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#126045 - 06/13/03 01:43 AM Boxing and Aiki
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I am wondering how many people study boxing type attacks in their Aiki training, Jabs, crosses, hooks and uppercuts. Most schools don't, mine never did. I talked with a Shihan once and he said he addresses it at 5th Dan. I feel thats a bit ridiculous as you are more likely to see a roundhouse punch or cross rather than a straight punch, and 5th dan is a bit late to be addressing it. Also I would like some feedback on those who have tried their Aiki on jabs and double jabs and combinations

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#126046 - 06/13/03 02:28 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
I'll say that boxers may be the hardest to apply aiki waza to. Why? Because the way good boxers practisce to break their rythym and so on, and every so often, like a double jab, the first is pulled short as a fake to set you up or gain distance.

But, I don't see the problem if you move into their guard, where such attacks would have to change, or back off or sidestep.

In our (karate) dojo, in self defense, defenses for hook punches, lapel grabs and headlocks are among the first to be learnt.

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#126047 - 06/13/03 05:56 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Jamoni Offline
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Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
One way we trained for fighters who don't "commit" (IE Boxers) in hapkido was to back off in quick little steps, drawing him in, forcing him to step further and reach farther with each punch. When he goes too far and throws a wild punch or takes too deep of a step, then aiki stuff comes in to play. It's just like russia in world war 2.

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#126048 - 06/14/03 12:15 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
mikelw Offline
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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1031
Loc: Bothell, Washington (not DC), ...
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jamoni:
One way we trained for fighters who don't "commit" (IE Boxers) in hapkido was to back off in quick little steps, drawing him in, forcing him to step further and reach farther with each punch. When he goes too far and throws a wild punch or takes too deep of a step, then aiki stuff comes in to play. It's just like russia in world war 2.[/QUOTE]

thats a good analogy!

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#126049 - 06/16/03 04:44 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
immrtldragon Offline
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Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
I will be beginning aikido soon and after I have a good amount of experience and the basic concepts (at least 1 year), I am going to experiment with this. My dad used to box and I have some friends who do Ving Tsun. I am going to wear a really thick TKD style chest protecter and let them attack as quickly or broken up as they wish (only limiting factor will be no kicks low and no hitting in the face) just to see how well I can evade and at least get a grip suitable to where I could throw or pin using the Aikido concepts I have developed up to that time. I know it takes way more than a year to be proficient, but it's just an experiment.

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#126050 - 06/17/03 03:46 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Jamoni is absolutely on the money. Aikido strategy depends upon the attacker over committing. Until he/she does the aikidoka is better off keeping just out of reach.

Most MA styles would have trouble dealing with a skilled boxer, particularly if you choose to slug it out toe to toe. Aikido teaches us to aviod doing this, so to cross train in dealing with a boxer on his terms isn't really aiki at all. It is the adaption of aiki technique whilst ignoring the principles.

Budo

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#126051 - 06/17/03 01:09 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
immrtldragon Offline
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Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Ah ha...I'm learning before I even start my formal Aikido training.

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#126052 - 06/18/03 01:49 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
senseilou Offline
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Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Gee Cato, I disagree again. In my Aiki training, Aiki people don't attack, they give you an attack.I have never seen a true committed attack from an Aikidoka. Practicing in the dojo is one thing, but just as Aiki has Randori, Karateka spar, and its not exactly like practice. Sparring is where you prove your techniques, so the attacks you get when you spar are different then when you train. My first lesson came when my Sensei punched and I went tenkan to take kotegaeshi, all I got for my effort was an elbow to the head. I didn't expect to see that reaction. You don't need to believe in cross training, but one better beware of how punches are thrown. I am currently working with a good friend of mine in another art or two. Now since we are at the same level, we are not practicing basics but try our techniques on one another, no ego, just friendship and trading information. What we are doing is testing each others techniques which is great. One of his attacks is a flurry of strikes from many angles, and you can not manipulate his strikes, period. Stepping back, fading, ducking tenkan, you can not just take one of his limbs. However, you get him with a good kick, or counter punch, the joint locks work great. One needs to face these types of attacks as well, as on the street you never know what you will see. For example I saw a guy on drugs go after a security cop, and he had a club in his hand. He never used the club but hit the security guy with a punch instead. Now I can't figure out if this guy was brilliant, showing the stick and not using it, or stupid for not using it. Eiher way the cop thought he was going to hit with the stick and never saw the punch. Lucky for him I took the stick away and hit the guy in the knee with it, so they could arrest him. Point is you don't know how people will attack, but they don't attack the way Aikidoka do.

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#126053 - 06/18/03 04:54 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Aah, Lou - Where to begin? It seems we will forever be crossing swords over aiki training. I do respect your opinion, but I have to put a counter argument forward all the same. No offence intended [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

First thing is that everyone needs to decide what their goals are in training. If all you want is a system of self defence then cross training may hold some merit, but if you want to learn a martial art, with all the attendant philosophy, discipline, ettiquette, customs and historical baggage that goes with it then cross training is of little use.

So, having decided that all you want is self defence, I would argue that your argument about ineffective training could, and should, be applied to every art extant. More so than any other martial artists, karateka seem convinced of the superiority of their training methods. Yet they often overlook the fact that against an equally skilled aikidoka they leave themselves wide open for a counter if their technique fails to end the fight. Total committment to an attack is fine so long as you subscribe to the "all or nothing" philosophy.

Now, as to how committed you train, surely that is up to you? If you want committed attacks in aikido randori there is absolutely nothing in the art that stops you using them. Aikido attacks are only ineffective if you make them so.

I would also argue that cross training is both unnecessary and ill concieved. Unnecessary because aikido teaches us to deal with the motion of an attack, not the way it is delivered. a yokomen travels along the same path as a roundhouse punch or a mawashi geri. A jab is a tsuki. The principle of the attack is exactly the same. My point is that aikido doesn't teach defence A to attack B, it teaches principles of defence that don't change just because your attacker uses a right hook rather than a yokemen kiri komi. As I said before, training with a boxer on his terms simply isn't aiki.

My final point is this: It is clearly impossible to train with any degree of success against all the ways in which you might be attacked, so which ones do you leave out? Do you train with a boxer and leave out Muay Thai? Or learn BJJ and ignore kempo jujutsu? The list is endless and it is simply not possible to train with stylist from every art, so cross training is, in my opinion, ill concieved. It puts me in mind of the old saying "Jack of all trades, master of none".

Just my opinion, that's all.

Budo

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#126054 - 06/18/03 01:09 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
senseilou Offline
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Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Cato, you are missing my point. I am not suggesting cross training, nor am I slighting the effectiveness of Aiki. What I am criticizing is the attack that the Aiki person does. Remember its not the art, but the artist. I have never criticized the Art, but how the art is being done and applied. I have never said I just want self defense, contrarily I am one of the few people around who teach concept, theory and principles. There is much more to the art then self-defense, I never said that. What I am saying is that your technique NEEDS to work, and if someone is always 'giving' you the attack you will never be able to handle real attacks. If you haven't seen Aiki people with sluggish attacks then
1. you must have a great school
2. you must not see the attacks are not real
3. you just don't care one way or the other. I have trained long enough and have reached a point I don't need the help from the attacker. I NEED a committed attack, so I can prepare myself for the real thing. In my class I don't ask for certain attacks. My uke decides what he is going to do, I am teaching a technique, but never know where its going to come from or what angle. When we practice technique, we do it in a line, in a square in a hexagon, and many times any attack goes. If you really believe that tsuki is a jab, you haven't been with a boxer. It may look the same to you, but it certainly does not have the same timing as a jab. Which goes to another point, timing, in most cases, timing is not taught with all punching and grabbing done with the same rhythm. Speed up an attack or slow it down and it changes how a technique is done. The art is fine, its the way people practice their art that's the problem.

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#126055 - 06/18/03 05:05 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
I can't resist jumping into this one [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

First let me say that I am studying Aikido for self defense (not the history, customs, etc...) and I am cross training.

After ten years in Aikido, my dojo started some punching/kicking classes and some sparring (with pads)about three months ago. Every student that participated is developing skills to offer a realistic attack and has expressed their surprise at the speed and variety they faced when sparring.

I've been to a fair number of dojos and seminars and nowhere else have I seen an aikido class that practices against "any attack or combination" delivered when the attacker wants and not "ready-set-go".

I assure you that if you have not practiced against kicks you will get kicked. The line of a front kick may be the same as the line tsuki and the defense/response may even be similar, but if you aren't used to that foot being a threat and not just a base, it's gonna hurt.

The same goes for multiple attacks and combinations. It's nice to think that you can back away and suck someone into your range, but an experienced fighter particularly a boxer knows what his range is and will not over-extend. After all, isn't that what makes them experienced?

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#126056 - 06/19/03 10:22 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I do agree with a lot of what you say Lou, and of course I have seen ineffectual, sluggish, uncommitted attacks in aikido, just as I have seen them in every other art I have ever witnessed. This is not a purely aikido related phenonema. Conversely, surely you must have seen at least one committed attack from an aikidoka?

I agree entirely with your comment that it is the artist not the art that requires criticism. Unfortunately this distinction was somewhat lost in your original post. It is, I think, a little unfair to denigrate a whole art and its practitioners solely because some of them don't train as committed as others.

My point about a tsuki being a jab is merely that they are both linear strikes that travel along a very similar path. (And they are). By maintaining proper ma'ai the aikidoka makes the use of both strikes redundant.

It isn't so much a question of learning how to deal with the timing of a jab as it is learning how to apply the principles of proper distance. No-one can catch or block a well thrown jab from a skilled boxer every time, but keep out of reach and you don't need to. I'm not trying to suggest for one moment that that is an easy skill to learn, but it should be one of the goals of all aiki students.

BTW, the "you" I referred to in my last post wasn't meant to be you in particular. It was more a general "you" meaning anybody. I know you (Lou) teach the complete art, which is a lot more than just self defence, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. (I've got a headache now.)

csinca, welcome to the discussion, mate. You could've jumped in on my side though, I need the help. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/mad.gif[/IMG]

If I might be so bold, I would suggest that training as you describe is fine for self defence, but it isn't aikido. After 10 years training in the art I am sure you will agree that aiki strategy already teaches how to deal with kicks, so why start to practice them after so long training?

I'm also more than a little interested in your assurance that having not practiced against kickers, I will get kicked. What do you base that on?

I'm also a little surprised that in 10 years you have never seen another aiki dojo that practices in a committed way. Are you suggesting that all aiki students other than your dojo don't train properly?

Final point. If an experienced fighter refuses to get drawn in, and an experienced aikidoka maintains proper ma'ai the result will be that the defender (aikidoka) wont get hit. Seems like a real good strategy to me. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Budo

[This message has been edited by Cato (edited 06-19-2003).]

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#126057 - 06/20/03 01:31 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Big Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 16
Loc: Spapporo
Hello,

I have only been learning aikido for a few years now and I see this is one of the limitations of aikido.

Against an attacker with no MA experience akido is very effective. Against an experienced MA, then aikido has some limitations.

I have seen some great masters take on multiple attackers, which looks nice. But most of the attackers telegraph their attack or use 'round house' techniques.

In the real world, its not so simple.

I like aikido and I'm not trying to put it down, but it does have limitations as all MA do.

jamata

BIG

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#126058 - 06/20/03 02:31 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
The gauntlet has been thrown, I slap Cato with my white glove and challenge him to a duel!! Back to back, 5 paces(proper mai-ai?) and first koshinage wins. Anyway back to Cato in a minute. For "Big", its very intersting your observation. One of O'Sensei's deshi(he will remain name less unless you want to know) said his Aikido is only 90% effective, and thats against a non-trained person. In an encounter with a trained fighter he said he was about 60-70% effective. I didn't understand this and right after this moved on to Aiki-Jujutsu to beef up my odds. I find it funny that the very Master that trained under O'Sensei himself felt he was limited too.
As for Cato, my friend, we are not an Aiki dojo any longer, and practice Jujutsu and Karate mainly. To be exact our main arts are San Jitsu Ryu and Lua, but we have elements of many things as well. We do Aiki techniques, but not the way Aiki students do them. So my dojo really doesn't count. Yes I have seen a committed attack here and there, but to be honest, when the attack was more severe, sped up and attacked with more power, the techniques done by the nage were limited. That is not to say the art doesn't work, its to say when you walk through technique all the time, when you go harder and faster, you lose something. On the contrary I believe whole-heartidly if Aiki IS appied with self defense in mind it WILL work. Yes I have seen uncommitted attacks in other arts as well. I have seen Kempo schools punch in slower than slow motion, and they practice hard fast hands. It is not relegated to just Aiki, and I am not knocking the art,but the general practice of Aikido doesn't address certain things the way its needed to be, AND practioners believe than can deal with those aspects, which they are fooling themselves.
As an Aikidoka I can understand how you don't see kicking the way a Karate-ka would. Having achieved Dan ranking in both Aikido, and Karate, and having both mind sets as well, I am saying that recieving a kick from a karate-ka is not the same as an Aikidoka who just puts his foot out there. I can not tell you how many hours I have walked accross the dojo floor kicking from different angles, different heights and different stances. Sometimes the lead foot kick is just for your attention and can be followed by another kick off the same foot or a blasting kick off the back. I had an Aikido Sensei tell me that I couldn't hit him and kick him at the same time. He also told me to go for it and try to land my kick and punch, actually dared me to. I kicked him in the groin off my front foot and backfisted his nose. Not only did I break his nose, but kicked him in the groin. He said " the kick wasn't done right, as you can't kick off the front foot. You have to kick off your back foot all the time." This was an Aikido Sensei and I was a brown belt. Kickers know how to kick, and your comment about practicing for 10 years why should you practice kicks if the art pepares you for them, I think, shows the limitation of the art itself. Under that logic, if kotegaeshi is done for 10 years, why practice it any longer? In order to deal with kicks one must practice against them. Here, there is this raging argument that Karate-Ka would never let anyone catch their kick, Jujutsu-ist swear they can do it. I don't understand the argument, they are both right, a good kicker should not have his kicks caught, and a good grappler should be able to catch the kick and take the person to the ground. But its all about the practice. If you practice against real kicks, you can defend against them, but if you don't and you may get out of the way of a kick(say tenkan)he may find another harder kick from a different angle coming at you.
Lets be honest though all this is just rhetoric, Aikido was not designed to handle Karate-ka, and vice versa, so there must be adaptation of your art to deal with it. Remember, it the hey day of the arts, Aikidoka, and Karateka didn't meet alot and train together, or see much of each others art. Its only today with cross-training that arts are being compared. Its wrong, and I am not comparing the arts but discussing the weakness of the people who train in them.
One final point...........when discussing a fighter, and being sucked in or not, the question is what kind of fighter. Thats why I feel its important to try and understand how people fight. The art of Silant(Pentak/Penjack) is based on the 'collision of energies'(dabrook)They practice the exact opposite than Aiki. They like to move in and collide with their attacker. Now it would seem they would be a very easy to defend against as an Aikidoka. I will tell you from experience, trying Aiki technique on them is tough. They are always inside on you and banging you with their bodies. Now if you couldn't read this movement, it would totally overwhelm an opponent. In theory things always work good, in practice its not always the case. So when you view a fighter, boxer, street fighter various Martial Arts practioners, your art must be able to adjust to their attack, and unless you practice this way, its going to be hard to make your technique work.

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#126059 - 06/20/03 03:32 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Big Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 16
Loc: Spapporo
Hi senseilou

Thanks, this is pretty much what I thought.

I will do some real ju-kumite with my aikido sensei and tell you the results :-p

FWIW I sometimes throw in a few aikido techniques in karate and the results are really interesting... but the rules do not allow for full application.

jamata

BIG

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#126060 - 06/20/03 11:02 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
So it's a challenge you throw down, eh? Then I accept. "Have a care, sir, and be on your guard"

I'm actually really struggling to keep from launching into a tirade here against all the people who continually slag off aikido. The bottom line is that it is NO WORSE than any other martial art. If you don't like it, don't do it. Just leave it alone, in every sense.

If you happen to think karate training is more effective then good for you, go to your karate class safe in the knowledge that you are better than I, and that you can kick my arse anytime you choose. A small word of caution first though...

I was once asked by a karate sensei (wado ryu) to demonstrate aikido/aiki jutsu to his senior students. (He returned the favour to my class - an interesting exercise but no students switched camps). At their request we did some sparring and, although I never sparred with the sensei, none of his students could land a telling blow, or kick, on me. Not one. Sure they caught me sometimes, but not heavily, and on a number of occasions I threw them (gently of course, they're only karateka - can't break fall to save their lives).

Now, either I am exceptionally talented (sadly not true), extremely lucky (I wouldn't say that either) or there is something in the idea that aikido training teaches students how to deal with different types of attack, yes - even kicks from accomplished kickers. I had never trained seriously against a karateka in my life, yet I managed to at worst hold my own against a succession of them.

Lou, it is your turn to miss my point about
training against kicks. After training for 10 years,aikidoka should already have the strategy to deal with a kick, which would negate the need to start working on defences to them in the dojo. 10 years aiki training ought to have taught the practitioner that fighting is about principles of attack, not the attack itself.

On the other hand kote gaeshi is a defence, and an authentic part of the aiki syllabus. All aiki technique needs to be worked on if only to maintain the level you are at. It is however less important to work on technique than it is to work on other things - ma'ai, zanshin, tai sabaki, sen no sen, and so forth.

I disagree that aikido wasn't designed to handle karate. Aikido was designed for self defence, whatever the attack. Whether it works or not is down to the practitioner, but then that's true of anything isn't it?

Budo.


[This message has been edited by Cato (edited 06-20-2003).]

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#126061 - 06/23/03 03:43 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
I study aikijujitsu, and we train for boxing attacks. How we train for them has had to change as we have gotten some real boxers who train with us. A boxer does not punch like a karateka, and a jab is not a tsuki, IMHO.

Most aiki people I see practice punch defenses rely on a total forward commitment from uke, who punches like he is going to end your life with that single blow. The weight shifts forward, the punch comes out, and tori blends with the punch's forward momentum.

That's wonderful, and it feels good to practice, but almost no boxer is going to give you a totally committed attack from the first engagement. A boxer doesn't think about killing you with one punch, he thinks about knocking you out with two or three, and he is careful to keep his balance while he is doing it. The only luck we have had "blending" with a fast, hard jab is to get the hell out of the way and follow it back in. This is an art in itself, because boxers dream about people walking into counter punches. Most times we address the counter punch as we close by striking or shoving uke's shoulder to disrupt his connection with the ground and therefore his punching power. Being able to execute a quick, strong tai sabaki to a safe place is of prime importance.

Once you close the distance enough to take away punches and hopefully destroy uke's balance in the process, you have some options-- at 9 or 8 kyu this tends to be osoto gari, ikajo, or waka gatame. People seem to have better luck with a good, hard sweep (augmented with a strike to the chin or through the neck/shoulder) than anything else.

I think it is a mistake to equate what your karate and tae kwon do experienced partner has in his or her striking arsenal with what a boxer can produce. I urge you all to spend some time working with boxers if self-defense is on your list of training goals, and if you don't consider the occasional cut or broken nose too much of an investment, then consider spending some time at the boxing gym in the ring. If nothing else the physical conditioning you get will change the way you look at the world. If you hang around long enough, you will learn to take punches you never would have thought possible.

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#126062 - 06/24/03 08:17 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Oh dear. One throw away comment about punching and suddenly it becomes an issue. Could someone please tell me the DIRECTION of a jab, and also that of a tsuki? Are they not both forward from the attacker in a, more or less, straight line? In order to be effective do they not have to first land on the defender? My whole point is that by keeping proper distance the jab/tsuki will fall short unless the attacker over commits to make it land.

If the attacker never over commits, the punch never connects and the aikidoka never gets hit. I hope that makes it clear to everybody what I meant about a jab and a tsuki being the same PRINCIPLE.

I think it is a great mistake to cross train with a stylist from another system on their terms and still call what you "aiki". It isn't. In aiki you don't train to take a punch because, in aiki, your goal is to never have to. It is undoubtedly a difficult goal to achieve, but that doesn't mean you should abandon it altogether in favour of a more attainable one.

I would also make the point that you can not force an aiki technique. If you attacker doesn't give you means with which to apply the technique, you can't do it. It all depends on your personal skill level as to whether or not you can utilise the attack given, or whether you have to use a different strategy. The point about following the jab back in is absolutely right, but you need the skill level to do it.

Budo

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#126063 - 06/24/03 11:23 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
Cato, thanks for the interesting comment.

Allow me to elaborate on my "a boxing jab is not a tsuki" claim, and we may end up having more in common in our points of view than it appeared at first.

First of all, I would allow that all jabs are not the same, and that proper maai (sp?) encourages a puncher to over commit after encountering a frustrating inability to connect. And I think you are absolutely right-- in this case the jab *is* a tsuki, and the momentum is all forward.

I just think you will be hard pressed to find a boxer who will jab that way. Most boxers fight very close to their opponent-- you will only be able to maintain proper maai if you have fluid, excellent footwork. At their preferred range, a jab is not a "thrust", so much as a quick, snapping motion. The jab I am thinking of has more in commmon with a snapping backfist than a thrusting motion.

The hand is relaxed, the fist is flung out, and then everything from the elbow back is retracted violently. The fist snaps out like a whip being cracked.

Given that, I think a more "aiki" approach is to blend with the motion of the retreating jab, and that if you connect with the jab at its furthest extent and try to move uke forward to break his balance, you will actually be countering force with force-- uke is pulling his jab back in, and tori is trying to extend it out.

So in the end, I think we are applying the same principle to two different jabs-- and since the direction of the attack is different, the approach to connecting and blending with it has to be different as well.

I appreciate the need for the highly stylized attacks in aikido, because aiki is an elusive concept, and a total understanding of the nature of the attack increases our chances of experiencing it and understanding it within this lifetime. An uke who continually throws curve balls is not an ideal training partner.

At some point, though, it is beneficial to study attacks that are much less "well formed". I would agree with your statement about cross training-- when I suggested it, it was mostly a tip of the hat to the combat oriented folks. If you have really committed your life to gaining a deep understanding of aiki principles (a very different goal from the "make me combat ready in three years" attitude that many who train have), then a boxing ring is certainly not the best place to pursue it.

I would, however, stand by the claim that spending some time experiencing attacks from anyone who has trained in another system and is willing to give you some of their time can be of great benefit.

I hope this makes some sense-- I can't tell you how often as a lurker I have watched two people who in essence agree with each other flail away at two different perspectives on the same "truth".

Be well.

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#126064 - 06/25/03 05:21 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Cato Offline
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I can definately see the benefit to training with a stylist from another system, so long as you do so from an aiki perspective. If I cross train with a boxer I should do so in order to gain a better uunderstanding of my art, and not to try to gain a limited understanding of his.

The principles of aiki remain the same irrespective of the type of attack you face. If you are training to learn how a boxer slips a punch, or how a karateka kicks from the front foot, you aren't doing aiki. If you are training to experience what it is like to apply aiki techniques/strategies to those types of attacks, then you are doing aiki.

In my opinion, I don't need to understand how a boxer punches, I need to understand how my aiki training allows me to deal with his punch. I don't need to know how to kick, only how to avoid one. I don't need to cross train, I need to train in aiki with different opponents. That is, I think, a subtle but extremely important distinction.

I'm not knocking any MMA systems in particular. They are not for me, but each to their owm. I do think though that such systems such systems are both limited and limiting. There is only so much self defence anyone can realistically learn to apply competently. I just happen to want a little more from my art, and I wont get it from cross training.

Do mu kyoku?

Budo

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#126065 - 06/25/03 01:30 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
the504mikey Offline
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Cato said:

"In my opinion, I don't need to understand how a boxer punches, I need to understand how my aiki training allows me to deal with his punch. I don't need to know how to kick, only how to avoid one. I don't need to cross train, I need to train in aiki with different opponents. That is, I think, a subtle but extremely important distinction."

I agree with the spirit of what you are saying. I think there something to learn about aiki in all things-- even a front leg front kick.

I understand and appreciate your point that it is not important for you to learn these things, but rather an appropriate aiki response to these things.

What, though, about your responsibility as uke? Good ukemi includes not just learning to receive aiki techniques, but also learning to furnish a useful attack for tori.

I contend it would be easier (and probably more appropriate) for you to learn a front legged snap kick and add that to your ukemi then it would be for a karateka to learn enough ukemi to practice safely.

I know I am not being fair-- it's a vast field, and uke already has a full plate learning the more traditional aspects of the role. Still, an uke who does have experience in other martial arts is probably a better uke than one who does not.

I am sure you have moments as an uke when tori receives some benefit from your jujitsu training, perhaps when he turns for shihonage and walks into a choke. The more you have been exposed to, the better you can do at teaching tori to stay safe.

Also, I do wonder if having an appropriate aiki response to a given attack doesn't automatically imply a complete understanding of how that attack is performed-- maybe I am being naieve with that idea.

I would appreciate your thoughts on that. Do we know how to do an attack just because we can blend with it?

Can we blend with it without knowing how to do it?

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#126066 - 06/26/03 04:54 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Cato Offline
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That's an interesting, and difficult, question mikey. What does make a good uke?

I would argue that a good uke is one who understands the point of the training and keeps the attack appropriate for the experience and skill of tori. It is, I think, more important that ukle makes a committed attack rather than a stylised one. Aikido attacks are designed for a specific training purpose. They teach us the principles of defence against linear attacks, circular attacks and multiple attackers.

It is, in my opinion, the principles that are important, not the attacks in themselves. A linear attack must travel along a broadly similar path to any other linear attack. The principle behind the defence remains the same whether uke chooses an aikido style attack, a karate style tsuki or a boxers jab. So long as uke commits himself to the attack properly, the rest is just window dressing.

I suppose it comes down to a simple question in the end: do you worry about how your attacker attacks, or about how you defend? I don't think it is possible to switch between styles of defence dependant upon the preferences of your attacker. The level of technical ability needed to do so would be phenomenal. In any case, unless your attacker obligingly informs you of his chosen style beforehand, you wont know how he attacks until he does, so you would have no idea which "style" of aiki defence to employ against him.

In short, No. I don't think it necessary for uke to be able to attack in the style of other martial artists.

Nor do I think an appropriate response implies an understanding of the attack. To me it implies an understanding of the principles of defence. If I may apply a rather trivial analogy, If I play cricket (I am English you know) and hit the ball over the boundary for six, does that mean I am a skilled bowler, or an accomplished batsman? So long as I read the line of the ball I don't need to understand the technicalities of how the bowler held his hand to bowl it, or the length and speed of his run up.

Can we blend with it without knowing how to do it - absolutely we can. I have no idea how to do a jumping spinning back kick, but I know it goes up in the air and in a circle. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Budo

[This message has been edited by Cato (edited 06-26-2003).]

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#126067 - 06/26/03 10:24 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
the504mikey Offline
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These are all excellent points, Cato.

It really is simple, there are only so many directions and forms an attack can take.

I get too caught up in having techniques "feel right" and then I get worried that if I face an attack that I have never faced before, the difference in the way it feels might break my technique.

The "can't see the forest for the trees" cliche is so overused, but if it ever fit anywhere I think it fits here. By chasing all these details, I have lost sight of the elements all attacks have in common. Maybe that was part of the genius of the way aikido was developed?

One of the things I have always liked about my sensei is that he makes a great deal of effort to get us to focus on concepts rather than individual techniques. I think that has helped me to make a lot of progress relative to what I have been able to learn from other teachers.

So, in aikido, maybe the attacks you practice against aren't relevant, as long as they enable you to grasp the concept behind the attack.

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#126068 - 06/26/03 03:42 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Joe Jutsu Offline
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Bingo!

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#126069 - 08/07/03 03:17 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Anonymous
Unregistered


Boxing punches aren't that hard to defend against. You will get punched, just roll or more in the opposite direction of the punch with the same speed of the punch. Practise drills with evading punching. The secret is to get close behind the extended hand behind the fists where you can't get hit and then do something.

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#126070 - 08/07/03 01:57 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Cato Offline
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It is all about opinion in the end isn't it? I think any skilled puncher, boxing or karate or whatever, is difficult to defend against [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Budo

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#126071 - 08/09/03 01:30 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
kempo_jujitsu Offline
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i think what cato was trying to say is basically, a straight punch, and a finger jab...are basically the same damn thing....and can be dealth with in very simelar manors if not identical.
the 'path' of the strike is whats important, not whether its a fist or a knife hand etc.

a question about aikido, since it primarily relies on overcommitment on the attackers part....how would you deal with it if there was no overcommitment? just stay away from him until he did? just let him keep coming at you? or would you take the innitiative and attack first to lead into a lock or throw?

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#126072 - 08/21/03 06:06 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Cato Offline
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I think you've hit on a fundamental problem for aikido, kempo. Aikido was once described to me as the purest form of self defence in that it has no attacks in the usual sense. That means it can appear difficult to see how to set up a lock or such like.

The first thing to realise is that aikido projections rely on overcommittment, aikido locks do not. Leaving aside any ethical discussion, I can apply a technique like nikkyo to a perfectly pinned uke and subdue him. If an attacker grabs my lapel but doesn't over reach himself in doing so my defence options are more limited, but not exhausted.

The point about leading an attacker to overcommit is more relevant to the attacker who wants to punch. Aikido doesn't teach me how to block, so I am vulnerable to a quick puncher. My best cause of action is to keep out of reach and wait until he tries to make up the distance by extending his punch a little too far.

If I am not able to keep proper distance I have to takke a more desicive role. I ca, for example, follow his punch in as he draws it back and initiate a technique from there, over extending him to his third point. However the skill level required to do this is greater than that needed if I were to let him over reach himself, so it probably wouldn't be many aikidokas first choice of strategy.

The real important point about aikido though is that it is not lead by the defender, but depends upon the opportunity afforded by the attacker. If I see an opening for a particular technique I take it, if not I wait, if I can. If I can't wait I utilise an irimi technique as soon as I can, with a good atemi. It is easy to get hung up on the idea that aikido is reliant upon this or that, it isn't because like every MA it is dynamic and changes as the situation demands.

Budo

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#126073 - 08/21/03 04:01 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
kempo_jujitsu Offline
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cool...well said and thanks.

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#126074 - 08/24/03 06:42 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
John C Offline
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I have been training for nineteen years on and of in Wado-ryu Ju-Jitsu, Wing-Chung and hold 1st Dan in Aikido, as for defending against a boxer I expect there were not many boxers in feudal Japan so the techniques are not necessarily designed to deal with a not committed attacker plus aiki empty hand techniques are more designed for weapons rather that empty hand, you would not stand on the spot jabbing with a knife you would commit your attack. In all Martial arts the practitioner should learn the principle of when to use atemi and in my experience both aikido and Ju-jitsu practitioners have good principles probably better than Karate but they are week and badly trained in hand strikes, and in my view students should learn to punch and kick before taking up either of these Martial Arts up, to develop a good defence you must first learn good offence it is easy to throw someone from a bad and over committed attack. With a boxer donít get into his distance draw him in they are very easy to take down with front foot sweeps they may not commit with the hands but they do with the front leg very open to groin kicks they donít know what to do with feet always keep kicks low on the streets. If you wish to contact me with your view. chisholm60@hotmail.com

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#126075 - 08/24/03 09:14 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
kempo_jujitsu Offline
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why do you say that aikido and jujutsu's principles are better than karate's?
that is simply not true....infact they have many of the same principles in common...especially with jujutsu.

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#126076 - 08/25/03 07:20 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
John C Offline
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I have trained in both styles i feel that alot of classic forms of Karate pay too much attention to competition losing the basis of a true fighting art Katas are just done to look good to get grades, and few practitioners have a clue what the techniques mean. I feel that Aikido and JuJitsu and forms of Kung-fu have more practical training designed towards reel combat.

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#126077 - 08/27/03 04:43 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
kempo_jujitsu Offline
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but you cant blame the art of karate, its how people teach and practice it....or how they dont teach it or dont practice it.
karate forms, kung fu forms...same difference, the key is bunkai, breaking down and dissecting the form and learning the real meaning behind the movements. which you will do if you are in a good karate dojo.
you arent going to learn combat karate at a sport karate school.

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#126078 - 08/27/03 05:03 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
John C Offline
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Your right but there are few Karate schools other than styles like GoJu-Ryu who still know the art its not the art its the teachers. Thats why styles like Kung-fu and Ju-Jitsu also Aikido who have still kept their purity, I have found so much translation of Wado Katas within these styles. Anyway its nice to talk with you what is your background and where are you from?

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#126079 - 08/28/03 04:09 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Cato Offline
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You see, kempo - you and I aren't so different in our opinions after all. Your point about it being the "teachers not the art" is exactly the same as my point about there being too many "new" styles around. They undermine and weaken the original arts. That is why I think it is important to at least try to keep to the original art and practice it in its entirity, not water it down by leaving bits out or adding a little of this art and that art to "improve" it. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Karareka are usually keen to tell me that karate is a complete art with throws and locks etc., but you try and find a dojo that teaches it as such. I've seen a lot of karate and I've never seen it practiced with throws and locks. Maybe if people had stuck to the original art I would have?

Budo

PS John - What is Wado ryu Ju jutsu?

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#126080 - 08/28/03 06:51 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
John C Offline
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I studied Wado-ryu Karate, and Zankido Ryu, Ju-Jitsu, I am at present a first Dan in Aikido in Bristol England, are you in England?

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#126081 - 08/31/03 11:10 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Cato Offline
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Sorry, John - I see my mistake now - wado ryu AND ju jutsu not wado ryu ju jutsu (one system). Now it makes sense.

Yes, I am in England (North West), and I trained for quite a while with the IABC who I believe are quite well known down you neck of the woods? (Well, south anyway - Once I get past Chesire it's all the same to me [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] )

I see you trained in wing chun. I took that for a short while and found it a really impressive art. Usually I'm not a fan of Chinese styles, but this one is different, very direct and the total opposite to aikido. Have you managed to train in it along side your aikido?

Budo

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#126082 - 08/31/03 08:31 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
John C Offline
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I love to train the Martial Arts it is a disipline and good for your health but as a practical modern self defence many of them require too much space Wing-chung in my opinion is the best Art for close quarter fighting. Aspects of Wing-chung can refine your evasion so redusing the large movments "Wing Chun is one of the most natural and effective martial arts, simple yet devastating. It was developed for street practical self-defence, however in keeping with Chinese tradition martial arts training also serves as a defence against disease and degeneration, not just thugs and bullies. i.e.: defence inside, defence outside."

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#126083 - 09/03/03 07:31 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
tiger Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 16
Loc: taylor, Michigan , USA
Hi,
I just wanted to say that it depends where you train as to whether you learn to defend against a combination punch. I have seen several schools that teach defenses for this attack, for example if you have ever seen Sensei Segal's students, you would know that there is several techniques that can be used against the combination punch, also I have seen Gozo Shioda, students teach defenses against teh above mentioned attack. When I was taught the defense against the attack I was told it is just a matter of timing once the attacker has comitted to hitting you, you need to block to the outside of the attackers jab and allow his hand retracting to pull you forward to the attacker where you can apply a kokyu-nage. but this is just a thought.

peace and love
tiger

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#126084 - 09/03/03 09:54 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
csinca Offline
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Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Tiger,

I've seen aikido dojo's practice similar techniques. My experience though is that most aikido dojo's don't work with someone that actually can throw a decent combination without giving up their balance.

Add to the mix a problem that my dojo is working through right now. We have historically known what the attack was going to be and then worked a technique from there. Historically, we would say "okay let's work off a jab today" and get busy. We finally realized that at some point you need to start learning to defend yourself when you don't know what the attack is, AND when the attack can be anything (punches, combinations, kicks, feints, takedowns...) AND the attacker has some skill in the above.

If some of you guys have already been through this and developed training methods, I'm looking forward to your responses!

Take care and good training

Chris

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#126085 - 09/04/03 07:20 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
tiger Offline
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Loc: taylor, Michigan , USA
Hi Chris,
You seem to worry alot about what someone is going to do in a fight. nothing you do can change what the attacker is going to do, so why worry. Don't focus on what he going to do focus on what YOU are suppose to be doing. You only have three options, even if he has thousands of techniques, 1. pivot and turn( tai no henko / tenkan ) 2. Enter(Irimi) 3. RUN( feet moving very fast :~).

you don't need to see what the attacker is going to use, move at the first sign of the attacker moving, not after he starts the attack. You must remember that Osensei had poor eyesight so to him most attacks were blurry, he moved off the initial movement of the attacker and just followed the principals of getting the body out of the way first then dealt with the actual attack. So he did'nt care what the attacker as going to do he was either going to enter or pivot. I know it sounds simple but try it. start with having your partner using a straight forward attack for example jab to the face, fronk kick, two handed push, 1-2 punch, DO NO TECHNIQUES, just pivot and try to get shoulder to shoulder with your partner. Let your partner use what ever straight forward attack he wants in any combination, just do your job. I have used caps to emphasize key points, not to be loud with you. DO NOT WATCH THE EYES, look at the attackers center or obi, and you will be able to see his hands and feet, Blur your vision slightly, and move as soon as you see your partner move, it dosent matter if he trys to fake you out either, just focus on what you are suppose to be doing, get either behind him or get shoulder to shoulder with him. After you have learned to turn/pivot and move the body then start to add your waza. I hope this gives you some Ideas.

peace and love
tiger

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#126086 - 09/04/03 10:54 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Cato Offline
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I couldn't agree more. There is a definate tendency to get hung up on training against this style and that style and forgetting that aikido teaches defences to principles of attack and not the attacks themselves. The defences remain the same whatever the attack, someone skilled in aikido shoud stand a fair chance against other style because the style of the attack doesn't matter.

Budo

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#126087 - 09/04/03 01:27 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
csinca Offline
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Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Tiger and Cato,

I don't disagree with the premise that we can only control our own actions and that we should train to execute the principles properly.

I am not advocating or suggesting that we train against any particular style. Rather I suggest two things:

1. train against as many different styles and tyes of attacks as you can.
2. preferable train against someone that can effectively execute the attacks.

In my experience (my own dojo, other dojos here in California as well as other states I've visited, and most of the seminars I've been to) aikidoka often can't offer a dangerous attack. Most aikido training does not teach to punch from the hips, in combination, while maintaining your balance and preferably after some "set-up" work. Rather, most aikido classes I've seen and participated in work a "step right, strike right" shomen attack and then claim that what they just practiced will directly tranfer over to a quick jab-jab-cross with no step but rather a shuffle to close distance.

I do worry about what would happen in a fight in the sense that I want to train for various possibilities so that I am not surprised should I find my self "in it for real".

Regards,

Chris

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#126088 - 09/04/03 01:33 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
csinca Offline
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I was getting long winded so I thought I'd break up the post.

This past Tuesday I was doing some free sparring with a BJJ practitioner. I had always thought I could defend against the takedown fairly easily, I mean the other guys is actually putting his face closer to my knees. I just need to bring one of them up to meet him. Or I drop weight and plant an elbow in his back. Or I just do a little tenkan and let him dive to the mat. Or I drop my weight into him and send him backwards from my solid base, or I drop one hand inside, pivot and away he goes in a nice little kaiten.

Unfortunately I haven't trained much against the shoot and I didn't recognize it until he had my knees wrapped and I was on the way to the ground. I did manage a backroll to keep us going and I ended up on top so all was right with the world at the end. My point though is that all the options I had been taught in the dojo never materialized because I didn't recognize a fairly skilled shoot from someone that is good at it. I was used to my aikido friends coming in like an airplane with their arms wide...

Okay, I've spend my two cents....

Chris

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#126089 - 09/05/03 07:47 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
tiger Offline
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Loc: taylor, Michigan , USA
Hi Chris,

It is frustrating when you believe that you can do something that you cannot, I'm refering to the BJJ event, ego is a powerful thing that effects our judgement constantly
creating doubt, fear,and overconfidence. you learned a valuable lesson that if it was in a real fight you probablly would have been injured, pavement is not as forgiving as the mat. Again I can't stress enough that you must practice the basic pivot and the basic entering, remember your Mai-ai is roughly 6 feet, if that distance is reduced it becomes easiern to attack than to defend. Now did you wait for the attacker to move forward before you attempted to move or did you move at the attackers initial movement, Remember he who hesitates is lost... Which brings me to another point if you want to train on how you will be attacker remember that at least in the midwest every High school teaches football and wrestling, so you should make sure to famillarize yourself with how to deal with a shoot or a quick tackle. First master the basics ans you will be amazed how it will be very hard for anyone to get there hands on you. I don't know if you near Ventura, Ca. but if you can make the trip you should look up Larry Reynosa, and watch his students do Randori, They go full out!!! but you will be able to get some ideas on how to deal with different attacks.

Peace, Love and a scratching post for everyone.

tiger

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#126090 - 09/05/03 09:31 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
csinca Offline
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Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Tiger,

I worked out with Reynose sensei once about 6 years ago at a seminar by Seagal sensei in Santa Barbara. He and I did a little bit of ju waza and I had a blast.

Following my recent experience, I'll be focusing on the shoot; how to do it, how to recognize it, and how to defend against it. Initially I'll be going outside my aikido dojo and working with the BJJ guys to work it though.

I'm certainly not saying that I can't or couldn't use aikido to defend from a wide variety of attacks or styles. I'm just saying that if I want to learn how to defend myself from a single or double leg take down, I need to spend some time learning how to defend against someone that can quickly and efficiently mount the attack.

Once I understand the attack and can recognize it in a free sparring enviroment, then I can begin implementing my principles.

Chris

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#126091 - 09/06/03 06:21 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
kempo_jujitsu Offline
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i may have misunderstood, but i think that if you think you can pivot out of the way of a quick jab, you are going to get punched in the face. its too slow...and the jab too quick. and in a good jab there is basically no body movement from the opponent.

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#126092 - 09/07/03 01:32 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
tiger Offline
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Posts: 16
Loc: taylor, Michigan , USA
Hi,

But if there is no body movement with the quick jab, it becomes a limb strike and is week, and since the attacker is not going to move if you move, you create a greater distance than anticipated, rendering his jab ineffective. For a jab to be effective in a real situation the attacker has to close the distance, and usually when using a jab moves his front foot forward to lengthen his reach.
Even really good fighters like muhammad ali, that kept a low lead hand guard had to move his front foot forward to get the jab in, also if you watch his old fights you will see that Ali uses a backward pivot to move out of the range of the opponents lead hand. Usually Ali would move back keeping to the right side of his right handed opponent and that put him almost shoulder to shoulder with his opponent. This created a greater distance between him and his oponents left hand, this would inturn make the opponent throw his right hand first, causing the opponent to loose his lead hand technique and Ali could quickly counter.

Even the renound kempo Grandmaster Seiyu Oyata, uses evasion over meeting a jab with a block, he will make a 3 to 5 inch turn or about a 10 degree angle, that is just enough to get out of range of the jab and then knock the attacker out with a tuite technique.
Pivoting and turning are major techniques in karate kata like Chinto, Wanshu, Gojushiho,and the Pinans. The key is to work on timing, and foot work. I know that in my short 30 years in the martial arts I have pivoted out of the way of many kicks, punches, jabs, I don't claim to be great but I know if I can do it, you can do it, It just takes practice....

peace and love

tiger

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#126093 - 09/07/03 07:33 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
csinca Offline
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Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Tiger,

I agree that body movement (tai sabaki) and control of ma'i are preferable to blocking. Unfortunately I'm not as skilled in them as my shins would like me to be! In the last six months that I've been adding some sparring with TKD/Wado Ryu folks, I've found that since I'm used to hand strikes, I'm fairly successful in moving rather than blocking. Now I'm trying to develop the same against kicks... Time and Practice.

Chris

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#126094 - 09/15/03 12:13 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Anonymous
Unregistered


How about using the Atemi (Lounge and reverse punch)against the boxer while looking for an opening to thow him?

-Shotokan

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#126095 - 09/15/03 01:25 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I don't think the boxers perspective is being viewed here. I would like to see what would happen with a karate reverse punch against a boxers straight right. Here is the thing, those who have trained for any time at all, and study movement knows that the punch needs to be thrown from where the hand is, that is why a jab is so effective in opening someone up, a chambered punch-reverse punch has a longer distance to travel which makes it slower, and easier to defend against. Reverse punches are great for learning 'how' to punch and establishing angles in you striking art. To use a reverse punch in a real fight, not a tournament or dojo training, for real, is not the most effective punch. One of the great Martial Artists of our time, Hanshi Bruce Juchnik who was a direct student under Dr. James Mitose, points out the when you punch from the chamber, you actually give the attacker more space and energy to punch, that is why 'cocking' your punches is wrong. Also, the quickest way to a target is a straight line, the reverse punch from fighting stance is still slower than a straight right, a lunge punch even longer. These techniques work fine in the dojo, or at tournaments within your own style, however leave your style and you may find quite a difference. My Okinawan Karate Sensei use to train us for those who like to do lunge punches in tournaments, and its easy to stop in tournament scenario, much less in a fight with a boxer. People need to see the perspective of the fighter they are talking about instead of assuming that what you do will work against everyone

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#126096 - 09/15/03 02:25 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Shotokan,

I'm not sure that it would be wise for an aikidoka that spends a limited amount of training on atemi to be within punching range of a boxer for too long. Any atemi that is thrown from outside that range are going to be ineffecive and simply open your defenses. I think in this case you would be playing the boxer's game...

I understand that in your opinion we should be dedicating more of our aikido training to atemi... but keep in mind that in essence, that is all the boxer trains...

Chris

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#126097 - 02/06/04 09:46 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
MicDiesle Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/05/04
Posts: 2
Loc: Cincinnati,Ohio USA
Ok the topic seems like common sense to me.The best of the best is simply hybrid.All MA's are good in thier particalar field of speciallity but to truely be a master at any you must have knowledge of all.My training is mainly BJJ but I spar with Kempo,Karate,BJJ,KJJ,and Boxing experts,not only to find the weaknesses in thier methods but to recognise thier strengths and tendincies.Cross training is in my opinion the best form of training in that it puts your technique in a position that you can only find when cross training.My point is this how would someone know thier technique is weak and susceptible to a left hook without being hit by one,or that your susceptible to a takedown without being upended by a hip toss or double leg takedown,without cross training or sparing I feel your training is somewhat incomplete if only your confidence is effected,for example,I know that regardless of the teachings of my opponent I am confortable knowing that if he is a striker I can take the fight to the ground and strategicly take him apart,if he too is a grappler I'll LET him take me down,slam me,or toss me however you want to put it and while he's enjoying his perfect execution I'm enjoying my most comfortable attack position.....from the ground whether it be top,bottom,guard or mount,and the only way to become truely comfortable your execution against any and all styles of MA you must have experience with any and all MA's. MIC

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#126098 - 02/17/04 02:31 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Mr(s?). Micdiesle, I will have to take issue with your common sense I'm afraid [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

I think it is extremely difficult to master even one MA, let alone all of them!! Cross training is fine if you have exceptional ability as a martial artist and can switch between styles of defence, between defence and attack and between the varied principles that undlie techniques from different MA styles. I would also think a little ESP would be handy, so you can determine the "style" of your attacker before (s)he attacks and then defend accordingly.

Out of interest, which styles do you think it most important to train against? Do you train against Muay Thai at the expense of TKD? Would you learn boxing rather than take on a JKD exponent? Or do you train an equal amount against stylists from every art extant?

Budo

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#126099 - 02/25/04 11:57 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Fist77Jiujits Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/22/04
Posts: 12
Loc: Colonia, NJ USA
I have just noticed this discussion. And Although I may be late in the debate, I would like to jump in and mention my experience that may assist a little.
I've been trainning in Jiujitsu for a little over 19 years and coming up in the ranks, I've had to pass a number of required tests to advance. One particular test involves boxing trainning. At the lower levels students are introduced to boxing and trained in the art to give them an understanding of the concepts. At the higher levels, the students are actually tested in their boxing skills and ability to defend themselves against a boxer using various arts in their stand alone form. Karate, Judo, and as it turns out, Aikido.
I am currently trainning in this test to perform for ranking. I am currently at 3rd degree which will require that the test be administered at a high intensity level. No easy basic attacks or wide open punches. Everything is as real as we can try to make it. (Which I hope any self respecting sensei would not have any other way to merit the rank) My opponents will try to take me out as best they can as a boxer and it's up to me to defend myself succesfully.
NOW, here is the delema: Boxer vs. Boxer, no problem. Karate vs. Boxer, no sweat. Judo vs. Boxer, a challenge but very possible. AIKIDO vs. Boxing!! I just hit my wall. For weeks on end I trainned in this part of the test. Each time I tried to defend myself against my opponent (Who is an experience pugilist) I got my face handed to me. I tried all types of stratgies!! I went over and over it in my head. day and night. At home and at work. But whenever I was on the mat, I ended up getting pounded. Each time I either advanced or countered, the Boxer's tecniques were just too quick and tight to allow for any defensive moves to be applied before his second or third punch found its mark. I was absolutely convinced that Aikido alone was not enough to get past boxing. And if that was the case, what chance did it stand against any other striking art??! Karate, Kickboxing, Muay Thai?? I tell you now, I was on the verge, the VERGE of throwing in the towel and publicly stating my opinion of Aikido not being able to cut it against the other arts. That is until I stumbled upon this forum. I read thru the entire debate at least three times and saw so many highly valid points and theories from you all and found that it's such a relief to know that there are so many knowledgable Sensei's still out there to learn from that are not wrapped up in their own systems or self worth to lend a jewel of info or two. While reading this, I came to a moment of enlightment. I thought Aikido in it's purest form could not do it alone. It needed an assist from another art to help set up it's defenses. Another art that employs some substanctial striking. As it turns out I was not using it in it's purest form. To quote some statements from this forum: Boxers train to maintain proper distancing and do not over commit. Whereas Aikido revels in attackers over committing their attacks. That's fine against a street thug that wants to take your head off, but against an experience sport fighter like a boxer it is much more difficult. Also, there is a statement of "It's not the art, it's the artist" that comes into play. If people think that the art itself is the key then they're wrong. It's how you use it to serve your needs that counts. The concept of Atemi (As "Shotokan" mentioned) is something that I had overlooked. Atemi is a huge part of Aikido, although not out on the front line. Without it, any chance of overcoming a boxer will fall to nothing. This coupled with the evasionary tactics of Aikido can make the difference. My strategy was to evade to boxer at all times. This would have him chase you and struggle to position himself to work off any kind of combination. Even jabs to lead him in were a problem. A boxer can dance around all day, but ususally has to position himself close enough and stablize his stance before launching any type of effective assault. It is here that the Aikidoka slips away and creates his proper distance just as the boxer settles in to attack. This can frustrate and tire the boxer, cause him to overcompensate by trying harder to get closer and maybe even overextending himself. The Atemi comes in when you have the boxer thinking that when he gets close, you are just going to run again. Evade, evade, evade, then Boom! Strike and enter. This can be accomplished as the boxer begins his attack or as he settles in for one. Before he attacks, or as he attacks. Either way, the Aikidoka uses the essential strengths of the art to neutralize the weaknesses of the Sport. After this forum induced epipphany was had, I promptly moved to test the theory. I must say that my results in defending boxing with Aikido were improved by at least 80%. Of course, if the boxer sat down and tried to apply the same mentality and theoretical approach by really picking the right strengths to overcome the Aiki's weaknesses, then, those results would also be radically different. I would just like to say that about 3 weeks ago, I was ready to defend my position to the death that Aikido had no business in the ring with Boxing. But after much thought and dissection along with the incredibly helpful insights in this particular forum, I am happy to report that I am convinced that it is NOT the Art, yet the skill lies within the artist. Every art has it's strengths and flaws. How you approach them in comparison is the key. P.S.
I would HIGHLY recommend Trainning in this fashion with Aikido by using a boxer. Beacuse once I got the hang of how to handle one, taking on the standard "Street-style" punches and kicks were a ridiculous snap. In Practice of course.

Thank you all and wish me luck on the test.

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#126100 - 02/26/04 12:28 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
pablo Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 20
Loc: santa cruz, california, US
I train in judo, aikido and jujitsu. I have
to say that if by the time you're a 3rd dan
you still can't defend against a boxing attack
then how effective can this art claim to be.
Its no wonder. If the aikido dojo I go to is
at all typical with its utterly pacifist
philosophy, then its not surprising that
aikido is ineffective. Who the heck is going
to come at you with Shomen Uchi anyway.
We seem to constantly practice defence against
totally contrived attacks. Give me a break!
To be honest, the only reason I'm taking
aikido is to fine tune my movement and body
awareness for judo. For this, aikido is
pretty good practice.
Let the flames fly!

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#126101 - 02/27/04 12:46 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Pablo, I can't say that you are wrong, I would think that there are more Aiki schools like yours than the other. However I don't think you can say the art is ineffective. It may be PRACTICED ineffectively, but it really depends on the practioner and how he applies his art. I can make my Aiki very effective if I choose to, but then again I have other influences as well. Watch Segal Sensei and tell me he is ineffective. I have seen him in a dojo setting and its not fake. His iriminage is from hell, all 6'6" coming down on you. So I think its more of a question of how the art is practiced. I would guess if polled you would find that over half of the Aikido practioners don't really care if it works for self-defense, but do it for other reasons as well. Some do it for controlling an attacker and this works well. Look at a drunk. You can hit him all you want but he may not feel it, using Aiki to effect his balance really makes more sense. In this case its very effective. We tend to compare Aikido with Karate or Jujutsu arts and compare its effectiveness. This is comparing apples and oranges. Each in their own right is effective. The problem in Aikido I see are thse who train softly and unrealistically and believe that they are doing self defense techniques. But again its the practioners not the art that is ineffective. I had this explained to me by a Aikido Shihan. How many fights are you really going to be in, in a lifetime? why study self defense if you will only need it one or two times. Why not train in a way to make your life better?. I have also been told by Aikidoka that they study an art form, not a self defense art. So it depends on how you view the Aikido you are doing. the only problem I see if you practice as an art form, don't believe that you can use it in self defense. You must practice as you play, so in order to practice self defense, you must practice your art that way. By the way, how effective is Brazillian Jujutsu, Sambo out of a ring. Are you going to wrestle around on the floor of the mall? But look how effective it is in the ring or if someone is got you on the ground. So once again its how its practiced. To practice BJJ from the guard everytime is not self defense effective. Start adding takedowns, strikes etc and it can be very effective. Same is true with Aikido

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#126102 - 02/27/04 01:49 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Fist77Jiujits Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/22/04
Posts: 12
Loc: Colonia, NJ USA
I have to agree with Senseilou on this one. Which was my point all along. If you train ineffectively then you will perform ineffectively. It's not the style that does it all for you. YOU have to be the one to use it correctly. Getting pounded time and again until one gets it right proves that. The best thing I can suggest is to train under the most difficult circumstances to get better. If you block every single punch or kick you recieve in practice with ease then something's wrong. As for reaching third Dan and having trouble defending onself, the art can only "claim" to be as effective as the one trained in it. Doesn't matter how high your rank is. You can still get dropped if you're not careful.

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#126103 - 03/01/04 07:27 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
pablo Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 20
Loc: santa cruz, california, US
I accept both of your positions. My
expectations from the aikido dojo I go
to are probably unrealistic, given that
I'm training to be a better fighter.
If you train with compliant partners
then the whole exercise becomes more of
a dance, a spiritual form of exercise.
I've considered looking for an alternative
dojo, perhaps one devoted to Tomiki style,
but they are hard to find. Any suggestions?
I live in the San Jose area.

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#126104 - 03/02/04 09:41 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Tomiki Aikido for fighting......um I think that will not help much more than Aikido itself. Tomiki Aikido is done with a knife, but its sport oriented. When people talk about Aikido in the high school system in Japan its Tomiki Ryu that they are talking about. You get points for this and for that. While it does work Aiki disarms, it is more for sport than self-defense. If you are in San Jose, look for Duran Shihan(my aplogies to Chris)as his appoach is more self-defense oriented, but once again Aikido is what it is, and you can't change the essence of the art. If it doesn't fit what you want, you may have to find something else to make you a better fighter.

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#126105 - 03/03/04 08:58 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Sensei Lou,

No worries. I know the Northern California area has a lot of dojos to offer and I think there is enough there for everyone. I've trained with Doran Sensei at a few seminars and he has visited my dojo many years ago. I've just found that his style is not my cup of tea. From what I know of his background, I would imagine he is very effective though.

Chris

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#126106 - 03/04/04 07:09 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Anyone ever seen a Tomiki aikido competition? I only ever saw a little bit of one,and it was rubbish. Uke just sort of prodded at tori until he was "caught" and dealt with.

I think for self defence Yoshinkan aikido takes some beating, as do the pre-war styles, although I think an aikido purist would find aiki-budo and such like a little too much like aiki jutsu.

Budo

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#126107 - 03/07/04 05:09 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Anonymous
Unregistered


http://www.judoinfo.com/katagosh.htm

Try the off-balancing techiques you here against boxing punches.

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#126108 - 03/07/04 08:08 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
I don't think the boxers perspective is being viewed here. I would like to see what would happen with a karate reverse punch against a boxers straight right. Here is the thing, those who have trained for any time at all, and study movement knows that the punch needs to be thrown from where the hand is, that is why a jab is so effective in opening someone up, a chambered punch-reverse punch has a longer distance to travel which makes it slower, and easier to defend against. Reverse punches are great for learning 'how' to punch and establishing angles in you striking art. To use a reverse punch in a real fight, not a tournament or dojo training, for real, is not the most effective punch. One of the great Martial Artists of our time, Hanshi Bruce Juchnik who was a direct student under Dr. James Mitose, points out the when you punch from the chamber, you actually give the attacker more space and energy to punch, that is why 'cocking' your punches is wrong. Also, the quickest way to a target is a straight line, the reverse punch from fighting stance is still slower than a straight right, a lunge punch even longer. These techniques work fine in the dojo, or at tournaments within your own style, however leave your style and you may find quite a difference. My Okinawan Karate Sensei use to train us for those who like to do lunge punches in tournaments, and its easy to stop in tournament scenario, much less in a fight with a boxer. People need to see the perspective of the fighter they are talking about instead of assuming that what you do will work against everyone[/QUOTE]

You nor the Dr. of Karate understand the objective of chambering. You don't chamber for the heck of it. Usually the gaurd is up...if you manage to seize a hand you twist it and pull it to your hips whilst you deliver the blow...(that's chambering it's trapping/grappling essentially).

That way the opponent is off-balanced giving him a harder time to counter.

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#126109 - 03/07/04 08:54 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I question very seriously if Hnashi doesn't understand the principle of chambering. He has spent a life time working and training with many top Karate-ka. The big issue here is maybe you don't understand what is being discussed about 'chambering'. Every style has its own use of 'chanbering' and I know through all my years in Okinawan Te(Shito Ryu Karate)what chambering is used for, and how it works. The thing here is that if you study body movement and not style specific you will learn much about the body. I will tell you that once I learned about rotation and chambering from Hanshi, my sparring changed and improved to the point I was rearely hit. Once again its about opening your eyes to what else is out there, and not get locked into just what you do. Sorry to tell you but this but the biggest group within Hanshi's group are Shotokan students who were truly excited about learning body dynamics and the science of Striking. Too many school just teach the basics, and to assume people who have trained over 30 years, and in Hanshi's case 45, and Doctor Mitose's case over 50, that they don't undertand chanmbering and Kuzushi, is ludicrous. My guess is that you haven't even heard of Kosho Ryu Kempo or Dr. Mitose. To question me is one thing, I am just a student of the arts, and may or may not see things the way you do, but to question Dr. James Mitose, or Hanshi Juchnik is disrespectful and shows lack of open mindiness. I would think that anyone would show the same respect for any pioneer of the arts that they would like shown to their seniors. I could say to you that Shotokan isn't Shotkan at all but Shorin Ryu with changes for the Japaneese. But with respect for Funakoshi I would never question that he understood what he was doing. I suggest before you start questioning people like Dr. James Mitose and Hanshi Juchnik, you study a bit more!!!

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#126110 - 03/08/04 01:07 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Anonymous
Unregistered


I used to think that the chambering of the hand was just for show (just like you [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] ) but I found out otherwise.

Perhaps, if you do more research on the topic...especially look at chambering in the original art "grasping hands" Karate/Kempo-Jitsu which is like Karate and Ju Jitsu or more precisely To Te Jitsu).

Come on, the fighters of Old Okinawa weren't stupid to chamber their fists only to expose their face, nose, eyes and vital points. They did it for a reason. Otherwise chambering would contradict with Karate's principle of no wasted movement.

If you have some how learnt that chambering the fist is a ready position...that might have been what they taught to the Japanese school children (watered down Karate) after Karate was tamed by Funakushi so that it could survive the ban. The problem is many ill ideas and concepts that were taught to the school children are still taught today in many dojos.

The Karate that is taught out here by Japanese masters is totally different from the art practised in Okinawa. It is totally different from what your Dr. practises.

It shouldn't matter who you question, regardless of their rank or esteem. If you can't question the person you learn from, then it's not worthwhile learning from them.

I only ask you to question yourself humbly: "Can I be misunderstanding the concept of chambering?"

--------------------------
Karate is a fusion of Shorin-Ryu, Shorei-Ryu and To Te Jitsu...maybe even more.

Kind Regards, Shotokan

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 03-08-2004).]

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#126111 - 03/08/04 09:21 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
I haven't specifically been following the "chambering" sub-thread here but you guys have my interested.

Shotokan, I'm not a Karate/Shotokan/Shito guy so could you please give me the highlights of how you use Chambering? What I think you are talking about is when I see Karate-ka bring their fist to their hip (I realize this is could be an overexagerated motion) prior to punching. Is this the chambering you are discussing?

I'm looking at this from an aiki perspective and I'm familiar with the concepts of trapping and gathering. But I'm not sure if that is what is hidden in this movement.

Chris

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#126112 - 03/08/04 01:17 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Shotokan I could care less what you think about me, I can see through the maze. But I will give you some insight on what I "don't understand". You suggest that I seek out information on kenpo jitsu. The man who brought Kenpo Jitsu to Hawaii is none other than James Mitose, the Doctor I refer too. He studied in a Japaneese temple before moving to Hawaii. He is the father of all Kenpo. What I also "don't understand" and need to research more is the 'Father of Okinawan Kempo" Choki Motobu. You see Motobu Sensei was one of the finest practioners of Kenpo Jitsu in Okinawa. His fighting skills are legendary. Motobu Sensei wrote a book entitled Okinawan Kempo(which I happen to have-the original version I might add)which he shows much of his art. Maybe it is you that should research a bit more you would find that the same James Mitose wrote a book "What is Self-Defense" The books are almost identicle and the pictures are even the same. They both approach their karate the same. Yet you say the Doctor of Karate I talked about aren't doing the same thing. I suggest they are and you can't see it. Once again you suggest my research into Okinawan Kempo yet you don't see the HOW of the practice. If you would look at Motobu Sensei's book, his 12 self defenses, you would see what he was known for on Okinawa, his trademark was the lead hand. It was used for blocks as well as strikes, so not to open up or cut down on the rotation. His chamber was at his chest if you notice. Motobu and Mitose alike studied how the body moved. Its no coincidence they both did Okinanwan Kempo the same way. The very art you tell me to research is the very one I am telling you about. You are taking a practice tool of Chambering and defining its movement. Chambering can also be wrist lock done as application or Bunkai, but it doesn't define the chambering movement. You also suggest To-Te Jitsu. If you study your own books you will notice that a salutation has chambering in it, and is shown as a joint locking movement as well. You can't define a movement in just one way, and say thats it. I humbly suggest you study the same books that you suggest I do, and then you may find the secret to chambering. Its funny you seem to understand Kempo Jitsu yet don't even know the true essence of the art or who studied it. Dr. Mitose was indeed doing the very thing you talk about yet you didn't know that

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#126113 - 03/08/04 06:22 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Anonymous
Unregistered


Csinca, yes that is the chambering I am talking about.

Now let me ask you this:

[QUOTE] "You also suggest To-Te Jitsu. If you study your own books you will notice that a salutation has chambering in it, and is shown as a joint locking movement as well. You can't define a movement in just one way, and say thats it." - senseilou
[/QUOTE]


Now, that you have said that. What were we arguing about? That was what I said two posts earlier.

Choki Motobu was not the father of anything. He was one of Itsuo's students who trained along side Funakushi.

Warm Regards, Shotokan

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 03-08-2004).]

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#126114 - 03/08/04 06:57 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Who tells you this stuff, Shotokan?

I recommend you buy Okinawan Karate by Bishop.

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#126115 - 03/08/04 07:10 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by joesixpack:
Who tells you this stuff, Shotokan?

I recommend you buy Okinawan Karate by Bishop.
[/QUOTE]


Perhaps I will Joe, but I'm kinda low on funds right now [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG] I never said I knew everything, but according to the resources that I have been exposed to so far that's what I know.

Motobu might have been refered to as the "father of Okinawan Kempo" by a group of people, but he was not the only Okinawan Kempo master.

Not to sound as if I am bashing Motobu:
He made quite an impression on the Japanese media after he defeated a much larger and faster Russian boxer. Many saw him as a rigidly tough man.

Any source you seek will tell you that Itsou was teacher to Motobu and others who didn't bother to travel to Japan.

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 03-08-2004).]

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#126116 - 03/08/04 11:57 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I know this must seem that I am constantly on Shotokan but the facts are distorted. Itosu refused to teach Motobu because of his reputation. As a matter of fact, Motobu and Funakoshi had quite a dislike for one another and the two actually faced off at one class. Funakoshi felt that Motobu was a uncultivated, ruffian, and Motobu felt Funakoshi spent too much time on Kata, and was not a good fighter. Motobu wasn't even allowed to train with his dad or brother because of his 'place ' in the family. Motobu spent many hours spying on his family and also spent time with Mabuni Sensei who he took much from. There is a famous picture of Mabuni, Motobu and Funakoshi. Notice too that Mabuni was seated between them. However the information you have about Motobu is incorrect. While there are many sources to choose from, I don't think you are choosing the best, or whoever is giving you information, is not giving you the best available. Try reading all of Funakoshi's books especially his book on his life. Karate is My Life I think its called. This will tell all about his teachers and where he got his information from. Also look for Dragon times articles or Classical Fighting Arts. Both are mainly Shotokan based magazines but have great factual articles about Okinawan Karate. I am amazed at how many Shotokan practioners don't know their own history. It is senseless to talk about things that are not factual. Motobu Sensei had a great effect on Okinanwan Karate, and I didn't say he was the only Master. There were many, however in your discussion of Okinawan Kempo, Motobu was one of the pioneers in Okinawa and influenced many in Okinawa.

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#126117 - 03/09/04 05:02 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Anonymous
Unregistered


lol well I guess there are alot of different versions out there of the same story.

My guess is that Itsou and Funakushi were angry at Motobu for trying to teach the citizens of the country that invaded there beloved homeland their secrets. That's just my opinion. There were articles about them here on FA.

Lou, If Itsou refused to teach Motobu then where and from whom did Motobu learn Okinawan Kempo from. If the questions requires too much research forget it. I am just curious to see what your sources state. I haven't done much research on this topic. Thanks for the read.

[QUOTE] "Motobu was one of the pioneers in Okinawa and influenced many in Okinawa"[/QUOTE]

That I can agree with.

[QUOTE] I am amazed at how many Shotokan practioners don't know their own history.[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 03-09-2004).]

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#126118 - 03/09/04 05:55 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
I have read that Motobu was infact a student of Itosu but was thrown out due to his aggressive behavior and street fighting.

Regards,

Raul

PS

Dont feel too bad about being on Shotokan's case. I'm usually the one bumping heads with him [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] He comes off rough be he learns from his debates. I notice that he is using Tode Jitsu now... hmmm wonder where he got that from?!

As a side note to why Motobu and Funakoshi probably did not get along... When Motobu defeated the Russian a local newspaper reported that Funakoshi defeated the Russian (due to Funakoshi's popularity). Apparently... as the story goes Funakoshi never called Motobu to give him his recognition and it rubbed him the wrong way.

[This message has been edited by Raul Perez (edited 03-09-2004).]

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#126119 - 03/09/04 12:01 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Fist77Jiujits Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/22/04
Posts: 12
Loc: Colonia, NJ USA
I am very sorry to intrude. But wasn't this Forum about how effective Aikido is against Boxing? I was just wondering if anyone had any new insights on that?

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#126120 - 03/09/04 12:16 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Nice to see it isn't just aiki that suffers from this kind of pointless bickering [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Having looked at the chambering thread I'm left thinking "so what?". It strikes me that there are so many MA masters, doctors, professors or whatever around that the original founders of these arts must've been kept busy finding time to teach them all!!!

Budo

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#126121 - 03/10/04 06:53 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raul Perez:
I have read that Motobu was infact a student of Itosu but was thrown out due to his aggressive behavior and street fighting.

Regards,

Raul

PS

Dont feel too bad about being on Shotokan's case. I'm usually the one bumping heads with him [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] He comes off rough be he learns from his debates. I notice that he is using Tode Jitsu now... hmmm wonder where he got that from?!

As a side note to why Motobu and Funakoshi probably did not get along... When Motobu defeated the Russian a local newspaper reported that Funakoshi defeated the Russian (due to Funakoshi's popularity). Apparently... as the story goes Funakoshi never called Motobu to give him his recognition and it rubbed him the wrong way.

[This message has been edited by Raul Perez (edited 03-09-2004).]
[/QUOTE]

Oh knowledgable or wise one...how can you not know about To Te Jitsu

Sorry for spoiling your thread Aikido guys [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#126122 - 03/10/04 07:21 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shotokan:
Oh knowledgable or wise one...how can you not know about To Te Jitsu

Sorry for spoiling your thread Aikido guys [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

<shakes head>

Shotokan,
http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001382.html

Maybe this will refresh your memory.

Raul

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#126123 - 03/15/04 12:28 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
I'll take your silence as an apology to your sarcastic comment.

Cheers,

Raul

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#126124 - 04/11/04 11:30 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
aikido_budo1 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 4
Loc: Newport News/Va. U.S.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
I think you've hit on a fundamental problem for aikido, kempo. Aikido was once described to me as the purest form of self defence in that it has no attacks in the usual sense. That means it can appear difficult to see how to set up a lock or such like.

The first thing to realize is that aikido projections rely on overcommittment, aikido locks do not. Leaving aside any ethical discussion, I can apply a technique like nikkyo to a perfectly pinned uke and subdue him. If an attacker grabs my lapel but doesn't over reach himself in doing so my defence options are more limited, but not exhausted.

The point about leading an attacker to overcommit is more relevant to the attacker who wants to punch. Aikido doesn't teach me how to block, so I am vulnerable to a quick puncher. My best cause of action is to keep out of reach and wait until he tries to make up the distance by extending his punch a little too far.

If I am not able to keep proper distance I have to takke a more desicive role. I ca, for example, follow his punch in as he draws it back and initiate a technique from there, over extending him to his third point. However the skill level required to do this is greater than that needed if I were to let him over reach himself, so it probably wouldn't be many aikidokas first choice of strategy.

The real important point about aikido though is that it is not lead by the defender, but depends upon the opportunity afforded by the attacker. If I see an opening for a particular technique I take it, if not I wait, if I can. If I can't wait I utilise an irimi technique as soon as I can, with a good atemi. It is easy to get hung up on the idea that aikido is reliant upon this or that, it isn't because like every MA it is dynamic and changes as the situation demands.

Budo
[/QUOTE]

In our dojo we train to never "over commit " to an atack so that the technique nage has to try to use is never given to him like some gay little dance.You are supposed to take uke's balance from him not be given it freely. Its quite easy as u and others have stated so far, to throw or manipulate anyone who already has shitty balance. I have heard of hard and soft stlyes of Aikido so maybe we are a hard style so to speak but we really focus on not just traditional attacks but street attacks and boxing styles etc....but of course the real issue here in this debate I have come across in your forum is that the point in this whole argument/disscussion is ridiculous. People who practice Aikido, Karate or whatever have no place debating what art is better than the other....like someone else stated- it the artist not the art. Also, competeing against one another or stroking a martial art's ego is futile since no art has any business fighting the other since all were created for- self defence not attack. Also noted-we train how to use atemi quite reg. Maybe I'm wrong but I think it was O'Sensei who said Aikido was 90% atemi?! Regardless of who said it, regardless of what martial art u study- I would say it is important to note that to be good at these arts, it not so much important about who is better than who, or what is better than what,as it is to remember what all these arts were created for in the fisrt place-to defend one's self against attack even if it means taking a life(hopefully never necessary!). So that means these arts are not a competition or a sport but a way of life. Their principles apply not only to physical confrontation but to everyday life as well. Maybe to many people have forgotten about that.I hope I haven't offended any one here. Please be well and have a great day.
Zen Buddhist,Aikidoka and lover of other Martial Arts,
Aikido_Budo1 [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#126125 - 04/17/04 01:50 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Artentreri Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/17/04
Posts: 12
Loc: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Senseilou and Cato

Forever have I always taken both of your opinions to heart, but in this board I had to laugh at both of your bickering. Not disrespectful though, you two seem like you have much merrit to being great friends. I did on one occasion ask my Sensei his view on the difference between Aikido and Aiki-Jujutsu. Well his response was very unexpected. He said that Aiki-jujutsu was a load of Bull-Sh!t. Iy was designed for those who could not master the true art of Aikido. I am more then eager to hear the responses on this one....

~Clay

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#126126 - 04/17/04 03:26 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
My answer is this.................Which came first. If Aiki-Jujutsu is bull shit, so is Aikido, as Aikido is derived from Takeda's AikiJujutsu. I think its in bad taste for any Sensei to say any art is "bullshit" especially when his roots are in that art. Forget technique, approach, what have you, the arts are related and if Aiki-Jujutsu is bullshit , then his Aikido must be as well.

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#126127 - 04/18/04 12:17 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Artentreri Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/17/04
Posts: 12
Loc: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Ah, I guess I deserved that verbal tongue lashing, but my question was sincere, not meant to be offensive. My sensei is very strict at times, but in the rare occasions, seems to be very opinionated when taken off guard, lol. My question is still the same none-the-less though, what is the difference between Aikido, and Aiki-Jujutsu?

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#126128 - 04/19/04 11:15 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
[QUOTE]
Artentreri asked:
My question is still the same none-the-less though, what is the difference between Aikido, and Aiki-Jujutsu?

[/QUOTE]

Well, as someone who made the aikido to aikijujutsu transition, I feel compelled to offer my two cents on this one.

I believe the difference between aikido and aikijujutsu is two-fold:

First, aikido is developed from a subset of the aikijujutsu syllabus. Aikijujutsu includes a lot of aiki techniques, but also a fair amount that rely on ju as "flexible" per judo or jujutsu and some things that involve neither (think bull, china shop).

To me, aikido has taken that subset of aikijujutsu techniques that depend on aiki principles almost entirely and made a career out of exploring them. I think at its highest level it is difficult to distinguish aikijujutsu from aikido, but at the levels occupied by many of us mere mortals aikijujitsu allows us to fall back on cruder, "smash and bash" techniques as needed (for example, if I don't get kuzushi and my attacker can resist my wrist lock, I'm not above whacking him in the knee with a low kick). Since we train to use things like this as needed, we spend a fair amount of time practicing them. This has also helped me develop my aiki techniques, in that it is so damn hard to figure out what aiki is I often approach the matter by contrasting it with what it isn't.

The second major way in which aikido and aikijujutsu differ is philosophical. When we train in aikijujutsu, we train to damage our attacker. The mindset is combative, confrontational, and the destruction of the attacker is not considered an undesirable outcome but rather the inevitable result of his aggression. I believe that Ueshiba wanted his aikido to pursue the higher ideal of cessation of violence through aiki principles. I don't think most people practice aikido with the aim to destroy their attacker, but rather to get him under control and afford him the opportunity to see the error of his ways.

Needless to say this is just one guy's opinion, and I certainly don't claim to be suited as an ambassador for either art. Certainly there is enough variation in how both arts are trained to make the question even more difficult...

My apologies in advance if I have offended anyone.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#126129 - 04/22/04 01:25 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I pretty much agree. The quote that Aiki-Jujutsu was created for those who can't do Aikido is not only disrespectful, but WRONG. I find it really amusing when people criticize their own Sensei or their own styles that they are the direct lineage of and by criticising these things are actually crticising themselves. Aiki-Jujutsu has a different mind set and if you go back far enough, was used for battle. If one looks at Yagu Ryu Kenjutsu, you will find the empty hands of this sword art(often called Torite)is actually Aiki-Jujutsu. However, the empty hands look just like the sword techniques only with empty hands. You can actually see the sword in their hand when they parry or cut to throw. More modern Aiki-Jujutsu is more direct, less circular than Aikido. Another factor is Aikido is a modern art, within the last 100 years, Aiki-Jujutsu much older, therefore has many aspects of an art that may not be applicable today. It also depends on the Ryu-ha of Aiki-Jujutsu. Most people assume Aiki-Jujutsu to be Daito, yet there is Yagu Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu and Hakko Ryu to name 2. So there are many nuainces in each art that makes them different from one another and Aikido. Basically it is safe to say that Aikido is concerned with control or compliance, not with the damage of the body. Aiki-Jujutsu while employing some Aiki, is generally more damage and injury than just control.There is a style of Aiki-Jujutsu Shorinji Jujutsu and Shorinji Kempo both include major atemi waza in conjuction with the waza itself. Comparing the two Aikido and Aiki-Jujutsu is like comparing fruit, each has a little different taste but is still linked together. Most importantly, Aikido was derived from Aiki-Jujutsu not the other way around

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#126130 - 12/30/04 06:15 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Anonymous
Unregistered


Back to the original question... :-)

What is the problem with irimi/tenkan to a non-committed attack? What is the problem with adjusting your ma-ai and using tai-sabaki? Why can you not perform kuzushi on a "balanced" object? Even a stable body can be off-balanced vis-a-vis Newton's 1st law. Don't the laws of physics still apply? Why is it that an attack has to be "committed"?

Even if the attacker strikes and recoils his strike, don't all of the above principles still apply? Why should the principles be non-applicable, simply because it is a "non-committed" attack?

A committed attack is only a learning method. The purpose is to allow both uke and nage to feel the movement.

PS: when I say you, I mean "collectively"....

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#126131 - 01/31/05 02:20 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Anonymous
Unregistered


It seems to me that so many of you are far too concerned with individual techniques. i.e. If he does A I do B and so on. True technique is only accomplished without such mindset. The formal study of Aikido should start only after sufficient training in offensive arts is complete. How can one defend an attack they do not themselves understand. This is a major cause of theological divergence amongst sensei. I do know that atemi or at least a comprehensive knowlege of it,is necessary to produce competent pupils. How many foolish sensei instruct their students based on attacks one would only be confronted with in ancient Japan. 5th dan? that would be like teaching physics to children before giving them basic language skills. Beware of unskilled teachers in all endeavors. How could master Ueshiba have developed such pure art if he had not been instructed in so many arts. How could Michaelangelo have painted his masterpieces without first learning to draw. A stream that is too pure cannot sustain life. Ideology should never block understanding of truth, for ideals mean nothing without truth.

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#126132 - 01/31/05 04:11 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Anonymous
Unregistered


I believe Ueshiba Sensei stated that all river flows from the same source all true martial arts have originally the same purpose defence/safety. and to rubbish another art is against all his teachings students should take what they can use and apply it in there own training.

Also i have not read all the posts (short attention span) but in any situation ie with boxer kick boxer whatever there are always alternatives mainly irimi(enter) tenkan (turn) from an attack personally if facing a boxer, kick boxer or anyone who is a powerful martial artists in these areas (kicking,Punching) then i prefer to enter and take control of them aikido does not simply rely on someone overcommiting but any way an opponent can be put off gaurd or off ballanced can be used and entering close can do the trick for 9 times out of 10. If you enter into a position where your opponent doesnot expect you then u are at the advantage. :P

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#126133 - 02/02/05 11:46 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Anonymous
Unregistered


I find that it is simple to apply techniques to boxers. Simply keep your distance, make them come to you, let the technique show itself, don't look for it.

My good friend is a kickboxer and he allways manages to find himself in a kotegash. I just keep walking back and around, eventually he gets so frustrated that he throws a hook, or a commited jab.

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#126134 - 02/03/05 01:00 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Anonymous
Unregistered


Applying purely Aiki technique to western boxers requires a thorough knowlege of western boxing, and even then can prove difficult. Do what they know box with them and when they are off center...capitalize. I particularly like yonko variations or koyukonage. If they go low for say an uppercut kaitenage is the only way to go. Handspeed and defensive awareness is the key. Remember a boxer will throw fast combinations, you almost always need to strike hard to gain the respect and distance required to make that haymaker into a gaymaker. (no offence to homos)

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