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#126793 - 09/07/03 09:10 PM Aiki groundwork
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
I had someone claim to me the other day that there are some styles of aikido that do groundwork. Unfortunately, mine is not one of them. Does anyone know which styles (if any) work on applying aikido on the ground. I've read on this forum that some believe that aiki techniques can be applied from the ground, but I can only assume that one would need to practice them to be proficient at it. Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Joe.

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#126794 - 09/08/03 11:40 AM Re: Aiki groundwork
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Joe,

I train in an unaffiliated dojo that does practice groundwork. We've really only been training groundwork since the beginning of this year. I don't know of other stykes of aikido that regularly train groundwork but I'm sure you'll get other input...

Our groudwork applies the principles we use standing but use them lying down.

For instance, you need to lock uke's skeleton to use any of the ikkyo, nikkyo, kote type "techniques". The same is true on the ground, to control the other guy you need to control his skeleton.

You need to stay relaxed.

Secondary motion is very important.

Moving from the hips is even more important on the ground.

chris

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#126795 - 09/09/03 10:27 AM Re: Aiki groundwork
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
Thanks for the reply Chris.

That is cool that you're dojo is starting to do groundwork. Unfortunately, that is not the case in my dojo, where the attitude seems to be "stay mind and body coordinated and you will not have to face a situation where you will be wrestling on the ground."

Well, maybe Tohei Sensei never got taken down, but I'm not exactly Tohei. I have about one night open that I'm thinking about taking up another MA to improve my ground game. It looks like my options are Judo and Brazilian Ju Jitsu. I've heard that Judo can nicely compliment Aikido, but Brazilian Ju Jitsu is definitely more ground oriented. A concern that I have about Brazilian Ju Jitsu is that the Gracie's were awesome, but it doesn't seem like their students have reached anywhere close to that level, and I can't exactly travel to Brazil for lessons, unfortunately. And I have long dreadlocks, which I don't want to cut just to take up another MA. Would that be a problem in a BJJ club? If anyone could answer or give their input to these questions I'd be greatly appreciated.

Joe

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#126796 - 09/09/03 01:43 PM Re: Aiki groundwork
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
As for you hair, I'm sure you could find a way to keep it out of the way (headband, ponytail, etc.). Also, I just wanted to add my two cents, BJJ is not more ground oriented or better, depending on where you train. I posted a link on the Judo forum for the Judoinfo.com website. You can see much of the matwork demonstrated in videos on the website and also see BJJ athletes (Helio and Royce Gracie) fight with Judo athletes under the competition video section. I don't remember the direct link but if you go to the Judo forum under the topic BJJ (i think), you can veiw how effective Judo can be for grappling. Also, it would complement your Aikido better due to the underlying principle of Judo (use your opponent against himself, much like Aikido). If he pulls: push, if he pushes: pull...all about the harmony, not strength.

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#126797 - 09/09/03 01:51 PM Re: Aiki groundwork
immrtldragon Offline
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Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Correction: I posted the links under the "martial arts talk forum," under the topic "judo." Not that there is anything wrong with BJJ, I think Judo would be a better compliment.

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#126798 - 09/09/03 05:22 PM Re: Aiki groundwork
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Joe,

Good luck in your search. I have limited exposure to BJJ but the one thing I do like about what the Gracie's have done is they have formalized a strategy for groundwork that I'm just starting to understand. I don't have much to compare it against but from what I'm seeing, I like their teaching methods. The art itself I think is proven.

I recently played for an evening with a judoka. Initially he was putting me on my but but then I got the hang of what he was doing and we were stalemated. We never did go to the ground.

I guess I've never seen the judo ground game but I guess they have one.

In any case, I wouldn't recommend training where they "just wrestle" but rather find somewhere that is going to introduce the basics and some strategy.

If your ever in the San Diego area, let me know.

Chris

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#126799 - 09/09/03 05:25 PM Re: Aiki groundwork
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Oh yeah, about the hair. While long hair may make a good handle for someone to grab, keep in mind that as soon as they do that one of their hands is now occupied and can't defend against your hand.... Keep busy and make them pay for grabbing your hair [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Chris

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#126800 - 09/09/03 06:08 PM Re: Aiki groundwork
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
Thanks for your replies guys.

Chris- You made me laugh. If someone grabs a handful of locks there will be hell to pay!
If I'm in the San Diego area I will definitely let you know. A good friend of mine just moved out to Santa Cruz to go to grad school, which is a ways away still but who knows? I'm definitely feeling a pull to go out west.

I guess my best plan of action at this point would be to go and watch/participate in a few sessions of both arts. I'm lucky enough to have access to both a judo and a bjj club at my university (and aikido of course! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] ).

I guess I'll keep you posted but anymore thoughts on the subject are always most appreciated.

Arigato

Joe.

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#126801 - 09/09/03 10:49 PM Re: Aiki groundwork
Anonymous
Unregistered


Bjj does not use strength.By actualy rolling, you learn to feel your opponents weight,where there posted,and if they shift it.Bjj is probably about 70%-80% groundwork.
for more info goto www.gracie.com ,or do a google search for brazilian jujitsu.

ps.bjj is based off of pre WWII judo.

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#126802 - 09/09/03 10:56 PM Re: Aiki groundwork
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
Thanks for your post nekogami-

Forgive me if I'm asking the wrong person, but how is pre WWII Judo different from post. I know a bit of how aikido "evolved" over the war, but I have zero experience in judo and know little of its history.

Thanks,

Joe.

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#126803 - 09/10/03 07:46 PM Re: Aiki groundwork
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
its my understanding (albeit limited) that the prewar judo situation can be likened to the prewar aiki situation.
originally judo was not a sport, it was jujutsu by another name, the kodokan was developed to perserve jujutsu because of a lack of interest in the old arts, so jigoro kano removed some of the more lethal techniques that couldnt be safely practiced by all, especially kids in the school system and called it judo instead of jujutsu because its aim was to make you a better person more than life or death combat. but it still was very combat effective and the kodokan defeated many jujutsu ryu in competitions (although the results may have been different if the jujutsuka were allowed to use all of their techniques)...i think if kano were alive to see todays judo, hed die again instantly.

"After watching a Judo tournament, Kano reportedly gathered the participants together and told them:

"You fought like young bulls locking horns; there was nothing refined or dignified about any of the techniques I witnessed today. I never taught anyone to do Kodokan Judo like that. If all you can think about is winning through brute strength, that will be the end of Kodokan Judo."

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#126804 - 09/10/03 10:16 PM Re: Aiki groundwork
Anonymous
Unregistered


agree with kempo, the difference was the removal of techniques-such as grapevining, less emphasis on ground fighting, etc. Post war more olympic rules oriented.

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#126805 - 10/25/03 02:43 AM Re: Aiki groundwork
Lowdown Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 86
Loc: singapore
aikido could be useful on the ground.but, u got to think outside the box u cant stay inside the aikido form.try buying some books about ground fighting.

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#126806 - 10/25/03 08:39 PM Re: Aiki groundwork
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
but i think the real question is...especially from aikido practitioners....is it really possible to use the principle of aiki on the ground, i have read more about aiki and one definition of aiki (from a daito ryu instructor) is that aiki is creating a situation where the opponent is helpless to regain his balance by blending with and disrupting his motion...so he cant help but fall down.
if he is already down, aiki becomes nil by this definition...and as some have said there really isnt much momentum on the ground, you cant throw someone who is on the ground.
of course aikijujutsu practitioners can get away with it because what they do is jujutsu AND aiki...or jujutsu techniques in the beginning, then later they add the principle of aiki to those techniques...and at the highest levels its pure aiki. at least thats how it was explained to me.
so if you are an akido-ka...and you practice groundwork...is it still aikido?
dont get me wrong...it doesnt really matter to me, i say everyone should do groundwork...just would like some opinions.
in this situation i think it would be easy to differentiat the two as well...so your aikido is still aikido...you just do groundwork on top (or below actually)or..in addition to your aikido.

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#126807 - 10/25/03 11:39 PM Re: Aiki groundwork
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Kempo,

I guess it depends on your definitions for aiki or aikido. If you take the first part of your definition "aiki is creating a situation where the opponent is helpless to regain his balance by blending with and disrupting his motion" and don't worry about whether the guys falls or not, than certainly you can...

Think of the four principles from Ki Society (I'm not Ki Society so I apologise if I don't get them exact)
- Extend Ki
- Relax Completely
- Weight underside
- Maintain Onepoint

If you can get a top position on the ground and start applying the last three. Just relax, maintain your balance and let your full dead weight sit on the guy, you will go a long way to controlling their motion. You've used great "aiki principles" and have created a base to work from.

When the guy under you tries to roll and get you off the top position, roll with him (go with his momentum) and roll through the bottom position and keep going till you get back to the top position. Remember he is giving enough energy to get you moving and his target is staying on top. He isn't expecting you to allow him to roll, much less add a bit to it.

Alternately, you find your opponent going for an armbar... most reactions are to try to "curl" the arm using the bicep to counter the hyper extension. Now you are violating aiki and using an isolated muscle group... Rather use the aiki principle of relaxing and moving from somewhere else, move your shoulder away from your hand, this will tend to slide your arm out of the armbar...It's hard to describe this but I've done it against some BJJ guys and it works nicely.

As for whether it's still aikido, I've recently given up caring about the label. What difference does it make. If you are in an aikido dojo and you start playing with groundwork, the walls won't fall in, certificates and belts don't spontaneously combust. If you think groundwork is important and your dojo isn't working on it, go somewhere that does and learn it.

My idea of aiki is along the lines of:
- not blocking the intent of the attack but redirecting it; or moving or replacing the target the target
- not forcing my intent, but flowing from movement to movement
- trying to observe sound principles
- trying to stay relaxed

I don't consider whether it's a verbal attack or physical, or whether we are standing apart, clinched or on the ground...


I hope this helps or is at least interesting

Chris

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#126808 - 10/25/03 11:43 PM Re: Aiki groundwork
Anonymous
Unregistered


aikido is modified jujitsu. The locks and throws are basicly the same.The big difference is in philosophy.If you are able to use aikido principles(philosophy)in any situation,whether on the ground or not, wouldn't it be aikido?

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#126809 - 10/26/03 01:53 AM Re: Aiki groundwork
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Once again, you are talking semantics. Brazillians brought their style of Jujutsu out in the late 80's early 90's but the art itself is much older. The elder Gracie learned his Jujutsu from a Japannese gentleman and ameneded it to fit the Brazillian lifestyle. If you trained with any of the true Brazillians, they would tell you that someone would fight you for a pair of tennis shoes if he liked them, and they would wrestle in the middle of a street or mall if needed. Brazillian law is somewhat laxed as well. My first Brazillian Jujutsu Sensei got arrested at a mall because he got in an argument and when the person punched he took him to the ground and pounded him. The police felt this was excessive and arrested him for defending himself in a fight. Sensei didn't realize you can't do that sort of thing here. If you look at the mind set of Brazillian Jujutsu it is 100% opposite of Aiki(not that it matters). One of my Sensei says you can use Aiki principle in everything you do, especially any style of martial art, but it doesn't make it Aikido.(not that it matters). So when I do a Karate waza, or even a Lua waza, and let the attack go by, and initiate a throw, I am using Aiki principle but it doesn't mean I am doing Aikido. Once again, I too get tired of the labeling, this is this, this is that. When I first started teaching seminars I use to give credit to the art and teacher I got the technique from. All it did was have people pre-judge the technique based on their knowledge of what is going on. I stopped that, and now really don't care what you call it, and I tailor what I do for the audience that I have. In all honesty, I would not teach BJJ or Sambo or any ground base art to an Aikido school, it may compliment what they do, but the approach to the technique would take something away from it. Chris's arm bar has two sides to this, one you could go with this, and try to escape, a more Aiki approach, or start grounding and pounding and get the original arm bar. This is not so much Aiki. So I think an Aiki approach on the ground would lessen or takeaway some of the aspects of it being BJJ or Sambo if you were to always apply Aiki in this scenario. If one wants Aiki, do Aiki-if one wants groundwork, try BJJ or Sambo. I really don't think one should try to mix the 2

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#126810 - 10/26/03 03:36 PM Re: Aiki groundwork
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
good one sensei lou, on one hand it doesnt matter, on one hand it does. i agree aiki and aikido are not the same thing, aikido is an art, aiki is a principle that can be(and usually already is) part of most if not all martial arts.

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#126811 - 11/01/03 07:03 AM Re: Aiki groundwork
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I'm not so sure I could agree kempo. No doubt many arts use principles of ai, others use ki and some maybe even use ai and ki. But I think aiki arts are unique in using aiki in the way aikido/aiki jujutsu do. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Budo

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#126812 - 11/02/03 06:22 AM Re: Aiki groundwork
kempo_jujitsu Offline
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Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
my point....aiki is a principle not an art.
besides cato...you never agree with me. i think most people disagree with me most of the time....oh well lol
i think aiki as a principle is in all arts to some extent, maybe very little, but still there, even though the entire art is not based on aiki.
after all aiki means blending with your opponents movements....all arts do that. granted not to the extent a specific AIKI artform does.

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#126813 - 11/02/03 12:05 PM Re: Aiki groundwork
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
At the risk of being boringly predictable, I have to disagree once again, kempo [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Ai and Ki MAY be used in some arts, but certainly not all. And Aiki is, in my opinion, exclusive to aiki arts. I have seen some arts that deal with attacks in a similar way to aikido, but there are always derived from aiki arts themselves. Other, more percursive arts most certainly do not use aiki. Most don't even use ai.

Budo

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#126814 - 11/03/03 12:17 AM Re: Aiki groundwork
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Aiki is not mutually exclusive to just Aiki arts or have the roots of Aiki Arts. Kosho Shoerei Kempo or most commonly called Kosho Ryu Kempo employs not only Aiki Principle but Aiki movement. Also if one knows Aiki principle it can be APPLIED to any art, but it does not make it Aikido or Aiki-Jujutsu. I think too much is made of this is this, that art is that. An open mind can see aspects of all arts. One will see what he has in his background when viewing an art. So when an Aiki person sees Silant, he can see Aiki if his mind will let him. How else can you explain the art of Aiki-Kempo Jutsu of Japan. I am not familiar with its lineage, but I understand that it was developed by a member of the Ueshiba clan, a grand nephew or cousin or something. This art combines Aiki with Okinawan Kempo. Its hard to say the Shorinji Ryu Kempo or Shorinji Ryu Jujutsu created by Doshin So has Aiki roots, yet the very movements of the art are very Aiki.
The bottom line is there are 3 componets in every martial arts engagement-action-reaction-counteraction. Everyone has their own specified reactions to certain attacks, their counteractions are what dictate what they do. There is a Shito Ryu Karate techniqe where you turn tenkan, elbow the kidneys, kick the back of the groin and forearm throw from the rear. When the technique is observed, the tenkan motion is most defintely Aiki, however the rest of the technique isn't. However, if you do the tenkan, leave the kick and elbow strike out, and just forearm throw from behind its an Aiki technique-done very well by Professor Moses Powell and Shioda Shihan. Its really hard to argue what is Aiki and not until you have viewed all styles and how they approach their art.

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#126815 - 11/03/03 02:52 AM Re: Aiki groundwork
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I've met a lot of people who gave difficulty in seeing the difference between "ai" and "ju" as principles. If someone includes a tenkan movement in their art that doesn't mean they are doing even ai, let alone aiki!!! Aikido is widely acknowledged as a difficult art to learn because aiki is a difficult concept to understand, and even more difficult to employ effectively. I take it that doesn't hold true outside of aikido then, where everyone is happily using aiki in their art with no apparent difficulties in learning or using it? Perhaps O'sensei got it all wrong?

Most MA don't in fact use the principles of aiki. Any Karate I've ever seen at most uses Ju and ki, but more often only uses ki alone. Kempo uses mainly ju. To include aiki in a percursive art is not only a difficult marriage but also an exercise in the pointless. The philosphies of striking arts and aiki arts are totally different and require a totally different approach and mindset. The example of Doshin So and Shorinji kempo is a very good illustration of this. Doshin So openly acknowledged that he borrowed techniques and principles from aikido when forming his art, and he subsequently split the training and application of his art into two very distinct sets, hard and soft. He wasn't able to join aiki with kempo to form one style, the art switches between the two. Hapkido does the same. Both these arts are derived from aiki arts.

I've never heard of aiki-kempo before but it kind of begs the question that if kempo already uses aiki what is this art all about?? There seems to be a massive contradiction somewhere here. Wouldn't it be like calling an art aiki-aikido? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

I'm not making any great claims for aiki, other than it is my preferred style, and every art has its merits and shortfalls, but I think it is stretching the point to suggest every art extant uses the principles of aiki. Don't forget that in feudal times the Japanese thought it worth closely guarding the concept, and it is only in relatively modern times that aiki has been taught to a wider audience. There would be little point in keeping secret something that everyone else already knows about and does, wouldn't there.

Budo

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#126816 - 11/03/03 03:48 AM Re: Aiki groundwork
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
who says the japanese invented aiki in the first place....lol if i had to take a guess id say it probably came from china...bagua zhang is a likely candidate.
aikido is ALL aiki....other arts are not JUST aiki...aikijujutsu for example.
just because you use aiki, doesnt meant you are limited to studying and employind ONLY aiki. this is only true in aikido i guess [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]
which is why i said that aiki is not an art its a principle, a way of looking at things...an option if you will. aikido is an art that is based solely on this concept, that does not mean that other arts dont employ aiki on occasion, although it may not be the cornerstone of their style or system.

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#126817 - 11/03/03 11:53 AM Re: Aiki groundwork
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
In all honesty, I don't think Cato has actually trained in Kempo or Shorinji Kempo, I don't mean a seminar here and there, I mean train. No disrespect here, but his insight is based on his view of Aiki and not on the opposite side. To say Kempo employs Ju is absolutely wrong, there is no Ju in any of the Kempo arts. However after studying Kosho Ryu Kempo for over 6 years and Aikido for almost 10, they are not only similar, but have the same principles and concepts. However you will never convince someone of this until they actually train in it. For historical sake, Ueshiba Sensei and Mitose Sensei were good friends and both shared information with one another. Mitose Sensei quotes O'Sensei in discussing Nage waza, and actually employs more principles than Ueshiba did, but in no way did he steal Aiki roots. In Doshin So, I don't know where you get your information, but once again I don't think you have trained in the art. You claim he separates things and its 2 separate arts, yet its one art with different componets. Just like Aikido has Nage waza and Katame waza, different componets but the same art. I can show you any Aikido technique, take the Ai out and its a Jujutsu technique. Same is true in other styles, I can put the Ai in and make it an Aikido technique if I choose. there is a saying that you can make statistics say anything you want, put any spin you want on them and have something look good. A fighter can be 12-6 but you can say he is 12-0 on fights after the 10 round, which could mean he got his ass knocked out 6 times in the first round. People do the same thing about the art they study. Its fine with me, people can think what they will, but its not fair to say other styles are or aren't other things without having trained in them. As for the Aiki thing being Japaneese, look at the internal arts of China, look at forms of Chin Na and look at Bhag Wa(?) and you can make a great argument that Aiki was around long before O'Sensei brought it out and made an art with it.I also just read an article and talked with a Japaneese Sensei that said O Sensei was not happy with Tohei Sensei's use of Ki and he really didn't understand the Ki in Aikido. If that is the case, I am wondering how many people really don't understand the Ki in Aikido, but make it say what they want.

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#126818 - 11/03/03 06:10 PM Re: Aiki groundwork
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
So the only people who can have an opinion on an art are those who have trained in them?? Absolute bollocks if you ask me. Following that logic you still couldn't comment on an art unless you trained in every variant of that art and with every teacher of it. Utter crap, and not a good tenet to base an argument on.

To say there is no Ju in kempo is ludicrous. I have actually trained in kempo jujutsu (sorry, didn't mean to rain on anyone's parade) and I'm amazed at such a statement, but each to their own. I can only speak from my own experience, and that experience is that I have trained in and seen a good few variants of kempo, and I have never seen it done using the principles of aiki as they are found in aikido/aiki jutsu.

Shorinji kempo seems to be the style that's being bandied about so let's stick with it for now. I'm actually very happy to do so because it suits my argument. I've never trained in it, but I know people who have and I've discussed it with them. My information comes from them. The art is separated into two approaches, hard and soft. The important point here is that they are two distinct approaches. Clearly that is very different from separating an art along the lines of techniques. In aikido pins are separated from throws, but both employ the same approach. That is not true in Shorinji kempo, where the approach differs between hard and soft. This is in turn important because it illustrates the difficulty in approaching a "hard" art from an aiki perspective. Aiki does not lend itself to striking techniques particularly well, so it makes little sense for striking arts to use aiki principles. The principles of karate are excellent for striking. Why add principles that aren't?

Arts like shorinji kempo are founded on the basis that a man can (and should) take control of what happens to him in life, he is the master and author of his own destiny. This is reflected in the techniques. Aiki techniques are the total opposite, the attacker controls the actions of the defender, if only inasmuch that he dictates which techniques can and can't be used to counter the force of his attack. Why on earth would a kempo practitioner want a set of principles in his art that contradict its most basic assumptions??

Budo

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#126819 - 11/04/03 03:03 AM Re: Aiki groundwork
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
i have trained in kempo jujutsu, as well as a little ryukyu kempo karate.
"Aiki does not lend itself to striking techniques particularly well, so it makes little sense for striking arts to use aiki principles. The principles of karate are excellent for striking. Why add principles that aren't?"
yet aikijujutsu is considered an aiki art? why is that, it contains strikes, kicks, etc....hence aiki is but an option! not every aikijujutsu technique is pure aiki.
second...karate is not merely a striking art.
senseilou said ju is not used in any form of kempo (or something like that)...i disagree, many techniques in kata use ju. some even look exactly like judo or jujutsu techniques.
however i think its kind of silly to refer to kempo on terms like that...as kempo doesnt designate a style, or even a method really...all martial arts could be called kempo (fist method)..infact many of them have been.

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#126820 - 11/04/03 03:37 AM Re: Aiki groundwork
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Kempo, From what I have learnt, there are no kicks in classical aikijujutsu, and the strikes are always part of a technique, not an end in themselves. It would, so I'm told, have been foolhardy in the extreme for a samurai in armour to start trying to kick or punch his equally well armoured and usually armed opponent into submission. Instead he waited for the attack and then applied his technique, which was nearly always a throw or takedown followed by a lock which allowed him to use his wakasashi or tanto to finish his opponent. It was very rare for two samurai to fight hand to hand in battle, so the need for strikes and kicks is less than it is for some other arts.

Kicks would leave the samurai off balance and vulnerable when he was wearing armour, and there efficacy would be questionable in any event, and strikes are directed toward very specific targets where the armour of an opponent is weakest, such as at the joints where it has to allow for movement. Strikes to the face/head would be pointless against someone wearing a kobuto. No doubt modern aikijujutsu does use such techniques, but they are an addition to the art and you know what I think about that [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

There are of course only so many ways in which you can defend an attack, and there is bound to be a great deal of apparent similarity between different arts. No doubt very similar styles grew up in China or elsewhere in Asia, but aiki is a Japanese term that is used to describe a Japanese understanding and interpretation of the principles and is, in my view, unique to aiki arts. You may think that is just a lot of semantics, but I think it runs much deeper than that.

That is my understanding, one that I have built up over a few years training and looking at other arts along the way and it is shared by my sensei. If you want to tell me I'm wrong that's fine, but I will need convincing of it. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Budo

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#126821 - 11/04/03 11:08 AM Re: Aiki groundwork
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I decided to do some research and called 3 people who are 1st generation students in the Kempo arts, one Ed Parkers Kempo, one Shaolin Kempo and the other, my dear friend Professor Kimo of Kempo Jujutsu. It was real interesting on what they had to say(though I know Cato is not interested in what the seniors have to say)The Professor from Ed Parkers system, who was one of Ed Parkers first Black Belts assured me that "ju' was not an INTENTION of Ed Parker. However, that is not to say its not practiced this way. He explained that Ed Parker taught on a highly sophisticated, scientific level. Many people didn't understand, took the techniques and kata and ran. With as many people training in his style of Kempo, many people have put their own influence into Ed Parkers Kempo and there may be some who practice this way, though not the INTENTION when it was founded. Very few schools practice Ed Parkers 'levels of understanding' but teach kata and self defense techniques and sparring, all are components but the meat of the art is being left out. He had 2 other good points.
1. If people want to believe their own ideas let them, you aren't going to change their minds over the internet. He likened this to the tenets of religion, how many people are you going to convert over the internet? Let them think what they want!
2. The internet has given way to a platform for peoples opinion. In the old days, if you wanted an opinion, Sensei gave you one(now this will really get Cato going as he believes that Sensei doesn't mean better)In the old days, you did what you were told, and didn't offer an opinion, because you didn't have one. Today people see what they want, and assign judgements to this, without the inner workings of what they discuss. So much of what you read is bullshit. Amen.
Professor went on to say that people train in the same art and highlight aspects of that art. Kajukempo is a great example. Some concentrate on the Kempo, others the Jujutsu some the original Chineese roots, so Kajukembo has become subject for interpretation. He said he has seen many 'styles' of Ed Parker Kempo and there is no telling someone there aren't seeing what they are. As for the kata question, the purpose was to work your techniques alone as all Ed Parker kata is made up of techniques and is not really subject to Bunkai, and you are fighting your opponent. You may do this with "ju" but it was not the INTENT.
The Shaolin Sensei assured me the only "ju" in Kempo was Alan Goldberg(which I found amusing)He too said there are different ways to practice the art, but the focus is not "ju" but actually the opposite, overwhelming the attack, not blending to it. His analogy was fighting fire with a volcano, certainly not a gentle approach. He also said "don't lay with the dogs because you'll end up with fleas" I actually understand that now.
Finally my good friend Professor Kimo Ferraria, one of the founders of Kempo Jujutsu. He had some great points,
1. What kind of Kempo are we talking about? Okinawan Kempo is most certainly "ju" oriented, and is practiced with "ju". Hawaiian Kempo and its derivatives certainly aren't. But he stresses also, interpretation, how one views it and how one does it. Professor Kimo who is close friends with Chosi Motobu Shihan and goes to Japan on a monthly basis says we are too hung up on terms and how we define them. He used my art and said "do you block, or pari and accept the attack?" We do indeed pari and accept ukes attack, which Professors says is "Ai" yet not practicing Aikido. Too much emphasis on terms. He also says that when you do irimi, which Motobu Sensei stresses, it can be done with Ai as harmonizing energies, accepting attacks but not allowing them. Therefore striking is Ai." If you don't believe this, look at O'Sensei, he did atemi waza. I just read in one of the posts criticizing striking as not being Ai, or Aiki or Aikido yet the very founder did it AND on a regular basis. So what we have here is this, if O'Sensei does atemi waza its Aikido, but if Motobu Sensei does it its Karate. They both do Irimi and do it strong, yet by classification one is Ai the other isn't.
Here is the bottom line, I am not here to argue, and that is all that is being done. Here this thread was about Aiki and groundwork, yet there is a discussion on Ai. You guys make Aikido or Aiki or whatever what you want it to be. One minute you claim Aikido has strikes and defend it as a good striking art, then turn around and say Aiki is not condusive for striking. You say groundwork goes against the principles of Aiki, then tell how to use it on the ground. When it comes to Aiki, its the panacea, its everything you want it to be, yet its not what you don't want it to be. As Professor Kimo says, its all bullshit, it doesn't matter, what matters is what happens in the dojo, on the street and what you can do with your art.Aiki has its place in the Martial Arts, but it is not everything you want it to be, it can't employ striking one minute and not condusive the next. It is what it is, and I for one am tired of all the rhetoric, I am starting to itch!!!!!!

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#126822 - 11/04/03 07:43 PM Re: Aiki groundwork
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Back to Joe's original topic...

Anyone care to share an aikido principle that works standing but won't work on the ground?

Chris

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#126823 - 11/05/03 02:09 AM Re: Aiki groundwork
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Not really Chris, we're having too much fun here [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

senseilou, I'm interested in what everyone has to say, seniors or juniors. I don't dismiss what a junior has to say because I think I'm better than they are, although I know some people do. Similarly, I don't necessarily believe everything I'm told by a senior just because s/he is my senior. Unlike your apparent view on it, I think they are just people who happen to be good at, and quite knowledgable about MA, not demi-gods with the power to tell me what to think and when to think it. Their opinions are their opinions. Ask five "experts" on anything the same question and you'll probably get five different answers. Everyone sees things according to their own agenda, you and I are just the same. To unconditionally believe all that someone tells you simply because they are your senior is plainly stupid. You can respect someone without idolising them, and I don't go in for all this MA hero worship. I also respect myself and think for myself. If that is bad then I'm a bad person. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

All of the sensei I have worked with are very good at what they do, yet most if not all will have less practical experience of using their art than I do. Why should I ignore my own experiences in favour of their "wisdom" ? Should I accept that they know all there is to know about their subject, or should I consider them as being further along the path than me, but still not infallible? I can learn from them, and I can (should?) also legitimately question their teachings and form my own opinion. That is what the MA are all about: growing as a person and not living in the shadow of other people.

3 masters, 3 different opinions. What does that tell us [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

budo

[This message has been edited by Cato (edited 11-05-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Cato (edited 11-05-2003).]

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#126824 - 10/14/04 04:33 PM Re: Aiki groundwork
Anonymous
Unregistered


A lable is meaningless out of context. I call what I breathe air. If there is a different word for in in China, then they should not get to claim when I breathe isn't air - but their word for the same thing.

I do agree that aiki is deeper than what many people are thinking of harmony + energy. The surface level understandind probably exists many places. The deeper understanding probably exists in really great karate men like Hwang Kee - but it is extremely rare.

I generally like what senseilou has to say, but in this case, I like Cato's point about taking opinions from both seniors and juniors and judging for yourself.

In a forum there is no rank - by definition. The fact that someone (who generally has a lot of good things to say) calls himself sensei anything in a forum is an unforunate mistake. It lends credibility to Cato's arguement that senseilou seems to think that higher rank should be listened to more than lower rank. In my opinion, this is a misunderstanding of the Japanese Sempai-Kohai system which is founded on the concept of the wa - keeping the peace, interpersonally, within yourself, the peace of the room, and globaly. This is what aikido is about to me. In a forum, if someone picks on other people, then watch out - you are now open yourself. This is not a dojo. You have no rank here. Everyone's opinion is ranked the same excpet that you do get more respect in a forum by consistently posting useful information.

As far as aiki coming from China - maybe 1/3. But then didn't they get martial movements from India? The original sword work done by the Japanese is unique to that people and that should get 1/3 credit as well. The last 1/3 has to go to O-sensei's study of the kotodama. This is purely Japanese. Now here is the kicker, it seems that the Japanese race came from Korea according to the latest DNA evidence... So what does that mean?! (It means the term honjin - orignal man is not necessarily the best description!)

I always get a kick out of the fact that every asian I met in America who ever watched one of my aikido classes came up to me and told me that their race invented martial arts! I suppose, to some extent they must be right.

I really don't know anyting about kempo other than it is very efective - and if the teacher is not very humble it tends to create dangerous punk kids.

I can say that I've been teachign aikido for over 10 years now, and I still don't like the term sensei and I try to avoid it as much as possible. I think the proper term for me would be fuku shioduen (sp?) but I'm not up on those kind of specifics...

Rob

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#126825 - 10/15/04 10:40 AM Re: Aiki groundwork
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by nekogami13:
aikido is modified jujitsu. The locks and throws are basicly the same.[/QUOTE]

I think either you have only experienced very low level aikido and/or I must have only experienced very low level jujitsu. Where can I go se the jujitsu you are talking about? If I am in the area smoeday, I would like to make it a point to stop by.

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