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#126613 - 08/06/03 04:29 PM Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't know why people say Aikido is soft.

Being a Shotokan man, I know kicking high in a real fight isn't wise. Kicking is used mostly for stopping the opponent. Best when combine with trapping and even when combined with locking. I wouldn't waste my time kicking below the waist the only point worth kicking when fighting someone bigger is the groin.

Kicking was effective in the fights of the old days when the sword and the staff was used. It was a great tool to reach the opponent while keeping at bay.

That leaves me with the devastating punches, the blocking, pivoting, trapping, elbows and knees. <<That's all we've got!

I don't why people say Karate is hard and Aikido is soft. When it comes to the street the Aikido practioner has the advantage because he has more (useful and realistic) tools at his disposal: Throws, locks, resistance training, takedowns, elbows, knees, blocking, devastating punches, pivoting, trapping.

No offense to other karate practioners but this is just my opinion.

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 08-06-2003).]

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#126614 - 08/07/03 01:59 AM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I am not sure what kind of Aikido you have seen, but in all my years I never saw an Aikidoka use elbows, knees have a devatating punch or use blocks. These are not incoporated with the Aikido that I know of. Not saying that Aikido ca'nt be street effective, Shioda Sensei, Chiba Sensei have spent all their years doing street worthy Aikido. Most practioners however don't view their Aikido as a self defense system, there is more to their philosophical and spiritual side, which is why I think they are viewed as soft. Also when you look at it compared to other arts, its not as diect and has the attakers well being in mind. However the system of Aikido you describe I have not seen, most schools stay away from atemi waza, but if they do its mainly punches. As a kyu, I did a front snap kick during Randori and almost flunked my test because of it. I have never seen elbow strikes in Aiki period.

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#126615 - 08/07/03 03:04 AM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yeah yeah yada yada why do you think Aikido was used so extensively in the war. Why do you think the US army and the Navy Seals include Aikido in their hand to hand training. Because it's been proven to be effective to them in real combat situations. Aikidokas do strike, they just practise them seperately from Randori because of the dangers involved.

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 08-07-2003).]

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#126616 - 08/07/03 01:32 PM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Once again.......you need to re read your history or check your sources, son. you are way off. SEALS have never used Aikido and by the nature of the art is not based on combat. You constantly make damaging statements. I suggest you either study the art, or contact a serious student of the art before making you ludicrous statements. To show you how ridiculous your statements are, The Japaneese didn't use Aikido during WWII but soldiers were taught Judo instead.If they didn't use Aikido why would we, beside Aikido was not officially an art till after the war. Aikido in Viet Nam, I think not! I suggest you study before you engage in these posts as you are doing more harm giving out bad information, than causing discussion. I studied Aikido and Jujutsu for over 20 years, so I know what I am talking about.

P.S. Most Navy SEALS use a combination of arts, but their striking art is Muay Tai, and of late, alot of Krav Magra has seeped in. Get your story straight!

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#126617 - 08/07/03 02:25 PM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Shotokan, you won't find a more staunch supporter of aikido than me, but I don't think even I would go as far as you have [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

It is very refreshing to hear such an unbaised appraisal of an art by a practitioner of it, and I commend you for you honesty, but I think perhaps you are underselling karate as a form of self defence. I also wonder if perhaps you have seen one of the many aiki jujutsu variants, or perhaps Hapkido, being passed off as aikido, as I have never seen aikidoka use elbow strikes, nor does they use blocks in the usual sense of the term.

I accept that I am no expert on aikido and if you have seen aikido being done as you say then I apologise. I would be very interested to know which ryuha it comes from though, because it does seem to have some serious clashes with traditional aikido, particularly as regards philosophy.

Budo

PS I read somewhere that US special forces were taugght Hapkido during the Vietnam conflict. I think shotokan is confusing the two.

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#126618 - 08/07/03 05:29 PM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
I must concur with Senseilou both in the points he presented and the tone of his reply back to you Shotokan. For someone who uses a Traditional Japanese Martial Art as their User Name which holds its essece in character development. You showed none of that in your opening remark in "Yeah Yeah Yadda Yadda".
As for your statement that the US Army and Navy Seals use Aikido in hand to hand training. I have a Brother-in-law who is a radio field operator in the 42nd Snipers Platoon in the US Marines (Cpl. R.W. Wahl). He was stationed in Iraq and was involved in Operation Iraqi Freedom. I have had several discussions about his hand to hand combat training during basic and as he has progressed through the ranks. At no point has he made the claim that he had been learning the art of Aikido.
Please keep in mind that the military uses an eclectic blend of martial arts techiques that are (a) easily learned in the shortest amount of time and (b)easily retained and (c)lethal and efficient.
To make the claim that the US Military would spend the time and the money to learn an entire art that takes years to be proficient at is misleading and ignorant.
A more accurate statement would have been...The US Military has incorporated some Aikido techniques as part of its hand to hand combat training.

[This message has been edited by Raul Perez (edited 08-07-2003).]

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#126619 - 08/07/03 07:21 PM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I was merely returning the same attitude that SensiLou showed me. Just because your brother never mentioned it doesn't mean they don't use it. I did my research. They training in Shotokan, BJJ, Aikido, Judo, TKD, JKD, Karate (Different from shotokan), Hapkido, Wing Chung, Kung Fu etc.

Maybe your brother isn't a Navy Seal special opps member.
Just an average soldier.


They have incorporated some of everything they have taken all of the nonsense out of all of the martial arts and adapted what works for them. These men are busy they don't have time to do katas and learn a hold bunch of techniques it's a waste of time to them. Never the less Aikido is combat effective.

See: For Military and Law Enforcement uses.
http://www.usnavysealstore.com/shop.asp?action=10&product=1590
http://www.desertwindaikido.com/Aikido/Instructor/instructor.html
http://www.aikidojournal.com/articles/_article.asp?ArticleID=1099
http://www.hiriki-aikido.net/halt.html



[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 08-07-2003).]

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#126620 - 08/07/03 09:06 PM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
OK. Your first couple of responses seemed to imply that the Navy Seals and US Army just focused on Aikido. Now that you have clarified your position I agree with your statement that the US military uses techniques from various martial arts systems, including Aikido.

Now in defense of my Brother-in-law --- like you didn't know it was comming [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]. No he is not a Navy Seal. As I had stated previously he is in the Snipers Platoon for the Marines. No average Marine is accepted into this platoon. And the training program for this platoon is extensive and brutal. He was apart of several special operation missions during Operation Iraqi Freedom.

As for the links... not bad but I was aware that many law enforcement agencies nationwide were encorporating a form of Aikido due to the system's more humane way of subduing an assailant without doing permanent injury (ie less lawsuits against the police force). But your link to back up the Navy Seals use of Aikido leaves me still a skeptic. Now before you take this to heart hear me out first. My reason being is that your link is referring to a commercialized video tape at which the developers of this tape are bent on making a profit from it. Because of this, in my opinion, it hinders its credibility as a source of information. Think about it... if you were making a tape and trying to make a profit from it wouldn't you say just about anything to market your product to create a demand for it? Therefore I am going to need a more credible resource to convice me about your Navy Seals claim.

I agree with you that Aikido is combat effective.

Quote: "Kicking was effective in the fights of the old days when the sword and the staff was used. It was a great tool to reach the opponent while keeping at bay."

Why would you kick someone who has a 3 foot razor? Doesn't seem practical.

Quote: "That leaves me with the devastating punches, the blocking, pivoting, trapping, elbows and knees. <<That's all we've got!"

Not entirely so my friend. Check this link out by an accomplished British Shotokan Karate-ka Ian Abernethy: http://www.zyworld.com/enembius/sfc/kataBunkai.htm

And this article found on this website by Joe Swift: http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=77

Quote: "I don't why people say Karate is hard and Aikido is soft."

Please give me your definition with regard to Hard and Soft martial arts.

Kind regards,

Raul

PS
You are probably not aware of this, but Marines prefer to be called Marines. Soldier is the term used for the Army. Out of respect of our Military personnel it is proper for us as civilians to address them in the proper way.

[This message has been edited by Raul Perez (edited 08-07-2003).]

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#126621 - 08/07/03 10:49 PM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm not talking about the Marines/the regular Army these are two different divisions. I'm talking about the elite Navy Seals. The link doesn't lead to much, but If you check inside karate magazines you'll find more. The fact that it was used by law enforcement makes it proven in the streets againsts criminals. That's all that's required. The argument isn't about if karate has throws or not. Throws isn't a focused part of Karate training, although it is a lost art of our style. Aikido is a not aggressive martial art, and it's good that it doesn't cause injury. That's a good thing, because you can get in a lot of legal trouble if you go too far or behave too savagely when fighting someone. The concept of Aikido is to not hurt him, while making sure at the same time he doesn't hurt you. Nevertheless, Aikido combined with strikes can be deadly. Even the throws can cause internal injuries. I read about a founder of Traditional Judo who trained with Funakushi, the founder claimed that he could throw someone and break their legs at the same time.

The issue is if Aikido is street effective, despite it's reputation as a soft art.

Basically hard martial arts relies more on muscles, stamina, strength, and to a lesser on Ki. Naturally these are art adapted well to sports oriented commercialization of the arts and gained more publicity.

Soft martial arts require less external energy and more relaxation to release Ki or Chi as the Chinese call it.

According to what I've read chi is the element of which everything is made up of. It's existense can be proven by Tai Chi, Chi Gong, Wing Chun, Chi-Na, Chinese wrestling arts, in general chinese martial arts and the tricks thought in grappling such as the unbendable arm etc.

Hard martial arts almost uses raw strength and speed.

Soft martial arts harmonizes the mind, the body, and the spirit to accomplish a task.

According to one Aikido site Ki is positive thinking.

We Shotokan practioners are encouraged to learn Aikido to complement our fighting skills because it is effective. We are related arts both derived to some extent from Traditional or original Ju Jitsu.

Aikido Deadly: http://www.nolaria.org/aikido/body/deadly.htm

My regards

P.S

I am sure you are proud of your brother but, Marines are nothing compared to the Navy Seals. The Navy Seals are trained mainly in assassination, they are trained to kill with their hands and ninja like weapons. That's the difference between an average Marine or Army personnel and a Elite Navy Seal (Special Operations Division).

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 08-07-2003).]

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#126622 - 08/08/03 01:30 AM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Here we go again..........Just because you do a wrist lock like Sankyo or Kotegaeshi, doesn't necessarily mean it is Aikido. If you study the art, you will know that the utmost principle within Aikido is the entering movement and how you achieve the lock. You can watch an Aikido person do a Sankyo, an Jujutsuist do the same lock or an Aiki-Jujutsuist do the same lock and they may all look different. To say the locks of the SEALs is Aikido, rules out that it could be Jujutsu. Aikido entrances deal more with the attackers energy and redirect it. In combat, there may not be the time to accomplish this. All the articles in the world can not take the place of doing techniques for real, and then when attacked for real. Its easy to say what works and doesn't in an article, or video, but in practice is entirely different.
I know a Master who was a SEAL. He was at least a 6th dan at the time when he was leaving the teams. He approached the SEALs about teaching them some of his art, not only would they not let him, but wanted him to go to school for 18 weeks to learn how to teach the teams. When I asked what they learned he said hand to hand combat, not style and nothing very complicated. Silent kills, broken necks, quick chokes etc, he said a SEAL doesn't have the time to play with joint locks etc. He has to be quick, silent and deadly. He said also that Krav Magra, the real stuff from Israel, not what we see here, is becoming more and more accepted in the teams. He said that is because the Israeli's have used it for years and have had more hand to hand combat than most armies. Having said that, he was shocked that most arm forces are employing their own spin to training special forces. The Airborne Rangers of England are doing Russian Sambo techniques in their studies. Truth is no one but the teams know what they are doing, but one thing can be sure, by adding punches to Aikido technique, or using the locks of Aikido means they are practicing Aikido at all. The same locks of Aikido are in Jujutsu, Kajukembo, ROSS system in Russia, San Jitsu, Lua, Lima Lama, and in some Kempo styles. So this does not mean they are Aikido locks in their training, I can't imagine having to kill someone with an Aikido mind set, how do you be harmonious when you are in battle. Your not, and its not Aikido in the trenches.

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#126623 - 08/08/03 04:18 AM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Why does it matter which MA certain military units make use of? Hand to hand traininmg is only a very minor part of military tactics, and as has been pointed out, techniques need to be easy to use, effective and adaptable to a lot of people of varying levels of proficiency.

I have had the opportunity to look at the training of the Russian military, and it was unlike anything I have ever seen before. What it wsn't was style specific, it wasn't even a martial art in the traditional sense, but it was very direct. Some of the techniques bordered on being suicidal!! I would assume that is true of every style of hand to hand fighting withinj the military.

For the record, I work and trained alongside ex-military personnel all the time, from different units, and it is my experience that they have no particular interest in MA, nor any exceptional skill at it.

Budo

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#126624 - 08/08/03 08:26 AM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Cato.. you are absolutely right. Senseilou lets just agree to disagree with Shotokan.

Thanks for the interesting post Shotokan.

My best,

Raul

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#126625 - 08/08/03 03:10 PM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raul Perez:
Cato.. you are absolutely right. Senseilou lets just agree to disagree with Shotokan.

Thanks for the interesting post Shotokan.

My best,

Raul
[/QUOTE]

I agree with Raul this can go on forever because you aren't willing to accept anything I tell you even though I posted some sites backing this up. I give up.
Hand to Hand is a small part of military operations of course and a small part of law enforcements but whatever. I'm not saying that the police and army single out Aikido as an effective art. They often cross train some even use Karate.

I give up this post is a waste of my time and energy if some people aren't gonna acknowledge it.

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#126626 - 08/09/03 01:57 AM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
who says karate is hard? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#126627 - 08/09/03 10:13 PM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Karate kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/07/03
Posts: 598
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shotokan:
I agree with Raul this can go on forever because you aren't willing to accept anything I tell you even though I posted some sites backing this up. I give up.
Hand to Hand is a small part of military operations of course and a small part of law enforcements but whatever. I'm not saying that the police and army single out Aikido as an effective art. They often cross train some even use Karate.

I give up this post is a waste of my time and energy if some people aren't gonna acknowledge it.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with you all the way shotokan, and also with everyone else, except for sensei loo who showed his IMMATURE side. I know 1st graders who know that navy seals are alot more ass kickin than marines. UNLESS, you are talking bout marine recon team s-forces. WHICH seal team 5 is better than any s-forces which i dont wanna argue about cause it dont go with the post. THANKS ALL

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#126628 - 08/13/03 08:02 PM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
I don't know if I should post my thoughts in this thread or not because I really dislike the direction it has gone, but here are some of my thoughts on softness and Aikido.


I was training last night with a member of my dojo, whom I've discussed in another thread about bullies. I don't believe him to be a bully anymore, I think he really enjoys working with me because I guess that my ukemi is really pretty good and he knows that I can take hard breakfalls which he loves to throw people into even though we're not "supposed to" anymore.

But at last night's practice, he was setting me up for what should have been a "no touch throw." I had been attacking with a same side wrist grab for a few attacks in a row and getting thrown zenpo nage, but about the third time he extended his arm in a sayu undo/atemi movement. I've been working fourteen our days lately, and was not on top of it. He did this to me about a week ago and it ended up with me taking a back breakfall and avoiding his arm. Last night... BAM!! He connected full force right into my nose. I was wearing my glasses which I normally don't do, but I was needing to read some stuff on our dry erase board, and my glasses got knocked up and sort of stuck in my hair, which was embarrassing (I'm probably one of the few aikidoka with dreadlocks). But man, he sure stunned me. His technique was definitely effective, I hit the ground and was in no condition to attack again [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]. But now my nose is swollen, luckily not broken, but it got me wondering how often karate dojo's make such contact. I bet probably as often as has happened in my aikido training.

The second thought that I have is regarding yonkyo, which I'm going to be tested on during my next test. I noticed in another thread that Sensei Lou dislikes the technique because he does not think that it is effective or very painful. I don't what the jujutsu equivalent is that you were talking about Sensei L., but I have a bruise on the inside of my left wrist from yonkyo, and it still hurts!! It's probably not so effective when I do it, but my sempai has had to use it in multiple "real life" situations, and its one of his favorites. I now know why. OUCH! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

So for practicing arguably the softest style of one of the softest martial arts, I'm pretty well beaten up right now. I shudder to think what would happen to me in a hard style [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] LOL. I'm actually not that big of a wimp but I like poking fun at myself.


And now for more abuse!!

Joe.

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#126629 - 08/13/03 10:28 PM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Anonymous
Unregistered


S.E.A.Ls train with ninja like weapons?
trained in assasination?
Train in aikido?
You are one confused child. I suggest you get your information from more reliable sources than children's cartoons.

Watch the history channel, discovery channel-they run shows on special forces all the time. Better yet, go read a book.

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#126630 - 08/14/03 02:23 AM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
what id yonkyo exactly, i method of locking the wrist i know, but what is it in english lol i dont know any of them, we call them front lock, back lock, reverse lock, hand throw, and vertical lock.

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#126631 - 08/14/03 09:26 AM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Joe,

I can attest that Yonkyo does not work on all people. It sometimes works on me and it will not work on my sensei. It may well cause bruising but the technique relies in hitting the nerves in the forearm, not rupturing the capillaries. I don't know if my nerves are dead from training or if they just ain't there.

I guess the main thing that I don't like about yonkyo is it doesn't incorporate any kind of structural lock.

Kempo,

If you ever get a really big strong guy to grab your wrist, and when you go to move his knuckles (usually the base of either the index or the thumb) dig into your forearm and hit the nerves... that's the flavor of yonkyo.

Chris

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#126632 - 08/14/03 10:34 AM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Let it go Nekogami13. If you read that post too much your eyes will bleed.

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#126633 - 08/17/03 04:40 PM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by nekogami13:
S.E.A.Ls train with ninja like weapons?
trained in assasination?
Train in aikido?
You are one confused child. I suggest you get your information from more reliable sources than children's cartoons.

Watch the history channel, discovery channel-they run shows on special forces all the time. Better yet, go read a book.
[/QUOTE]

I read books, you look at too much TV. Television is a recreation of reality it is not the ultimate truth.

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#126634 - 08/21/03 06:20 AM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
TV is not true [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif[/IMG] You mean there has never been a Starsky and Hutch?? My life is empty.

Interesting discussion on military hand to hand fighting but I wonder what relevance it has to, well, anything really. It is a bit like the "my sensei can whip your sensei" debate, and not so very far from "my dad is bigger than your dad" issue in every playground everywhere. We all train in the style we feel we personally can achieve most in. It doesn't matter that someone from another style is a better or worse fighter than me, I will only ever be as good as I can be. What matters is that I choose the style(s)I train in with care and that I train dilligently.

If I'm unfortunate enough to meet and fight with a US SEAL or a British SAS commando they will kick my arse. Not because their "style" is superior to mine but because they are tough lads and it wouldn't matter if they never trained in any MA in their life, they will still be tough lads. Get a bunch of tough lads together and teach them the worst MA you can think of and they will still kick ass. It doesn't mean their style is any good, just that they are.

Budo

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#126635 - 06/22/04 01:25 AM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
reaperblack Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 558
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
just to clarify, aikido is a soft style because it is an internal style meant to use ki, rather than brute force. There are no strikes in aikido, only tsukis, which is like a stab or punch, but there is never contact. Aikido is also a soft style because of the fact that it involves redirection rather than stopping force. As far as what art is taught to the military in the us, good luck at figuring that out there are several different types, and there are many moves constant throughout many styles. Eg. aikido, judo, jujitsu, aiki jujitsu, and shorin ryu karate all have similar throws and locks. Some would say because they are all descended from the bubushi or daito ryu aiki jujitsu, but i leave this debate to the historians. And besides not all styles of karate are hard, shorin ryu is considered a hard and soft style.

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#126636 - 06/22/04 06:39 AM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Rimrag Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/04
Posts: 28
Loc: Phila. Pa. USA
Hiriki Aikido = "Elbow Aikido"; An entire School of O-Sensei's Aikido.

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#126637 - 06/26/04 09:31 PM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shotokan:
I don't know why people say Aikido is soft.

Being a Shotokan man, I know kicking high in a real fight isn't wise. Kicking is used mostly for stopping the opponent. Best when combine with trapping and even when combined with locking. I wouldn't waste my time kicking below the waist the only point worth kicking when fighting someone bigger is the groin.

Kicking was effective in the fights of the old days when the sword and the staff was used. It was a great tool to reach the opponent while keeping at bay.

That leaves me with the devastating punches, the blocking, pivoting, trapping, elbows and knees. <<That's all we've got!

I don't why people say Karate is hard and Aikido is soft. When it comes to the street the Aikido practioner has the advantage because he has more (useful and realistic) tools at his disposal: Throws, locks, resistance training, takedowns, elbows, knees, blocking, devastating punches, pivoting, trapping.

No offense to other karate practioners but this is just my opinion.

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 08-06-2003).]
[/QUOTE]
Errrr, I dont know where you studied karate,but these are determinations made by YOU.And are not true,and not what is taught in Karate.You said you "would not waste your time kicking below the waste in a real fight, that the only point worth kicking is the groin".....I dis-agree.THE KNEES ARE MORE VALUABLE THAN THE GROIN.And more devastating.You mentioned high kicks have no value??!!??,well,Mark "the hammer" coleman,would certainly differ on that point!A HIGH KICK to his head....knocked'm out!I personally, got into a fight in my dojo many years ago,w/a higher ranked,more skilled Karate practicioner,AND IT WAS A HIGH KICK,---that knocked him out!(I feinted a front kick,then-- WHIPPED AROUND QUICKLY---my TRUEGOAL---a high inner-edge kick,to the left side of his FACE.)SO YOU SEE?, it depends on the person.P.S.No offense taken, just sharing my view on the subject.---terry

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#126638 - 07/16/04 10:54 PM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Anonymous
Unregistered


i think that ppl say that karate is hard because u have to be stronger than a aikido martist.

btw my fav style is jitsu because its well balanced. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#126639 - 07/26/04 02:00 AM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
reaperblack Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 558
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
Again that depends on the style. I used to do aikido, now i do shorin kan karate, many of the movements are very similar. Shorin ryu is a hard and soft style containing throws, holds and locks, strikes, and pressure points, and limb destructions. Some of this is hard some is soft.

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#126640 - 07/26/04 07:22 AM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by hansito:
i think that ppl say that karate is hard because u have to be stronger than a aikido martist.

btw my fav style is jitsu because its well balanced. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

Is Ki used in Karate? This is a genuine question i'm not being rhetorical,I don't know much about karate. Physical strength plays no part in real aikido as inner strength (ki) has proven to be more effective albeit very difficult to master.

One of my Sensei's is 4'9" female 5th Dan and we had a difficult new comer who had a background in karate and was trying to show off during class. He said aikido was useless and challenged sensei to neutralize one of his attacks. She eventually agreed and using her ki, she neutralized the attack. Also with the uke using all his physical strength in his attack only drove him down into the mat harder. You should have seen the look on his face, he wasn't happy. We didn't see him after that.

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#126641 - 07/26/04 01:55 PM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
its not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog

I have seen many smaller good technicians. Look at the Okinawan and Japanesee even Chinesse Masters, they are not big by American standards. It all goes back to how you train. Not the technique but the technician, not the art but the artist.If one style was superior we all would do it. We all want to be the best we can. More than that, all the arts and styles have something to offer, you just have to find what fits you best.By the way, I saw a Karate Black (Nidan)belt take out every instructor and every senior Aikidoka in a school. There were all 4-5th Dans and none, not one lasted even a minute. The were 2 big things to note. Number 1 the Karate-ka trained in Korea, and knew how to fight and being an MP did indeed use his art in Korean. At that time Koreans loved beating up on service men. He was in the dojo to learn Aiki and the senior instructors wanted to show how Karate was neutralized by Aikido. Their plan failed, which I think is another reason, Aikidoka are not use to being hit, its not a question of strength, but in Karate there is contact, sometimes alot. Many a night I struggled to the car after a good butt whipping. Aikido is very aerobic and good for conditioning but does not address another type of conditioning being hit. After a couple of strikes and kicks from my friend , the instructors wanted no more. So it all depends, again its not the art but how its practiced. On another note, I saw the same Karate-ka bounced around by Toyoda Shihan like he was a a toy. After class the Karateka told Toyoda Shihan he had never had a beating like that. Just goes to show

Now as for Ki in Karate. For some strange reason people believe that Ki doesn't exist in Karate. Maybe because there is no mention of it in the name, I don't know. All your internal Chineese styles study, and employ Chi as a main stay of the art, Okinawan and Japanesse styles too use Ki but maybe learn it a bit differently, none the less use it. Anytime someone is breaking bricks, stones or wood, they use their Ki. We use to have to practice the 'iron shirt' where Sensei would come around with a jo or a bo and strike your body while you practiced your breathing. There are kata(forms)especially created to create and improve your inner-strength. However, everyone has ki, just Martial Artists know how to cultivate and use it. Adrenaline is the same thing to a non-martial artist. I saw a man who had no training, weak and small pick up a cement patio table and move it accross a room to protect his family during a storm at the beach. I have seen before where people who don't practice other arts believe that Ki is intrinsict in their art alone. Its not the case.

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#126642 - 09/10/04 06:43 AM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
ken harding Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 721
Loc: UK
The Airborne Rangers of England are doing Russian Sambo techniques in their studies.

Senseilou - the who??????????

There are paras, SAS, SBS, Royal Marine and elite regiments but I never heard of "Rangers of England".

The Armed forces of the UK are "British". England is one (ok the largest) country within Britain or the UK.

For this reason we have Irish Guards. Scots Guards regiments etc.

Sorry to be pedantic but wanted to clear this up.

I am however in agreement with your main points though.
Shotokan - learn your art properly there's more to it then you think or have been taught by the sound of what you say.

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#126643 - 09/22/04 04:39 PM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Anonymous
Unregistered


IM NOT SURE BUT
Most of you seem to be missing the point.

While there is really no mercy in almost any martial art, there are some with just a bit more compassion. Aikido is one of these.

Yoga is an art that embraces both mercy and compassion, well probably thinks that they are they same, but they are not. in yoga there is no enemy and no opponent. only sweet sweet love.

Karate has no mercy at all, and definetly does not reflect the good health of the enemy or opponent with compassion through its techniques, but there is compassion in the philosphy mostly based on the heart and good will of the karate person. There are both enemies and opponents in karate.

IN AIKIDO THERE IS NO ENEMY, ONLY OPPONENTS.
THIS IS REFLECTED AS A PHILOSOPHY THROUGH ITS ACTUAL TECHNIQUES. THERE IS NO MERCY IN AIKIDO AT ALL. NO SLACK IS EVER REALLY GIVEN TO THE OPPONENT. AIKIDO ALMOST MORE THEN ANY OTHER ART IS DISTINGUISHED IN THIS WAY.

IF YOU BELEIVE COMPASSION IS WEAK THEN YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE LAWS OF NATURE.

MERCY IS ABSOLUTELY WEAK, THERE IS NO MERCY IN NATURE, ONLY COMPASSION.

WETHER AIKIDO REPRESENTS THIS BETTER THEN OTHER MARTIAL ARTS IS OBVIOUSLY BASED ON THE CHARACTER OF ITS TEACHERS AND STUDENTS.

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#126644 - 09/22/04 05:20 PM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
reaperblack Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 558
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
Quote "why do we practice Aikido this way and apply it differently? Because if we practiced the way we apply I would have no students, they would all be in hospital or dead." The technique that was used to demonstrate.... lets see if you can figure it out. First hyperextend the elbow with the left hand to the elbow and right to the wrist (counter right tsuki of course), then pass this under the right arm and strike to the throat with a ridgehand, collapsing the trachea, then place the left hand behind the head in a suitable position to leverage to snap the neck or choke, then bend the persons head to their feet, ideally breaking their back. Doesn't sound too compassionate to me.

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#126645 - 10/18/04 01:24 AM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I would say that Aikido is as "hard" or as "soft" in response as the attack itself is.

And I thought the question was interesting, but the disrespectful reply to a Sensei seems very immature in one who claims to know something of the arts.

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#126646 - 10/21/04 01:47 AM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Just because you are a Sensei of one paticular type of Aikido please don't speak for all aikidoka. I teach Yoshinkan Aikido, and atemi is a very important portion of that style. O-Senesi himself said an effictive technique is 95% atemi 5% lock or throw.

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#126647 - 10/21/04 11:09 PM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello senseilou:

Shotokan I believe is confusing Richard Heckler's book "In Search of the Warrior Spirit" and thinking they were Seals...

I could be mistaken however,

Jeff

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#126648 - 12/11/04 05:31 AM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Robaikido Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
All these stats make me laugh, 99.5% o fights go to ground, atemi is 95% aikido, which both change everytime someone has a point to make

The actual quote I have in front of me, in Gozo Shioda's book Total Aikido, which I think is awsome.

On the atemi page it says 'The Founder, Ueshiba Sensei, said, "In a real battle, atemi is seventy percent, technique is thirty percent"

The training that we do in the dojo is designed to teach us varous sorts of techniques, the correct way to move our body, effective ways to use our power, how to create a relationship with the other person.

In a real battle, we must use the power that we have developed in our bodies in the dojo and use it explosively in an instant, we must decide the outcome of the dight at that moment. In that situation atemi becomes very important.

So there it is 70% atemi 30% technique, let my knowledge pass on hehe [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by Robaikido (edited 12-11-2004).]

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#126649 - 12/11/04 01:06 PM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by kempo_jujitsu:
what id yonkyo exactly, i method of locking the wrist i know, but what is it in english lol i dont know any of them, we call them front lock, back lock, reverse lock, hand throw, and vertical lock.[/QUOTE]

Basically yonkyo is 'fourth' technique. However that name does not tell you exactly what the technique is.
Basically it is a nerve lock, the nerve in question is the radial nerve. That nerve is 'locked' or literally squashed against the bone. The reason it doesn't work on some ppl is simply because it is in different places on some ppl. However it does not matter whether or not you have the nerve lock on, as long as you have applied the correct wrist lock that goes along with the nerve lock, yonkyo will still work very effectively.

The correct name for the antiquated term of yonkyo is Tekubi asai. Which basically means nerve strangulation.

As for ki in karate, ki/chi/prana is in all things. It exists in all MA regardless of origin. Ki is not a mystical force, it simply is life/spiritual force or universal energy as in Reiki.

For the original question aiki soft, karate hard. It isn't hard as in musculature and it isn't soft as in namby pamby.
Someone has already mentioned what it is.
It is soft as in non confrontational or indirect as oppossed to direct and or confrontational.

Soft and hard do not have the same meanings in eastern minds as it does in western minds.

As a general point of note, most schools (ryu) in Japan consider any MA with the word 'Do' as denoting 'soft' and any ending in jutsu as denoting hard.

For example Aikido comes from aikijutsu. So the soft evolves from the hard. Natural progression.
Kendo (japanese fencing) evolved from Kenjutsu (sword art/magic/mystery)
Jutsu means a variety of words, they are art, magic and mystery.
Ninjutsu - ninja magic or ninja mystery or ninja art.
You will notice there is no ninjutsudo. No soft style.

Do simply means path or way, it is a corrupted (read stolen) version of Tao. Tao also means way or path.

ig

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#126650 - 12/30/04 03:22 PM Re: Karate hard, Aikido soft?
Anonymous
Unregistered


It's a broad sweeping statement to say that one martial art is "hard" and another "soft". It depends on who's applying it. I have seen "soft" expressions of what is traditionally a "hard" martial art and vice versa.

Yin and Yang (In/Yo, hard/soft, fire/water) are 2 sides of the same coin.

Bear in mind that perhaps what one experiences in a "hard" style is simply a "beginner level" of expression and understanding of the art.

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