shotokan and Aikido
Anonymous
Unregistered


Is Aikido really soft?
If you kick and punch you are playing cat and mouse with your opponent.
If you lock and then strike (Atemi), you can make the opponent motionless. Here is a site (Shotokan) but it demonstrates the same principle I have said (in previous post) makes Aikido effective.

Like Shotokan, Aikido is a combination of Atemi Waza and Kansetsu Waza.

-Shotokan

http://www.karatejitsu.com/katas.html

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 09-10-2003).]

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#126827 - 09/10/03 12:33 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
I see what you're saying Shotokan, and I sort of agree with you.

After looking at these katas, though, I see no aikido in them. Granted, one of my teachers from time to time will show us where we could employ a strike if we need to, but atemi in aikido is employed merely to throw uke's mind, taking his balance in the process. In my style we never make contact with an atemi, because it isn't needed. (although I did run face first into what was supposed to be a no touch throw the other day, and let's just say it worked as a touch throw too [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] ).

But hair pulling, groin kicking, etc. at least would not be considered "aikido" in my school. And as a person with long hair, if you use it to throw me you're going to get a foot in your face. My legs are pretty long, as some in my dojo can attest to if they've leaned into a throw. There are a few that have learned the hard way not to bend over.

Hmm... Just some thoughts with no real point.

Joe.

[This message has been edited by Joe Jutsu (edited 09-10-2003).]

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#126828 - 09/10/03 05:25 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm not saying it's totally simular, but you get the idea. I've seen Aikidokas throw jabs with the intention to knock out.

-Shotokan

"The use of striking in the performance of Aikido waza or applied technique is not well documented and is even the source of quite a bit of conflicting information. Saotome Sensei has made it quite clear that O-Sensei taught that atemi in Aikido was at the heart of the practice."

"The use of atemi as techniques in themselves, in other words to end the confrontation without need for any other additional application, is as a means of creating physical dysfunction. This can range from strikes which attack the vital organs and are designed to kill to strikes which are targeted at specific limbs and can end an attack by making it impossible for the attacker to continue. This could include crippling blows or strikes which are meant to deliver enough impact to render an attacker unconscious."

See more belowhttp://www.aikieast.com/atemi.htm

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 09-10-2003).]

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#126829 - 09/10/03 08:35 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Shotokan,

Exerpts from Chapter Eight from Modern Bujutsu and Budo by Donn F. Draeger (this post is quite lengthy sorry):

Page 140-141:

"Ueshiba was the eldest son of a Wakayama Prefecture farmer. The young Ueshiba traveled to Tokoyo to enroll in the Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu Under Tozawa Tokusaburo in 1898. It is said that Ueshiba's interest in the other classical bujutsu led him to study Yagyu Shinkage Ryu jujutsu under Nakae Masakatsu in 1902. During the Russo-Japanese war Ueshiba served as a conscript soldier in the Imperial Army. This affored him the opportunity to travel and come into contact with various arts of combat and self defense. Throughout his army service Ueshiba continued his practice of jujutsu, and was eventually awarded the Menkyo-kaiden by the Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu in 1908. After his release from the army, Ueshiba traveled to Hokaido with the intention of engaging in agriculture, and it was there that he enrolled himself in the Daito Ryu to learn jujutsu under Sokaku in 1915.
But the enterprising Ueshiba was dissatisfied with the classical bujutsu that he had studied. He sought to focus on higher ideals(do)rather than on the practical aspects of hand-to-hand combat (jutsu). Yet his early form of aiki-jujutsu emphasied practical measures of self-defense....He sought through participation in training to establish a direct contact with nature, improve himself, and thereby better society....In 1938 Ueshiba emerged with his own distinct kind of aiki-jujutsu, which was designed to be suitable for use in the social circumstances of his times. He called it aiki-do."

Page 144 & 161:

"In sharp contrast to Ueshiba's spiritually oriented aiki-do is Sokaku's traditional aiki-jujutsu, the primary purpose of which is to provide a method of hand-to-hand combat. Sokaku's aiki-jujutsu is based on a technical essence that enables the exponent to apply severe measures against an assailant. Ample use is made of atemi, or blows directed against anatomical weaknesses; and atemi always precede the seizure and subduing of an assailant.....
In view of the nature of Sokaku's aiki-jujutsu, Ueshiba's aiki-do is a highly weakened form of hand-to-hand combat. Aiki-do is essentially noncombative in nature because it does not function according to the concept of kobo-itchi; further, the omission of atemi from its techiques removes aiki-do from the category of practical hand-to-hand combat styles. Taught through group instruction methods, aiki-do has for its purpose the development of a healthy mind and body together with a wholesome spirit. All exponents of aiki-do aim to live in harmony with themselves and with those around them. Thus, when the idea of combat is dismissed from mind, Ueshiba's aiki-do is an outstanding system of discipline for the pursuance of those spiritual and sociological aims it has made its own...."

From my perspective, from reading various books on this subject and speaking to aikidokas, if atemi is incorporated into aiki-do it has thus become it's forefather... aiki-jujutsu.

Kind regards,

Raul

[This message has been edited by Raul Perez (edited 09-10-2003).]

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#126830 - 09/11/03 09:10 AM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Anonymous
Unregistered


That's what I mean. I know Aikido school that aim for the kill with one blow, simular to Karate. If Aikidokas concentrated more on developing devastating punches and strikes like the Aikidokas of the past did no one would dare to call Aikido soft.

-Shotokan

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#126831 - 09/11/03 10:03 AM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Shotokan,

You missed the boat on my post completely.

Aikido, developed by Ueshiba, has atemi waza removed from the curriculum so that the participants can focus more on character development and spirituality. Therefore if one practices Aikido he/she would not throw strikes before a joint lock/throw was initiated. The whole idea behind Aikido is for self betterment and not hand-to-hand combat.
If a participant does use atemi jutsu before a joint lock/throw then that person is doing Aiki-jujitsu.

Aikido - Soft, no atemi jutsu. Deals with spirituality and character development. Insists that one becomes a better constructive member of thier community. Not meant for Hand-to-hand combat. Do.

Aiki-jujitsu - Mostly hard with atemi jutsu. Deals with combative principles and self preservation. Meant for hand-to-hand combat. Jutsu.

I suggest you re-read my post.

Regards,

Raul

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#126832 - 09/11/03 12:08 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Anonymous
Unregistered


I got your point Raul (it was long!) it's just that we have too different philosophies.

Now many will say that Ueshiba deleted Atemi Waza from Aikido to concentrate on Kansetsu Waza to develop character? Was this really why he deleted it? Does Kansetsu Waza really develop character? In Shotokan Kansetsu Waza was deleted and Atemi Waza was concentrated on, and Karate is about Character development.

I think to delete techniques for Character development is the stated reason. However have you ever wondered beyond the stated to find out the real value? Judo was the first Martial Art to be legalized in Japan. In doing this many of the ju Jitsu's techniques were deleted because they were considered to be too brutal.

It is my philosopy that the Character aspect of the art is no different from the representation of Boxing as a sport. The WBF has to becareful to promote boxing in a way that it doesn't destroy it's reputation.
In the same way stating that the Martial Arts (military training in general) is good for developing discipline is just said to promote Karate with a good reputation.

As you can see, the kata applications are stated to develop strenght, flexibility and so on. Actually this is just one of the functions it has. Kata was a means for the creators of Karate to encode outlawed moves into a dance so the knowledge that they have worked so hard to acquire will not be lost from future generations.

This is same for Aikido, in order to become legalized it had to under go change to conceal it's brutality, the masters had to say that it was about developing character to promote the art. No martial art we see today is true because they have all undergone some change to soften them. Did you look at the site I provided you with (about Atemi in Aikido)? One master hinted that the heart of Aikido is in Atemi.

I think by now you have gotten my point.

-Shotokan

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 09-11-2003).]

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#126833 - 09/11/03 02:10 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
It looks like you guys are really just hashing over semantics. No one posting on this board is going to state why O'Sensei did this that or the other. It has been documented that O'Sensei did train and become very proficient in a number of other arts before creating Aikido. The man knew how to hit people...

Most people training in Aikido or any other art are likely to be pretty happy with their art and all that it includes (or excludes). Those that aren't will either find what they are looking for or suffer quietly (or not so quietly).

I for one wanted to incorporate strikes and I do it. If that means you want to call what I do Aiki-Jujitsu rather than Aikido, it won't hurt my feelings.

Chris

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#126834 - 09/11/03 05:24 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Anonymous
Unregistered


Chris, incorporating strikes doesn't = Aiki-Jutsu.

Present day Aikido is a modified version of the original or true Aikido where Atemi Waza was omitted.

True Aikido uses both Kansetsu Waza and Atemi Waza.

You cannot look at the Aikido you see in the dojo and judge it totally, because it like all martial arts that underwent modification to become legalized have lost most of it's effectiveness.

Present day Aikido is soft. True Aikido that uses Atemi Waza as the heart of the art is hard.

Does anyone here have any knowledge of the ban in Japan and the history and philosophy behind the Japanese arts? omg

QUOTE FROM SITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Saotome Sensei has made it quite clear that O-Sensei taught that atemi in Aikido was at the heart of the practice."

"The use of atemi as techniques in themselves, in other words to end the confrontation without need for any other additional application, is as a means of creating physical dysfunction. This can range from strikes which attack the vital organs and are designed to kill to strikes which are targeted at specific limbs and can end an attack by making it impossible for the attacker to continue."

http://www.aikieast.com/atemi.htm

-Shotokan

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 09-11-2003).]

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#126835 - 09/11/03 06:12 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Shotokan,

I was simply refering to a previous post. I personally think atemi is a great thing and I'm using it more and more. In my dojo, we usually use atemi to break balance, but to be honest, I've got no problems with delivering a few good shots to end a situation.

You are making a pretty wide blanket statement here....
"Present day Aikido is soft. True Aikido that uses Atemi Waza as the heart of the art is hard."

I guess you are saying you like the pre-war Aikido better than the post-war Aikido.

Chris

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#126836 - 09/11/03 07:09 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am not say what I like or what I prefer. I only ask you to ask yourself which is true Aikido? The modified version that omitted Atemi or the original Aikido which uses Atemi extensively to kill. Which is true? Karate we practise nowadays is not true in comparison to what the people in Okinawa practised and used for self-defense. Is the modifed version of Karate we practised today true? I think not, for true karate realizes the value of both Atemi and Kansetsu Waza. The same is for Aikido, is the Aikido we see nowadays the same thing that the creators practised or is it a modified version? O'SENSI (IF YOU CHECK THE SITE OR DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH) MADE IT CLEAR THAT ATEMI IS THE HEART OF AIKIDO. Atemi Waza, like Kansetsu Waza in Karate, was omitted to make the art less brutal and therefore qualify as safe to be practised in Japan after the ban. Same as Ju Jitsu, the Judo/Ju Jitsu we see today is not the original Ju Jitsu it was modified so that it can be legalised.

Remember these arts had horrific reputations for being brutal (all martial arts). The idea of developing discipline through excersize (training), a common philosophy of sports in general, was a way of giving the arts a good reputation so that they could be introduced sucessfully in the Japanese society and the world.

---------------------------------------

Simularly

Western boxing is a brutal art. In the past before it was modified and shown on TV in a ring, it was rough and tumble, people died from the blows. If the gloves were omitted in the boxing ring, boxing would be veiwed differently today. Is the boxing we see today true boxing or is it an art modified to look less brutal to the audience. WBF was very careful in the way boxing was introduced to society, were they not? Same concept.
---------------------------------------

I am not talking about the Aikido that many or all of you practise, I am talking about true Aikido. Is true Aikido soft?

-Shotokan

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 09-11-2003).]

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#126837 - 09/11/03 10:28 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
my teacher practices aikido and aikijujutsu, and he says they are WORLDS apart, not only in that in aikido(modern) the strikes are used for distractions which lead to throws or locks. and in aikijujutsu you hit them to hurt them pure and simple...and they still lead into locks and throws.
also the throws and locks themselves are quite different, aikijujutsu is just brutal sometimes, teaching practitioners how to break limbs and strike the opponent mid technique...i.e...while he is still airborn. what makes them both aiki is the blending with your opponent.
also as was stated the intention of the arts are a big difference....aikijujutsu is brutal, aikido is gentle...seeking not to injure anyone or anything. just my two cents

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#126838 - 09/11/03 10:41 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Present day Aikido is a modified version of the original or true Aikido where Atemi Waza was omitted.

Aikido has been established since 1938 and Ueshiba died in 1969. So the art has been unsupervised by the founder for about 30 years. Do you really think the original art has changed that dramatically in such a short period of time?

Does anyone here have any knowledge of the ban in Japan and the history and philosophy behind the Japanese arts?

Are you referring to the ban in Japan after WWII? Japanese martial arts, unlike Okinawan Te, has flourished since feudal times. It only got interrupted, for a short time, after Japan was defeated in the last World War.

Present day Aikido is soft. True Aikido that uses Atemi Waza as the heart of the art is hard.

How do you know this? You do not even practice Aikido! From your prior posts you say that your school just dabbles in it. So you have the all knowing martial arts wisdom from dabbling in the art to make such a statement?!
The whole essence of Aikido is to end the confrontation without causing serious harm to the aggressor. If atemi waza (vital point striking)is used it could easily cause serious bodily harm. You would probably then argue that Kansetsu Waza is just as devestating. Yes and No. Yes you could dislocate or break an arm but that is less detrimental than collapsing the laranx or bursting the corotid artory.

QUOTE FROM SITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shotokan you seem to find these quotes from the internet and defend them to the bitter end. Even when a veteran of the martial arts (Senseilou), who has extensive training in the art of Aikido, lends his knowledge you immediately denounce him. I could quote sites, more books from notable martial arts historians, articles from established traditional martials artists about Aikido but why bother cause it seems that your mind is already made up, your cup is full and you refuse to empty it just a little.
Now mind you I do agree from where you are comming from. To apply locking and restraining techniques one needs atemi waza in their arsenal. But I disagree that True Aikido (as you term it) had this element as part of its curriculum.

Anyway I feel this discussion of Aikido between 2 Karatekas will lead nowhere since neither of us train in this martial art. I suggest we let Aikidokas bombard this topic for a while before we disagree again.

Have a good night.

Raul

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#126839 - 09/11/03 10:42 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Anonymous
Unregistered


What all of you are missing is this- Osensei changed the art as he went along.Early students of Ueshiba learned atemi, as Ueshiba got older he modified aikido more and removed atemi because he did not feel it fit in with the spiritual philosophy of his.
There is more than one style of aikido-hombu aikido(also known as the founder's aikido)has no atemi-this is what Ueshiba taught before his death.Other styles of aikido run the gamut,some are just a hair away from aiki-jutsu.

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#126840 - 09/12/03 07:35 AM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Anonymous
Unregistered


True Raul I do not train in Aikido, but if someone trained in Aikido that doesn't make them knowledgable about the history or the art does it? Training is physically activity. I am talking about knowing, a different verb, the history and philosophy behind the Japanese arts (not Aikido in particual). All arts from Japan underwent change to reduce it's effectiveness so that it could have be legalized. We know O'Sensi changed the art as he went along, but why did he change it? My argument is based on the assumption that like all Japanese arts, Aikido underwent change to make in more sucessful in introducing it to modern Japanese society. The Martial Arts we practise today is not the arts our ancestors practised, these arts had to lose some effectiveness in order to find a way around the ban. To say O'Sensi changed the art because he thought it would make it more effective or true, would contradict with his statement that Atemi is the heart of Aikido. If O'Sensi made this statement, why did he change the art as he went along? Are you assuming that the suddenly changed his mind?

-Shotokan


P.S

My argument doesn't come from any knowledge of Aikido techniques, it comes from my knowing of history and philosophy.

I do not specialize in Aikidos' history and philosophy, but I know what happened in Japan. From my point of veiw is you are ever to practise a true art you have to revisit the past and see what factors contributed to what it is today. I didn't get this point from a website, it is my own point, I just merely used the website as a suppliment to my argument.

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 09-12-2003).]

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#126841 - 09/12/03 09:49 AM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
True Raul I do not train in Aikido, but if someone trained in Aikido that doesn't make them knowledgable about the history or the art does it?

Any serious martial artist will do extensive research on their style to become familiar with the art's history, founder, philosophy, unique techniques... etc. If I were to ask you about some Shotokan masters I bet you could tell me a few stories about Funakoshi or Anko Itsou.

I am talking about knowing, a different verb, the history and philosophy behind the Japanese arts (but not Aikido in particual).

But this whole thread you started is about Aikido and whether atemi waza was originally part of the curriculum!

To say O'Sensi changed the art to because he think it would make it more effective or true, would contradict with his statement that Atemi is the heart of Aikido.

You are still hanging on to a statement made on a website. How do you know this person is credible? Have you interviewed him? Have you spoken to his instructors and validated this statement? Apparently Senseilou has trained with this man and says his credibility is garbage.

My argument doesn't come from any knowledge of Aikido techniques, it comes from my knowing of history and philosophy.

Apparently so far you have demonstrated that your knowledge has come from websites. You have never backed up your knowlege with references to books, personal experiences with Master Ueshiba, or interviews with his sons or senior disciples.

Here's a website for you...
http://www.realultimatepower.net/

Why dont you just read this website up and down and begin to tell me everything you know about the art of Ninjutsu!

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#126842 - 09/12/03 09:58 AM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Anonymous
Unregistered


I do not specialize in Aikidos' history and philosophy, but I know what happened in Japan. My point of veiw is you are ever to practise a true art you have to revisit the past and see what factors contributed to what it is today. I didn't get this point from a website, it is my own point, I just merely used the website as a suppliment to my argument.

-Shotokan



[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 09-12-2003).]

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#126843 - 09/12/03 10:07 AM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Anonymous
Unregistered


http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=375

Here is a site for you.

To accept the changes made to the arts without understanding why they were made will only hammer your understanding of the truth that the art holds.

Here the factor of sporst gear changed the art of sports karate. Not to say that trapping was eliminated by a master for the good of the art, but there were cases where there was no choice to make changes. Sporting gears made it difficult to do trapping. As a result, present day Karate has moved farther from the truth.

In a simular way the arts of the past were changed because the masters had no choice but to obey the ban place by the Japanese government.

With karate the same is true, however the masters were able to encode outlawed knowledge in the Katas.

-Shotokan

This is not to say that you veiw is wrong and my veiw is right, but our philosophies are different.

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 09-12-2003).]

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#126844 - 09/12/03 10:33 AM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Shotokan,

The Aikido community already recognizes that there are different "styles" of Aikido which were taught by different deshi of O'Sensei. It is very common for the styles to be classified as pre-war and post-war, and yes, one of the characteristic differences is the emphasis on atemi.

Throughout his life Ueshiba changed his martial practices (this happens with all of us). He learned new arts and combined them to ultimately "create" his own art - Aikido. If you think his learning and evolving stopped at that point, you are welcome to your opinion.

Did the occupation after WWII affect martial arts, of course it did. Were there other forces throughout history that influenced martial arts and forced them either underground or to disguise technique, of course.

How do you think Capoera evolved?

I'm sure you know the origin of the sai, the kama and nunchucku. They were all farming implements used by farmers who weren't allowed to have "weapons".

Chris

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#126845 - 09/12/03 11:19 AM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well Chris it's good that you know that, but that wasn't my point. I know you people know about Aikido.

I am sorry maybe I should have explained my philosophy first when I started this post.

My point is this, everytime a martial art changes (not in a positive way to make it effective) it decreases it's combatant value. Aikido has under gone many negative changes (changes that took away from it's effectiveness). If we can reconstruct all of the negative changes we can move closer to the truth that the art holds.

As my friends did at the Shotkan Karate-Jitsu Academy. True Karate envolves locks, throws, pressure points, trapping etc...not that Karate we see nowadays. If you want to master an art you have to reconstruct what has been deconstructed from it. <<My philosophy feel free to agree to disagree. If you do not agree with this you are wasting your time reading my post.

To move closer to the truth we have to undo all of the negative changes that our arts have been subjected to.

I am not against post war Aikido, as long as the principles remain the same it is Aikido, what I am interested is the reconstruction of the truth (by the truth I mean move closer to a version of the art where all of the negative changes have been undone). <<It doesn't matter which version you choose be it different in terms of style, post war or pre-war, as long as the fundamental principles that define that art are present.

I am making a general statement about all martial arts especially the Japanese arts.
I did not, I repeat I did not get this idea from a website, it is my own philosophy, I only used websites that partially supported my veiw to compliment my argument and add to it's effectivenss. <<Right Raul? It's easier to use a website that you can visit than a book that you have to buy. You wouldn't find a book/website that totally supports may veiw, it is soley my own.

-Shotokan

If you cannot understand (not necessarily agree or disagree) my philosophy don't waste your time [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 09-12-2003).]

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#126846 - 09/12/03 06:17 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
OK Shotokan I think I can see where you are comming from. You are looking at the art as it exists today (modern) and trying to find the combative aspects that it used to employ in the feudal times (or when the art began)... am I correct?

In any case I feel that you are comparing apples to oranges. You seem to be looking at the DO arts and trying to find the combative applications. The DO arts were created to fit modern society (due to the abscence of daily violence). Emphasis strayed away from battlefield applications and moved towards spirituality, self discovery, character development... etc. Jutsu arts are meant for killing, disabling your opponent instantly on the battlefield.
You seem to be looking at the DO arts (Karate-do, Aiki-do, Ken-do, Iai-do, Ju-do) and attempting to find their "lost" combative applications. Practiioners of these systems are taught to look at their katas/techniques a different way than the practioners of the Jutsu arts. Quite frankly the creators of these DO systems wanted it that way.
All these DO arts have come from a Jutsu system which are still in existance today (Karate Jutsu, Aiki-jiujitsu [and certain sects of Aikido as stated by Senseilou and csinca], Kenjitsu, Iaijitsu, Jiujitsu).
It seems that you are unhappy with your Block/Punch system of Shotokan Karate-do and are trying to delve deeper to find the original principles. I suggest you find a jutsu system to help satisfy your martial thurst and spend less time making bold blanket statements.

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#126847 - 09/12/03 08:38 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Anonymous
Unregistered


[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG] :/

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 09-12-2003).]

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#126848 - 09/12/03 08:40 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Anonymous
Unregistered


Unhappy with Shotokan?
Bold Blankets statements?
Do arts (way)less effective that Ju arts (gentle)?

If Karate wasn't meant for killing well I'll be darned! Karate came from Ju Jitsu? I always thought I'd had alot of it's influence from Kung Fu and little influence from Ju Jitsu or Gentle Jitsu. It seems you are a bit biased toward the Ju arts. Kyusho is a key element of true Karate (chinese orgin) [The Chinese Hand]

Um at least you see where I am coming from (somewhat), I am happy enough with that [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

-Shotokan

True Karate is a complete self-defense system with strong emphasis on Atemi, but does not ignore Kansetsu Waza, and Kyusho, with hard and soft techniques. (Excludes ground work). Karate-Jitsu emphasizes Kansetsu more than Karate-Do.

The equation is more like this:

One part Okinawan - Kyusho
One part Japanese - Ju Jitsu
One part Chinese - Kung Fu

Even if I am wrong, Karate-Do or Karate-Jitsu, it's still Karate.

It is Karate I am interested in not Do or Jitsu in particular.

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 09-12-2003).]

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#126849 - 09/12/03 09:40 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Go into the martial arts talk forum for my reply.... titled "Shotokan"

[This message has been edited by Raul Perez (edited 09-12-2003).]

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#126850 - 09/12/03 10:24 PM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
I must add my two cents once again.

It is my firm belief that the implication that post-WWII aikido is somehow lacking is slanderous and false. Tohei Sensei, the founder of my style, the "softest style of aikido" was and is a badass. If one wants to try to argue that point, go for it, but you will have little to no fodder for your argument. He was the first aikidoka to attain 10th dan in aikido, and the first to spread aikido to the western world. How many other martial artists do you see now or ever accept the challenge from each champion judoka from each weight class to a randori. Tohei sensei is the only name that comes to mind, though I'm a relative beginner and maybe wrong. Please correct me if I am. Either way, it is my firm argument that "soft" does not equal "ineffective." As I have stated in other posts, my Ki Society Aikido has saved my ass on multilple occasions, even against muscle-bound bouncers set on showing my "hippie ass" a lesson. I'm a pacifist (please read differently from PASSIVEist). And as csinca has stated earlier I'm pretty happy with my style of aikido's incorporation or lack of atemi, depending how you look at it. To me, there is plenty of atemi in ki society. We are trained to duck out of the way to avoid injury, but alot of the atemi are slashes to the throat (which look like sword cuts) as well as blows to the face and other vital points. But that is not the point. The point of Aikido is that one need not be brutal to be effective. In fact, it is my argument that good aikido should not be brutal, but very effective. But again, it's all in how one trains in an art. While I am young and vigorous, rest assured that is how I will practice. I love incorporating non-traditonal aspects into my practice, but the philosophy remains the same. I may not be able to always keep this "pure" state of mind where I don't want to hurt even those who intend to hurt me, but it is a worthwhile goal, a goal that can keep you out of legal reprocutions lest you have to actually use your training in "real life." And we should not forget, that aikiDO is a lifelong path. Enough with my rant.

Joe.

[This message has been edited by Joe Jutsu (edited 09-12-2003).]

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#126851 - 09/13/03 08:38 AM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree, don't be brutal unless you have to. In most self-defense situations when someone is trying really hard to slice you ass, you have no choice.

-Shotokan

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#126852 - 10/01/03 05:07 AM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
padme Offline
Stranger

Registered: 10/01/03
Posts: 2
Loc: united kingdom
I practice both arts and I can honestly say that I see both forms as part of a continuum. In all martial arts the attack is not real - it can't be or we'd all be dead by now. So, that attack has to be limited in some way (by attacker controlling or by artificial additives - gloves etc.).
The atemi in aikido is not to simply distract the defender/attacker it is an attack but watered down.

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#126853 - 10/02/03 04:36 AM Re: Shotokan and Aikido
dazzler Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 296
Loc: England
Wow!

So much information here!

Some good - some not.

Ai-Ki-Do...By definition Aikido is fixed. (shock horror blasphemy) Harmonise the man using the principles of the Tao to create a manifestation of Ki via a form.

Not exactly my words but those of the longest practicing European Aikidoka. (started in 1952 I believe).

Aikido is what it is. 10,000 forms but each one striving to achieve the above.

To find this we repetitively practice the same moves to perfect them and when everything is in place we can achieve the mythical goal of Aikido anf have a form that contains Ki. Well maybe not all of us...

When I say everything in place I mean; (on a basic level)

Maai...distance
Kamai...call it positional relationship
Shisei..Posture
Kokyuho..breathing
Irimi...entering
Atemi...striking
Tenkan...Turning
Tai sabaki...Body movement
Kokyoho Rokyuho...Blending or harmonising

These are the bases of Aikido regardless of the form. You can have a great ikkyo with real power. But if you apply it by standing directly in front of uke your Kamai is bad and your gonna get hit. So not good Aiki.

If you apply the same without irimi to destroy ukes posture chances are a reverse elbow is on its way.

I describe it like the ingrdients of a cake (don't laugh ...I do)...Miss out the sugar and it just won't taste right.

So there is good and bad Aikido but the fault is not in the art but in its presentation...There are different ways to achieve and practice the forms to develop these bases above which will vary - everyone is unique with differnt physiques and personalities but the essence of Aikido cannot change.

I smile a bit at all the talk of O'Sensei changing Aikido. It cannot change.

Sure, He refined his teaching style..He will have matured with age. Sure he practiced 'harder' when he was younger...because he WAS younger!

But that doesn't mean everyone else has to practice like an old man...A point that was largely missed by those who choose to copy rather than understand the art.

On a philosophical level I remember being told to counter hard attacks with softer enveloping moves and visa-versa.

I don't for a second think this applies just to Aikido either.

Aikido is soft when it needs to be and hard when it needs to be...

Respect

D

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