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#126125 - 04/17/04 01:50 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Artentreri Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/17/04
Posts: 12
Loc: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Senseilou and Cato

Forever have I always taken both of your opinions to heart, but in this board I had to laugh at both of your bickering. Not disrespectful though, you two seem like you have much merrit to being great friends. I did on one occasion ask my Sensei his view on the difference between Aikido and Aiki-Jujutsu. Well his response was very unexpected. He said that Aiki-jujutsu was a load of Bull-Sh!t. Iy was designed for those who could not master the true art of Aikido. I am more then eager to hear the responses on this one....

~Clay

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#126126 - 04/17/04 03:26 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
My answer is this.................Which came first. If Aiki-Jujutsu is bull shit, so is Aikido, as Aikido is derived from Takeda's AikiJujutsu. I think its in bad taste for any Sensei to say any art is "bullshit" especially when his roots are in that art. Forget technique, approach, what have you, the arts are related and if Aiki-Jujutsu is bullshit , then his Aikido must be as well.

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#126127 - 04/18/04 12:17 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Artentreri Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/17/04
Posts: 12
Loc: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Ah, I guess I deserved that verbal tongue lashing, but my question was sincere, not meant to be offensive. My sensei is very strict at times, but in the rare occasions, seems to be very opinionated when taken off guard, lol. My question is still the same none-the-less though, what is the difference between Aikido, and Aiki-Jujutsu?

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#126128 - 04/19/04 11:15 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
[QUOTE]
Artentreri asked:
My question is still the same none-the-less though, what is the difference between Aikido, and Aiki-Jujutsu?

[/QUOTE]

Well, as someone who made the aikido to aikijujutsu transition, I feel compelled to offer my two cents on this one.

I believe the difference between aikido and aikijujutsu is two-fold:

First, aikido is developed from a subset of the aikijujutsu syllabus. Aikijujutsu includes a lot of aiki techniques, but also a fair amount that rely on ju as "flexible" per judo or jujutsu and some things that involve neither (think bull, china shop).

To me, aikido has taken that subset of aikijujutsu techniques that depend on aiki principles almost entirely and made a career out of exploring them. I think at its highest level it is difficult to distinguish aikijujutsu from aikido, but at the levels occupied by many of us mere mortals aikijujitsu allows us to fall back on cruder, "smash and bash" techniques as needed (for example, if I don't get kuzushi and my attacker can resist my wrist lock, I'm not above whacking him in the knee with a low kick). Since we train to use things like this as needed, we spend a fair amount of time practicing them. This has also helped me develop my aiki techniques, in that it is so damn hard to figure out what aiki is I often approach the matter by contrasting it with what it isn't.

The second major way in which aikido and aikijujutsu differ is philosophical. When we train in aikijujutsu, we train to damage our attacker. The mindset is combative, confrontational, and the destruction of the attacker is not considered an undesirable outcome but rather the inevitable result of his aggression. I believe that Ueshiba wanted his aikido to pursue the higher ideal of cessation of violence through aiki principles. I don't think most people practice aikido with the aim to destroy their attacker, but rather to get him under control and afford him the opportunity to see the error of his ways.

Needless to say this is just one guy's opinion, and I certainly don't claim to be suited as an ambassador for either art. Certainly there is enough variation in how both arts are trained to make the question even more difficult...

My apologies in advance if I have offended anyone.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#126129 - 04/22/04 01:25 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I pretty much agree. The quote that Aiki-Jujutsu was created for those who can't do Aikido is not only disrespectful, but WRONG. I find it really amusing when people criticize their own Sensei or their own styles that they are the direct lineage of and by criticising these things are actually crticising themselves. Aiki-Jujutsu has a different mind set and if you go back far enough, was used for battle. If one looks at Yagu Ryu Kenjutsu, you will find the empty hands of this sword art(often called Torite)is actually Aiki-Jujutsu. However, the empty hands look just like the sword techniques only with empty hands. You can actually see the sword in their hand when they parry or cut to throw. More modern Aiki-Jujutsu is more direct, less circular than Aikido. Another factor is Aikido is a modern art, within the last 100 years, Aiki-Jujutsu much older, therefore has many aspects of an art that may not be applicable today. It also depends on the Ryu-ha of Aiki-Jujutsu. Most people assume Aiki-Jujutsu to be Daito, yet there is Yagu Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu and Hakko Ryu to name 2. So there are many nuainces in each art that makes them different from one another and Aikido. Basically it is safe to say that Aikido is concerned with control or compliance, not with the damage of the body. Aiki-Jujutsu while employing some Aiki, is generally more damage and injury than just control.There is a style of Aiki-Jujutsu Shorinji Jujutsu and Shorinji Kempo both include major atemi waza in conjuction with the waza itself. Comparing the two Aikido and Aiki-Jujutsu is like comparing fruit, each has a little different taste but is still linked together. Most importantly, Aikido was derived from Aiki-Jujutsu not the other way around

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#126130 - 12/30/04 06:15 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Anonymous
Unregistered


Back to the original question... :-)

What is the problem with irimi/tenkan to a non-committed attack? What is the problem with adjusting your ma-ai and using tai-sabaki? Why can you not perform kuzushi on a "balanced" object? Even a stable body can be off-balanced vis-a-vis Newton's 1st law. Don't the laws of physics still apply? Why is it that an attack has to be "committed"?

Even if the attacker strikes and recoils his strike, don't all of the above principles still apply? Why should the principles be non-applicable, simply because it is a "non-committed" attack?

A committed attack is only a learning method. The purpose is to allow both uke and nage to feel the movement.

PS: when I say you, I mean "collectively"....

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#126131 - 01/31/05 02:20 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Anonymous
Unregistered


It seems to me that so many of you are far too concerned with individual techniques. i.e. If he does A I do B and so on. True technique is only accomplished without such mindset. The formal study of Aikido should start only after sufficient training in offensive arts is complete. How can one defend an attack they do not themselves understand. This is a major cause of theological divergence amongst sensei. I do know that atemi or at least a comprehensive knowlege of it,is necessary to produce competent pupils. How many foolish sensei instruct their students based on attacks one would only be confronted with in ancient Japan. 5th dan? that would be like teaching physics to children before giving them basic language skills. Beware of unskilled teachers in all endeavors. How could master Ueshiba have developed such pure art if he had not been instructed in so many arts. How could Michaelangelo have painted his masterpieces without first learning to draw. A stream that is too pure cannot sustain life. Ideology should never block understanding of truth, for ideals mean nothing without truth.

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#126132 - 01/31/05 04:11 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Anonymous
Unregistered


I believe Ueshiba Sensei stated that all river flows from the same source all true martial arts have originally the same purpose defence/safety. and to rubbish another art is against all his teachings students should take what they can use and apply it in there own training.

Also i have not read all the posts (short attention span) but in any situation ie with boxer kick boxer whatever there are always alternatives mainly irimi(enter) tenkan (turn) from an attack personally if facing a boxer, kick boxer or anyone who is a powerful martial artists in these areas (kicking,Punching) then i prefer to enter and take control of them aikido does not simply rely on someone overcommiting but any way an opponent can be put off gaurd or off ballanced can be used and entering close can do the trick for 9 times out of 10. If you enter into a position where your opponent doesnot expect you then u are at the advantage. :P

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#126133 - 02/02/05 11:46 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Anonymous
Unregistered


I find that it is simple to apply techniques to boxers. Simply keep your distance, make them come to you, let the technique show itself, don't look for it.

My good friend is a kickboxer and he allways manages to find himself in a kotegash. I just keep walking back and around, eventually he gets so frustrated that he throws a hook, or a commited jab.

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#126134 - 02/03/05 01:00 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Anonymous
Unregistered


Applying purely Aiki technique to western boxers requires a thorough knowlege of western boxing, and even then can prove difficult. Do what they know box with them and when they are off center...capitalize. I particularly like yonko variations or koyukonage. If they go low for say an uppercut kaitenage is the only way to go. Handspeed and defensive awareness is the key. Remember a boxer will throw fast combinations, you almost always need to strike hard to gain the respect and distance required to make that haymaker into a gaymaker. (no offence to homos)

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