Cato,

I'm not ganging up on you, I don't know you well enough yet!

When I used the "Honey I'm sorry..." that is only an example of one of the many "aiki" principles, namely absorbing an attack/not blocking/not meeting force with force....

In learning many principles from Aikido, I have no doubt that I have applied them verbally. Amoung them

Absorbing and redirecting

Maintaining my center

Grounding the other party (particularly in business negotiations when the other party is emotional, a dose of data or a direct quote can turn things in your direction)

Atemi (amazing what a shout can do to a group of noisy kids in the basement, just enough to get their attention so I could continue in a normal tone of voice)

I am certainly not naive enough to think that all situations can be defused or dealt with verbally.

There are dozens (a hundred?) of principles and the circumstances may be suited to applying a passive principle. "Fine call me an SOB", I'm not going to escalate that...

However, someone slapping my wife is going to see some escalation (or at least the witnesses will). If someone slaps my dog there will quickly be some rather direct discussion, which may or may not escalate.

My reaction will be determined by the scenario and will take into account the surroundings, time of day, who is with me, how many of "them" are there, and I hate to say it but my mood....

The whole reason I left TKD and started with Aikido was so that I would have options available to me. Options ranging from walking away all the way to injury or death.

We have, I think, reached the crux of the matter. Aikido practice and aikido philosophy are two different things. I suppose I am looking or a way to bring them together, but there doesn't seem to be one.

For my part, I'm not sure whether I prefer to aspire to the ideals of aikido, or those of budo. I find aikido ideals are unattainable, and will lead me away from those of budo. It is after all the budo element that drew me to the art in the first place, and it is still important to me that what I do has some practical value. I worry that if I go too far down the aikido route I will become too passive in my life, and loose my self esteem. I love aikido, but I think it's philosophy is flawed.

I really like the sail boat analogy, but I think the sail boat is dependant on constant force being applied to it, rather than one big shove at the begging. Even a sail boat can find itself in the doldrums. How would it cope with that, without an engine of its own?

Csinca - I don't mind if you gang up on me, it helps me imrove my verbal tenkans [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

The problem we face here is trying to discuss a complex, often abstract, concept over the internet. It is very difficult to make any point without leaving yourself open to a counter, and I accept that I am taking a lot of what you say out of context, or missing the point altogether.

So, with that in mind, what exactly do you mean by maintaining your centre (center, for all you yanks [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]) in the context of a verbal argument?

Budo

Cato,

My interpretation put forth as my explanation...

Maintaining Centre to me (verbal or physical) is more of an emotional state of relaxation and clear mind. The ability to see things as they are and react accordingly.

An Example - I'm a salesperson, I make my living talking to a wide variety of people every day and every once in a while someone calls me up and they are very angry. It could be that my company missed a shipment, my credit department is calling them, the product didn't perform as they thought it should....but they get me on the phone and start with the unkind words. I've been insulted, called names, yelled at and threatened over the phone and if I can maintain my center (remain calm, see things for what they are and react accordingly) I don't get caught up in the their verbal attack. I don't escalate the situation but I let the caller blow off steam and have their say. In many cases when the initial volley doesn't get the rise they expect, it isn't so hard to say something like "Well I'm sorry the box wasn't your favorite color (colour?) but does that really make me an @$$#*!& that is too stupid to live?" More often than not I have the customer apologizing to me.

(Bringing in another thread) My ego is strong enough that I don't allow someone's words to undermine my own self worth, nor do I require the satisfaction of hurling a verbal attack back (I save that for after I'm off the phone). Also of importance is that I need satisfied customers to keep coming back so I can make a living and eat ever day (a nasty habit I developed when I was young). They aren't so satisfied and they don't come back when I call them sawed off little %&!@*s!

It's tough to explain in writing in a forum but hopefully you can see some similarities to not responding to a punch with a punch, or a kick with a kick but holding your own posture, integrity and balance....

If it matters when reading my posts, I'm not striving for the "aikido philosphy" "peace lvoe and harmony" or a moral ideal. I'm training to have a collection of principles, movements and experiences that may save my life or the lives of those I love. That and I have a ton of fun!

Cato said:

"I worry that if I go too far down the aikido route I will become too passive in my life, and loose my self esteem. I love aikido, but I think it's philosophy is flawed."

That is a very astute observation, Cato. I have had problems with my own life that this comment really puts in perspective. I wasted a lot of time harmonizing and blending with a bad environment (bad job and a bad relationship), and I never took the time to figure out what I wanted and where I wanted to go. I have always been a very passive personality, and it is something I struggle with a lot. I spent so much time in zazen and practice chasing ego loss that I dropped my own identity. I am working to fix that.

I find aikido philosophy becomes a paradox if you dig too deeply. Budo, on the other hand, does not seem to suffer from this.

Budo demands action, not passivity. Aikido philosophy will tell us not to be passive, but when you look at some situations and remove the list of actions that are unacceptable, it seems that you can be left with passivity as your only choice. You've done a good job of coming up with examples where strict adherence to aikido philosopy can paralyze a person.

I think the Founder came to the belief that it is not possible for a person to commit an act of violence without harming himself spiritually, hence violence became unacceptable even in self defense. I don't think I can share that belief.

Aikido the art can work as budo. In some ways it is ideal, because you can practice your techniques at close to full force and, provided the ukemi is good, there will be no injuries. Those same techniques can be devastating outside the dojo. So you have the opportunity to execute a committed technique against a real live person without running out of training partners. I cannot practice many of my hard jujitsu techniques at anywhere close to full speed, because they are too destructive.

I have never considered myself a practitioner of budo (not totally true, as a naieve teenager I claimed to). I don't know why. I read a lot about it, and it makes sense in a number of ways, but I have never felt I could lay claim to it as my own. I think there is a service component there that I feel I am missing in my life.

Thanks again for the discussion, it has been very helpful.

I think O'sensei, being a very spiritual man, knew exactly what he was doing when he took a budo art and turned it into something else. I believe that aikido philosphy is supposed to be at odds with budo philosophy and that O'sensei wanted to make something constructive out of something destructive. that is why we have this dilemma of aikido opposing budo.

Physically, aikido is a form of budo, yet at its highest levels it makes budo unneessary. So, presumably, the physical aspects of aikido are only a vehicle toward the ultimate goal, and not an end in themselves. That, to me, would explain how aikido can become a "way of life" rather than a martial art.

I know I don't aspire to these higher levels, so, for me at least, aikido will always be budo. But it will be constructive budo, in the sense that I wont use violence for its own sake, and I wont use more violence than I need to. Perhaps that is the point of aikido philosphy, it puts a limit on the excesses of budo.

Sorry, I'm rambling...again. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Budo

Three paragraphs can hardly be considered rambling, particularly (IMHO) if you hit the nail on the head.

Aikdido as a budo which allows you to transcend budo. That ought to be enough mysticism to hold anyone, LOL.

But seriously, I think you summarized it perfectly.