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#126803 - 09/10/03 07:46 PM Re: Aiki groundwork
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
its my understanding (albeit limited) that the prewar judo situation can be likened to the prewar aiki situation.
originally judo was not a sport, it was jujutsu by another name, the kodokan was developed to perserve jujutsu because of a lack of interest in the old arts, so jigoro kano removed some of the more lethal techniques that couldnt be safely practiced by all, especially kids in the school system and called it judo instead of jujutsu because its aim was to make you a better person more than life or death combat. but it still was very combat effective and the kodokan defeated many jujutsu ryu in competitions (although the results may have been different if the jujutsuka were allowed to use all of their techniques)...i think if kano were alive to see todays judo, hed die again instantly.

"After watching a Judo tournament, Kano reportedly gathered the participants together and told them:

"You fought like young bulls locking horns; there was nothing refined or dignified about any of the techniques I witnessed today. I never taught anyone to do Kodokan Judo like that. If all you can think about is winning through brute strength, that will be the end of Kodokan Judo."

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#126804 - 09/10/03 10:16 PM Re: Aiki groundwork
Anonymous
Unregistered


agree with kempo, the difference was the removal of techniques-such as grapevining, less emphasis on ground fighting, etc. Post war more olympic rules oriented.

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#126805 - 10/25/03 02:43 AM Re: Aiki groundwork
Lowdown Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 86
Loc: singapore
aikido could be useful on the ground.but, u got to think outside the box u cant stay inside the aikido form.try buying some books about ground fighting.

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#126806 - 10/25/03 08:39 PM Re: Aiki groundwork
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
but i think the real question is...especially from aikido practitioners....is it really possible to use the principle of aiki on the ground, i have read more about aiki and one definition of aiki (from a daito ryu instructor) is that aiki is creating a situation where the opponent is helpless to regain his balance by blending with and disrupting his motion...so he cant help but fall down.
if he is already down, aiki becomes nil by this definition...and as some have said there really isnt much momentum on the ground, you cant throw someone who is on the ground.
of course aikijujutsu practitioners can get away with it because what they do is jujutsu AND aiki...or jujutsu techniques in the beginning, then later they add the principle of aiki to those techniques...and at the highest levels its pure aiki. at least thats how it was explained to me.
so if you are an akido-ka...and you practice groundwork...is it still aikido?
dont get me wrong...it doesnt really matter to me, i say everyone should do groundwork...just would like some opinions.
in this situation i think it would be easy to differentiat the two as well...so your aikido is still aikido...you just do groundwork on top (or below actually)or..in addition to your aikido.

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#126807 - 10/25/03 11:39 PM Re: Aiki groundwork
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Kempo,

I guess it depends on your definitions for aiki or aikido. If you take the first part of your definition "aiki is creating a situation where the opponent is helpless to regain his balance by blending with and disrupting his motion" and don't worry about whether the guys falls or not, than certainly you can...

Think of the four principles from Ki Society (I'm not Ki Society so I apologise if I don't get them exact)
- Extend Ki
- Relax Completely
- Weight underside
- Maintain Onepoint

If you can get a top position on the ground and start applying the last three. Just relax, maintain your balance and let your full dead weight sit on the guy, you will go a long way to controlling their motion. You've used great "aiki principles" and have created a base to work from.

When the guy under you tries to roll and get you off the top position, roll with him (go with his momentum) and roll through the bottom position and keep going till you get back to the top position. Remember he is giving enough energy to get you moving and his target is staying on top. He isn't expecting you to allow him to roll, much less add a bit to it.

Alternately, you find your opponent going for an armbar... most reactions are to try to "curl" the arm using the bicep to counter the hyper extension. Now you are violating aiki and using an isolated muscle group... Rather use the aiki principle of relaxing and moving from somewhere else, move your shoulder away from your hand, this will tend to slide your arm out of the armbar...It's hard to describe this but I've done it against some BJJ guys and it works nicely.

As for whether it's still aikido, I've recently given up caring about the label. What difference does it make. If you are in an aikido dojo and you start playing with groundwork, the walls won't fall in, certificates and belts don't spontaneously combust. If you think groundwork is important and your dojo isn't working on it, go somewhere that does and learn it.

My idea of aiki is along the lines of:
- not blocking the intent of the attack but redirecting it; or moving or replacing the target the target
- not forcing my intent, but flowing from movement to movement
- trying to observe sound principles
- trying to stay relaxed

I don't consider whether it's a verbal attack or physical, or whether we are standing apart, clinched or on the ground...


I hope this helps or is at least interesting

Chris

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#126808 - 10/25/03 11:43 PM Re: Aiki groundwork
Anonymous
Unregistered


aikido is modified jujitsu. The locks and throws are basicly the same.The big difference is in philosophy.If you are able to use aikido principles(philosophy)in any situation,whether on the ground or not, wouldn't it be aikido?

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#126809 - 10/26/03 01:53 AM Re: Aiki groundwork
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Once again, you are talking semantics. Brazillians brought their style of Jujutsu out in the late 80's early 90's but the art itself is much older. The elder Gracie learned his Jujutsu from a Japannese gentleman and ameneded it to fit the Brazillian lifestyle. If you trained with any of the true Brazillians, they would tell you that someone would fight you for a pair of tennis shoes if he liked them, and they would wrestle in the middle of a street or mall if needed. Brazillian law is somewhat laxed as well. My first Brazillian Jujutsu Sensei got arrested at a mall because he got in an argument and when the person punched he took him to the ground and pounded him. The police felt this was excessive and arrested him for defending himself in a fight. Sensei didn't realize you can't do that sort of thing here. If you look at the mind set of Brazillian Jujutsu it is 100% opposite of Aiki(not that it matters). One of my Sensei says you can use Aiki principle in everything you do, especially any style of martial art, but it doesn't make it Aikido.(not that it matters). So when I do a Karate waza, or even a Lua waza, and let the attack go by, and initiate a throw, I am using Aiki principle but it doesn't mean I am doing Aikido. Once again, I too get tired of the labeling, this is this, this is that. When I first started teaching seminars I use to give credit to the art and teacher I got the technique from. All it did was have people pre-judge the technique based on their knowledge of what is going on. I stopped that, and now really don't care what you call it, and I tailor what I do for the audience that I have. In all honesty, I would not teach BJJ or Sambo or any ground base art to an Aikido school, it may compliment what they do, but the approach to the technique would take something away from it. Chris's arm bar has two sides to this, one you could go with this, and try to escape, a more Aiki approach, or start grounding and pounding and get the original arm bar. This is not so much Aiki. So I think an Aiki approach on the ground would lessen or takeaway some of the aspects of it being BJJ or Sambo if you were to always apply Aiki in this scenario. If one wants Aiki, do Aiki-if one wants groundwork, try BJJ or Sambo. I really don't think one should try to mix the 2

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#126810 - 10/26/03 03:36 PM Re: Aiki groundwork
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
good one sensei lou, on one hand it doesnt matter, on one hand it does. i agree aiki and aikido are not the same thing, aikido is an art, aiki is a principle that can be(and usually already is) part of most if not all martial arts.

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#126811 - 11/01/03 07:03 AM Re: Aiki groundwork
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I'm not so sure I could agree kempo. No doubt many arts use principles of ai, others use ki and some maybe even use ai and ki. But I think aiki arts are unique in using aiki in the way aikido/aiki jujutsu do. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Budo

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#126812 - 11/02/03 06:22 AM Re: Aiki groundwork
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
my point....aiki is a principle not an art.
besides cato...you never agree with me. i think most people disagree with me most of the time....oh well lol
i think aiki as a principle is in all arts to some extent, maybe very little, but still there, even though the entire art is not based on aiki.
after all aiki means blending with your opponents movements....all arts do that. granted not to the extent a specific AIKI artform does.

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